Is rail travel in the North really that bad compared to the South?

[wellhouse]

Older rolling stock is not necessarily a problem, if it is well refurbished, well maintained, and well cleaned (Consider Mark 3 stock)

The greatest causes of disappointment with services in my part of the world (around Leeds and Manchester) when compared with my local service when I loved in London Commuterland are;

1. Uncomfortably cramped seat pitch in all Northern stock
2. Poorer service frequencies on many routes (typically no better than hourly)
3. Services finish too early from major centres such as Leeds and Manchester - last trains from Leeds are 2129 (Knaresborough) 2222 (Selby & Hull) 2237 (Calder Valley & Hallam Lines) 2240 (Pontefract & Doncaster) 2308 (Bradford) 2309 (Wakefield & Sheffield) 2315 (Ilkley) 2318 (Airedale) 2329 (Harrogate) Yet there is a 2330 to Leeds from Kings Cross, so you can have a later night out in London before returning to West Yorkshre than you can in Leeds!

 

[yorksrob]

Then again I could claim that the London Underground stock is unsuitable for a journey like Cockfosters to Heathrow (around seventy minutes, almost as long as London to Birmingham takes), but I think most of us accept that the 1973 stock is good enough for most passengers (and anyone doing the journey from end to end is going to be in a significant minority).

To be fair, I have my doubts that standard underground stock is really suitable for a journey such as Amersham - Aldgate !

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair, I have my doubts that standard underground stock is really suitable for a journey such as Amersham - Aldgate !

I think the same could be said of the longer journey possibilities on the new Manchester Metrolink M5000s.

 

[Minstral25]

Just a quick bit of research.

Two towns, Redhill and Heald Green, one around London and one around Manchester and both about the same size and distance from their respective destinations.

Annual Season Tickets

Heald Green £952.00 to Manchester Central Zone

Redhill £3,256.00 to London Zone 1

Looking at Timetable both get around 4 trains per hour to their city centre destinations at peak times, but it takes around half the time from Heald Green (14-20 mins) than Redhill (28 - 38 mins).

I guess it will be a 3 or 4 car unit at Heald Green (Standing no idea but as journey time is short not such a problem) , it is 12 or 8 car from Redhill and daily standing.

Even if it is a pacer against a 377 - is it better up North or not?

 

[yorksrob]

Just a quick bit of research.

Two towns, Redhill and Heald Green, one around London and one around Manchester and both about the same size and distance from their respective destinations.

Annual Season Tickets

Heald Green £952.00 to Manchester Central Zone

Redhill £3,256.00 to London Zone 1

Looking at Timetable both get around 4 trains per hour to their city centre destinations at peak times, but it takes around half the time from Heald Green (14-20 mins) than Redhill (28 - 38 mins).

I guess it will be a 3 or 4 car unit at Heald Green (Standing no idea but as journey time is short not such a problem) , it is 12 or 8 car from Redhill and daily standing.

Even if it is a pacer against a 377 - is it better up North or not?

That's a good point. Value for money is an important consideration, and there's no denying that some commuter journeys in the North are much better in this respect than Southern commuting in general !

 

[anti-pacer]

Just a quick bit of research.

Two towns, Redhill and Heald Green, one around London and one around Manchester and both about the same size and distance from their respective destinations.

Annual Season Tickets

Heald Green £952.00 to Manchester Central Zone

Redhill £3,256.00 to London Zone 1

Looking at Timetable both get around 4 trains per hour to their city centre destinations at peak times, but it takes around half the time from Heald Green (14-20 mins) than Redhill (28 - 38 mins).

I guess it will be a 3 or 4 car unit at Heald Green (Standing no idea but as journey time is short not such a problem) , it is 12 or 8 car from Redhill and daily standing.

Even if it is a pacer against a 377 - is it better up North or not?

Heald Green is about 8 miles from Manchester city centre, whereas Redhill has got be over 20 miles from Central London.

 

[Starmill]

I think the same could be said of the longer journey possibilities on the new Manchester Metrolink M5000s.

What's the longest journey you would actually use one for though? And don't come back at me with East Didsbury to Rochdale being all of 80 minutes, because you wouldn't take Metrolink on that journey!

The longest I can think of where you would actually use the tram is still Altrincham to Bury, or possibly something like Bury/Altrincham/Chorlton/MediaCityUK to Oldham/Shaw.

Most of those could be accomplished within an hour.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Only just, and to be honest, half an hour on them is enough for me.

 

[Starmill]

Just a quick bit of research.

Two towns, Redhill and Heald Green, one around London and one around Manchester and both about the same size and distance from their respective destinations.

Annual Season Tickets

Heald Green £952.00 to Manchester Central Zone

Redhill £3,256.00 to London Zone 1

Looking at Timetable both get around 4 trains per hour to their city centre destinations at peak times, but it takes around half the time from Heald Green (14-20 mins) than Redhill (28 - 38 mins).

I guess it will be a 3 or 4 car unit at Heald Green (Standing no idea but as journey time is short not such a problem) , it is 12 or 8 car from Redhill and daily standing.

Even if it is a pacer against a 377 - is it better up North or not?

Yes - Heald Green isn't as far as Redhill... but although I can't speak to the fasts, I've boarded many many peak time stoppers to Manchester at Mauldeth Road (the 07:20 and 07:49 ex Heald Green services) and usually manage to get a seat without a problem, even though its the last stop before Manchester. As long as its a 323 that is (3 coaches). If they put on a pacer or sprinter it might be touch and go if you can get on...

I suspect that most passengers at Heald Green target the 08:05, 08:20 and 08:29 services. It's actually very annoying that Heald Green gets so many calls when other stations on the line are strictly 2tph!

 

[northwichcat]

What's the longest journey you would actually use one for though? And don't come back at me with East Didsbury to Rochdale being all of 80 minutes, because you wouldn't take Metrolink on that journey!

The quickest time you can do it on heavy rail appears to be 1hr25 with only 2 journey options an hour which involve changing, so I'm not sure why you're saying you wouldn't take Metrolink for that journey, if you're saying it takes 80 minutes and it doesn't involve a change. Maybe your considering people who may want to travel with a bike or heavy luggage, which aren't permitted on Metrolink?

 

[Eagle]

The quickest time you can do it on heavy rail appears to be 1hr25 with only 2 journey options an hour which involve changing, so I'm not sure why you're saying you wouldn't take Metrolink for that journey, if you're saying it takes 80 minutes and it doesn't involve a change. Maybe your considering people who may want to travel with a bike or heavy luggage, which aren't permitted on Metrolink?

According to Transport Direct you can do it in under an hour if you take a tram from East Didsbury to Victoria (30 minutes) and a train to Rochdale.

 

[Midlandman]

I worked in Kent for a while many years ago and feel that the big difference is not so much in the quality of the rolling stock (the 4VEP units had a certain notoriety when used on express services) but in the ease of access to the system. I had lodgings in a quite small village but it still had its local station with peak hour through services to London via two routes. In the Midlands or North, you could go through long strings of towns for whom rail service was a distant memory. Some re-openings have changed this (a bit) but the overwhelming influence of London means that places which would have been high on the list of closures elsewhere still have what, in the North, would be thought of as a wonderful service.

 

[cuccir]

I think most of it has been covered now. Travel in the North of England tends to be cheaper and less crowded (only off-peak regular overcrowding that I'm aware of is Preston-Manchester and Manchester-Leeds) or at least less busy; but slower, with worse stock and a more limited timetable, particularly around the temporal edges (early/late/weekends).

There are of course exceptions, and we haven't considered Wales, the Midlands, the South-West, Scotland. I suspect all of these would be cheaper, less busy, slower and with fewer trains than the South-East - it's the London area which is the anomaly here!

 

[tsr]

Just a quick bit of research.

Two towns, Redhill and Heald Green, one around London and one around Manchester and both about the same size and distance from their respective destinations.

Annual Season Tickets

Heald Green £952.00 to Manchester Central Zone

Redhill £3,256.00 to London Zone 1

Looking at Timetable both get around 4 trains per hour to their city centre destinations at peak times, but it takes around half the time from Heald Green (14-20 mins) than Redhill (28 - 38 mins).

I guess it will be a 3 or 4 car unit at Heald Green (Standing no idea but as journey time is short not such a problem) , it is 12 or 8 car from Redhill and daily standing.

Even if it is a pacer against a 377 - is it better up North or not?

As you well know, there are over 4 trains an hour from Redhill to London (either terminal) in the peak, and indeed 6tph off-peak. The prices are hideous, true, but many commuters opt for rather less-expensive zones further out, or simply have a "London Terminals" ticket, which still has validity to many stations in South London. So the combination of factors is trickier than some may think! Also, Redhill is (as others have said) just over 20 miles from Central London on a fast mainline with comfortable rolling stock (bar the 319s, many of which are less than pleasant). Many trains are only full and standing after Merstham - it's rare for me not to be able to choose an AM peak service with a seat if there is no disruption and I have a few minutes of flexibility. Certainly, if the train is 12 coaches long and you arrive in good time, it's rare not to be able to get a seat at all, somewhere, even if it is by the toilet or in a 3+2 section.

I'd say the evening peak and general evening service from London towards Redhill is far worse, with service gaps from London Bridge, London Victoria, East Croydon and (most notably) stations on the Thameslink route.

Last but not least, there are Gold Card and associated benefits with a Redhill-London season.

 

[anti-pacer]

As you well know, there are over 4 trains an hour from Redhill to London (either terminal) in the peak, and indeed 6tph off-peak. The prices are hideous, true, but many commuters opt for rather less-expensive zones further out, or simply have a "London Terminals" ticket, which still has validity to many stations in South London. So the combination of factors is trickier than some may think! Also, Redhill is (as others have said) just over 20 miles from Central London on a fast mainline with comfortable rolling stock (bar the 319s, many of which are less than pleasant). Many trains are only full and standing after Merstham - it's rare for me not to be able to choose an AM peak service with a seat if there is no disruption and I have a few minutes of flexibility. Certainly, if the train is 12 coaches long and you arrive in good time, it's rare not to be able to get a seat at all, somewhere, even if it is by the toilet or in a 3+2 section.

I'd say the evening peak and general evening service from London towards Redhill is far worse, with service gaps from London Bridge, London Victoria, East Croydon and (most notably) stations on the Thameslink route.

Last but not least, there are Gold Card and associated benefits with a Redhill-London season.

Nice to see that said stock isn't good enough for the South East, but is deemed acceptable for the North West.

I do hope the refurbishment of these units will be something special! :roll:

 

[tsr]

Nice to see that said stock isn't good enough for the South East, but is deemed acceptable for the North West.

I do hope the refurbishment of these units will be something special! :roll:

Refurbishments should really help matters. I have read some such proposals with interest and relief. The problems with 319s are due to their lack of effective cleaning (in a recent post, I recently specified the cleaning problems I've seen), lack of effective provision for disabled users, poor seating (aside from some ex-Southern-operated units), lack of proper air handling, worn fittings and such like. All of these things will hopefully be resolved by the time they get to their new homes, and if not, will be much closer to being resolved!

 

[yorksrob]

I worked in Kent for a while many years ago and feel that the big difference is not so much in the quality of the rolling stock (the 4VEP units had a certain notoriety when used on express services)

Those were the days

but in the ease of access to the system. I had lodgings in a quite small village but it still had its local station with peak hour through services to London via two routes. In the Midlands or North, you could go through long strings of towns for whom rail service was a distant memory. Some re-openings have changed this (a bit) but the overwhelming influence of London means that places which would have been high on the list of closures elsewhere still have what, in the North, would be thought of as a wonderful service.

Kent certainly got off lightly in terms of closures (I wonder whether the Medway Valley Line would have survived had it been in the North !), yet that wasn't always the case even in the South East.

Sussex, for example, was decimated by closures, and even today I find it hard to believe that towns like Heathfield and Hailsham could end up off the Network. The lack of radial routes in the Northern half of NSE is also an example of this (surely Luton - Leighton Buzzard would have been useful !).

I remember reading somewhere that the Southern Region was loath to close electrified lines, so perhaps if we'd had a Sussex electrification scheme, it would have retained a railway network worthy of the name, rather than the BML, Coastway and not much in the middle..

 

[stevefreestone]

My south station was Isleworth. My north station is Gainsborough Lea Road. In terms of facilities they are about the same.

 

[HSTEd]

A Class 313 would be significantly cheaper to operate than a Pacer, even though its track access charges are double the latter's.

What this really shows is the need for ever more electrification.
Electric trains age far more gracefully than diesel ones.

 

[185143]

Um. We have Pacers in the south too.

Exceptionally few though.......

In the south you don't have the backbone of the MAIN TOC's Services formed of pacers do you??

 

[Darren R]

Just a quick bit of research.

Two towns, Redhill and Heald Green, one around London and one around Manchester and both about the same size and distance from their respective destinations.

Annual Season Tickets

Heald Green £952.00 to Manchester Central Zone

Redhill £3,256.00 to London Zone 1

Looking at Timetable both get around 4 trains per hour to their city centre destinations at peak times, but it takes around half the time from Heald Green (14-20 mins) than Redhill (28 - 38 mins).

I guess it will be a 3 or 4 car unit at Heald Green (Standing no idea but as journey time is short not such a problem) , it is 12 or 8 car from Redhill and daily standing.

Even if it is a pacer against a 377 - is it better up North or not?

As has been pointed out, your "quick bit of research" was a little too quick!

Out of curiosity I've just done a quick bit of research myself too. By happy coincidence your home town of Redhill has a population about the same as my current home town in Lancashire (26,000.) (According to Wikipedia) Redhill is the same distance from London by rail as I from Manchester (about 21 miles).

If I wished to travel from Redhill into London tomorrow lunchtime it would cost me £8.70 return to Victoria or £10.70 return to London Bridge - with a total of 6tph over two routes with two operators. If I wished to travel into Manchester tomorrow lunchtime from home it would cost me £7.50 - with a total of 1tph over one route with one operator.

Amittedly my fare is slightly cheaper (not much in it though - and there are other options available from Redhill) but I think that most of us up here wouldn't mind paying an extra couple of quid for the same level of service enjoyed throughout the Home Counties and beyond.

I lived in the London area in various locations for several years, and my perception was that rail fares oop't North were not much different in terms of cost than in the London area (although I can't speak for other regions as I have no experience.) Buses up here are ludicrously expensive in comparison - a taxi is often cheaper than a bus fare. (I also found that London cab fares were more expensive than their northern counterparts, but that's comparing apples with oranges.)

It always amused me when I lived in London, listening to locals whinging on about how expensive the trains are and how poor the service is. It costs you more because you get more.

 

[Minstral25]

Turns out Heald Green was a bad example, not really knowing anywhere North of Watford very well I used Google Maps and now realise that it set a very circuitous route. Sorry about that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has been pointed out, your "quick bit of research" was a little too quick!

Out of curiosity I've just done a quick bit of research myself too. By happy coincidence your home town of Redhill has a population about the same as my current home town in Lancashire (26,000.) (According to Wikipedia) Redhill is the same distance from London by rail as I from Manchester (about 21 miles).

If I wished to travel from Redhill into London tomorrow lunchtime it would cost me £8.70 return to Victoria or £10.70 return to London Bridge - with a total of 6tph over two routes with two operators. If I wished to travel into Manchester tomorrow lunchtime from home it would cost me £7.50 - with a total of 1tph over one route with one operator.

Amittedly my fare is slightly cheaper (not much in it though - and there are other options available from Redhill) but I think that most of us up here wouldn't mind paying an extra couple of quid for the same level of service enjoyed throughout the Home Counties and beyond.

I lived in the London area in various locations for several years, and my perception was that rail fares oop't North were not much different in terms of cost than in the London area (although I can't speak for other regions as I have no experience.) Buses up here are ludicrously expensive in comparison - a taxi is often cheaper than a bus fare. (I also found that London cab fares were more expensive than their northern counterparts, but that's comparing apples with oranges.)

It always amused me when I lived in London, listening to locals whinging on about how expensive the trains are and how poor the service is. It costs you more because you get more.

I'd agree to some of that but I suspect you could drive to central Manchester in 30 minutes and find parking. Try doing that from Redhill.

Also I compared peak hour travel at full price not off peak as that is when most trains are overcrowded (north or south). By some odd quirk also Redhill gets more trains per hour off-peak to London than peak (mostly to make space for Gatwick Expresses that often divert through Redhill in the peak period).

I can also tell you that compared to Central London, buses in Redhill are much more expensive - we have regional buses here not TFL buses (except one route which is TFL to Coulsdon and Surrey CC from there)

 

[tsr]

Also I compared peak hour travel at full price not off peak as that is when most trains are overcrowded (north or south). By some odd quirk also Redhill gets more trains per hour off-peak to London than peak (mostly to make space for Gatwick Expresses that often divert through Redhill in the peak period).

Numbers of Northbound morning peak trains per hour from Redhill (all to or via London - any operator):
0500-0559: 3 plus a staff train (occasionally public, as today - Monday)
0600-0659: 5
0700-0759: 7
0800-0859: 6
0900-1000: 5

So not exactly a massive shortfall compared to the off-peak 6tph!

 

[ModernRailways]

One key point is also the wages/living costs down south. In the south wages are higher and so are living costs. People will essentially be spending the same amount as someone up north, the only difference is it won't be the same price but it will be the same (similar) percentage. For example, a yearly wage in the north may be £20,000, in the south that wage would be more £25,000. A flat/house and all the bills attached would take around 65% off that. Season ticket will then be around 25%.

I hate the 377's or as I prefer to call them 'The green trains that smell like wee.' Commuters however will more than likely like them (if they aren't delayed) because they are fast, fairly reliable and comfy enough for a commute.

People in the south tend to complain a lot more when there train is delayed/cancelled even though there is another one in 10 minutes. This tends to be something which a lot of people in the north complain about southerners complaining about. In reality, however by one train being cancelled/delayed it means the next will be even busier. That 10 minute service is there for a reason, the passenger (customer) demand is there for that frequency to be needed because services tend to be busy (standing room only in most cases)!

 

[northwichcat]

A Class 313 would be significantly cheaper to operate than a Pacer, even though its track access charges are double the latter's.

Is that one 313 vs one Pacer or one 313 vs a pair of Pacers? Pairs of Pacers aren't really cost-effective to operate compared to similar capacity DMU formations - the 3 car 150/0s have the same number of seats as a pair of 142s with 3+2 seating.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

As it has been touched on, stock ( or the lack of it ) is the main debate for the North / South divide.

Their seems to be a feeling that the passengers in the North have to wait ages for new stock where in the South East they have been updated on a regular bases.

I have always said I would love to see the responce from Boris Johnson if the crossrail stock was replaced with a number of "Cattle Truck" class 142's

 

[radamfi]

Out of curiosity I've just done a quick bit of research myself too. By happy coincidence your home town of Redhill has a population about the same as my current home town in Lancashire (26,000.) (According to Wikipedia) Redhill is the same distance from London by rail as I from Manchester (about 21 miles).

Redhill though is pretty much joined up with Reigate so the combined towns have a population of over 50,000. Reigate has its own station but is less used due to it not being on the mainline. To be honest, Redhill is not a great example of good service on the Brighton Main Line. Haywards Heath is a similar sized place (including the neighbouring villages of Cuckfield and Lindfield) but is served much more frequently and enjoys Mk3 standard coaches every 15 minutes to Victoria in peak hours.

 

[Mikey C]

The south benefits, in relative terms, from a virtuous circle. London commuter routes are busy, hence a better service and longer trains are laid on, hence more people move to the suburbs to commute, pushing the need for more trains, and so on.

The Chiltern Lines are a good example of this. Better trains, the 165s and then the 168s were used, so more people move to the area to commute into London, so money is then spent on improving the infrastructure and providing more trains, attracting more commuters etc

The disadvantage of this type of process, is that once the low hanging fruit improvements have been made, you run out of scope to increase capacity, and end up with massive overcrowding.

 

[northwichcat]

Just looked at the Northern Rail site - 19 short train formations expected for this evening, although two are for services which have just terminated so will presumably drop off the list imminently.

 

[Class172]

Out of curiosity I've just done a quick bit of research myself too. By happy coincidence your home town of Redhill has a population about the same as my current home town in Lancashire (26,000.) (According to Wikipedia) Redhill is the same distance from London by rail as I from Manchester (about 21 miles).

If I wished to travel from Redhill into London tomorrow lunchtime it would cost me £8.70 return to Victoria or £10.70 return to London Bridge - with a total of 6tph over two routes with two operators. If I wished to travel into Manchester tomorrow lunchtime from home it would cost me £7.50 - with a total of 1tph over one route with one operator.

If we ignore the fact Reigate adjoins Redhill to boost its population, my town of Droitwich has similar figures. With a population of around 23,600 and being 23 miles SSE of Birmingham, we get a total of 3tph off-peak to Birmingham and an off-peak return ticket will cost £7.20 (to B'ham Stns). The average train is either a 3 car 170 or 172.

Let's throw in a third factor then while we're at it: how does the midlands compare to the north and south… *hides*