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Is SPT Daytripper valid on the Caledonian Sleeper ?
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Please accept our apologies for the incorrect information. I have removed the incorrect posts, to avoid confusion.
To clariy:
Mondays-Fridays:
The morning sleeper heading North would not be at a valid time, but then I am sure you already know that!
No problems using the Southbound in the evening.
Saturdays:
No problems at all with the morning sleeper, within the Daytripper area as you say.
Southbound does not run.
Sundays:
Northbound does not run.
No problems using the Southbound in the evening.
No stations are "pick up" or "set down" only, so no issues there.
Seat reservations are "Recommended" but not compulsory (source: National Rail Timetable), but unless travelling at the height of Summer and/or on a popular day (e.g. the Friday before a bank holiday weekend) then you will likely have no problems obtaining a seat. Of course, these are short journeys anyway.
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Reservations are required.
From the Scotrail timetables.
As it is Scotrail staff who will inspect the ticket, I know which timetable I would prefer to look at. Yorkie is always of the opinion that information in the public domain applies, this is the timetable the majority of people will look at, unless you know the NRT exists, you don't know.
Scotrail has made it clear in their notices and publications a reservation is required.
From the Scotrail timetables.
As it is Scotrail staff who will inspect the ticket, I know which timetable I would prefer to look at. Yorkie is always of the opinion that information in the public domain applies, this is the timetable the majority of people will look at, unless you know the NRT exists, you don't know.
Scotrail has made it clear in their notices and publications a reservation is required.
clagmonster
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Table 227 shows seat reservations as compulsory (the black R in the white box with black outline), see: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May11/timetables/Table227.pdf
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May11/References and Symbols.pdf
Which part shows it as reservations reccomended?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Apart from on a Glasgow Public holiday of course.
OK, sorry it does say Compulsory, I got the symbols mixed up (my defence is that it doesn't seem logical to have a bold R in a black box being less restrictive than the R in a white box to me!) 
However having caught that service myself I know that in reality, they are not going to prevent you boarding without a reservation so it isn't really "compulsory" and I am sure the OP will have no problems boarding the train for a local journey in the Daytripper area. I've never had a problem with this train at all. In fact, on a particularly busy train, some American tourists who had not reserved tried to make us stand (we had reserved), and there were people sat in the guards area. The guard certainly wasn't turning anyone away and that was the busiest train I've ever known on that line. From September onwards it's going to be less well loaded than that.
If you don't want to take my word for it, here's paul1609's view.
However having caught that service myself I know that in reality, they are not going to prevent you boarding without a reservation so it isn't really "compulsory" and I am sure the OP will have no problems boarding the train for a local journey in the Daytripper area. I've never had a problem with this train at all. In fact, on a particularly busy train, some American tourists who had not reserved tried to make us stand (we had reserved), and there were people sat in the guards area. The guard certainly wasn't turning anyone away and that was the busiest train I've ever known on that line. From September onwards it's going to be less well loaded than that.
If you don't want to take my word for it, here's paul1609's view.
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This is incorrect. It is still a service train, but with mandatory reservations.
robertbishop
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I've done Fort William-Roy Bridge and back on the sleeper on the Highland Rover without a reservation.
rail-britain
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Northbound it is not normally an issue, if the seats are quiet
I have seen many people boarding without reservations, but equally sometimes refused as already full
However southbound is a different story and you will be asked for your reservation
Therefore, obtain a reservation
Also, you can travel north to/from Westerton and this would be my recommendation
I have seen many people boarding without reservations, but equally sometimes refused as already full
However southbound is a different story and you will be asked for your reservation
Therefore, obtain a reservation
Also, you can travel north to/from Westerton and this would be my recommendation
That's funny, as I've done that train with around a dozen forum members and that has not been our experience. Are you also stating paul1609's account is incorrect?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone who suggests they'll chuck you out at Spean Bridge needs a serious reality check.
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It would be bad advice to advise anyone on here to turn up and expect to be able to board a service marked "Mandatory Reservations Only". Especially with this particular service, where you could be in the middle of nowhere, (although the SPT area is noted).
What's to stop them letting you board at Spean Bridge if the berths are full and no seating left, e.g. around Christmas time....
What's to stop them letting you board at Spean Bridge if the berths are full and no seating left, e.g. around Christmas time....
Well, I've caught it on a bank holiday Monday evening in Summer, it was absolutely heaving with people stood/sat anywhere they could but no-one was turned away. The claim is that people will be turned away but I see no evidence of that. Of course if the OP was going from Spean Bridge then I'd strongly advise a reservation but the OP is travelling within the Daytripper area, and I am sure he can stand if necessary as it's a short journey. But there is usually plenty of seating capacity on the Fort William sleeper apart from during Summer.
clagmonster
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No worries, I prepared to believe the experience of those who have used the service, its a good few years since I last used the Fort Bill sleeper (it was booked a 37/4 then, just to give an idea). I was just calrifying your post, and providing the 'official' answer.OK, sorry it does say Compulsory, I got the symbols mixed up (my defence is that it doesn't seem logical to have a bold R in a black box being less restrictive than the R in a white box to me!)
However having caught that service myself I know that in reality, they are not going to prevent you boarding without a reservation so it isn't really "compulsory" and I am sure the OP will have no problems boarding the train for a local journey in the Daytripper area. I've never had a problem with this train at all. In fact, on a particularly busy train, some American tourists who had not reserved tried to make us stand (we had reserved), and there were people sat in the guards area. The guard certainly wasn't turning anyone away and that was the busiest train I've ever known on that line. From September onwards it's going to be less well loaded than that.
If you don't want to take my word for it, here's paul1609's view.
Just to complicate things a little further...
I would in fact be doing a day return Edinburgh-Ardlui.[I don't think there is a ticket for this?]
Can I split this as:
Day return Edinburgh-Croy [Croy is within the area]
SPT Daytripper
When presumably the sleeper is going through Croy but is not a stop.
Note the Daytripper specifically says:
so the Daytripper appears to be valid right up to the point the sleeper physically exits the area.
I would in fact be doing a day return Edinburgh-Ardlui.[I don't think there is a ticket for this?]
Can I split this as:
Day return Edinburgh-Croy [Croy is within the area]
SPT Daytripper
When presumably the sleeper is going through Croy but is not a stop.
Note the Daytripper specifically says:
so the Daytripper appears to be valid right up to the point the sleeper physically exits the area.
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Not valid.
Split tickets are covered under NRCoC:
1) They are not both zonal tickets
2) The train does not call at the split/boundary point
3) It is not a season.
clagmonster
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That would not be a valid combination on the sleeper. For a combination of tickets to be valid, they must "cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."
The Edinburgh-Croy ticket is not a zonal ticket, so clause a) is ruled out, as you rightly say the train does not call at Croy so clause b) is ruled out and neither ticket is a season ticket so clause c) is ruled out.
There are tickets available for Edinburgh-Ardlui, is travelling on a weekend, or after 09:15 on a weekday, you should buy a saver return for £42.80, if travelling on a weekday before 09:15 you should buy an open return for £49.10. There are also advance singles available which start at £16.10 in each direction.
Alternatively, if you are returning the same day, you may buy:
Edinburgh-Westerton cheap day return (not valid to leave Edinburgh/Glasgow before 09:15 or between 16:42-18:09 or at 18:15 Mondays-Fridays).
Westerton-Ardlui day return £16.80
Total £30.50
Edinburgh-Westerton day return £21.70
Westerton-Ardlui day return £16.80
Total £38.60
You may substistute the Westerton-Ardlui ticket with an SPT daytripper if you comply with the Daytripper's time restrictions.
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."
The Edinburgh-Croy ticket is not a zonal ticket, so clause a) is ruled out, as you rightly say the train does not call at Croy so clause b) is ruled out and neither ticket is a season ticket so clause c) is ruled out.
There are tickets available for Edinburgh-Ardlui, is travelling on a weekend, or after 09:15 on a weekday, you should buy a saver return for £42.80, if travelling on a weekday before 09:15 you should buy an open return for £49.10. There are also advance singles available which start at £16.10 in each direction.
Alternatively, if you are returning the same day, you may buy:
Edinburgh-Westerton cheap day return (not valid to leave Edinburgh/Glasgow before 09:15 or between 16:42-18:09 or at 18:15 Mondays-Fridays).
Westerton-Ardlui day return £16.80
Total £30.50
Edinburgh-Westerton day return £21.70
Westerton-Ardlui day return £16.80
Total £38.60
You may substistute the Westerton-Ardlui ticket with an SPT daytripper if you comply with the Daytripper's time restrictions.
heart-of-wessex
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On the note of reservations, I guess it depends on the guard? Some are ok but when I did an ALR and was unaware that the rules changed, I got a right old bashing and was nearly tempted to chuck me off at Watford (only joined at Euston!) as my ALR was not valid on that service, because I had no reservation (contrary to the platform staff who said I could join and sit in any non res seat, which there was many of!)
I got my way out of it as I was genuienly unaware that there was a new rule and the staff on the station said different, so he let me on my way!
I got my way out of it as I was genuienly unaware that there was a new rule and the staff on the station said different, so he let me on my way!
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Nope.
For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket
(excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
.
John @ home
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You can certainly use an
A single between Westerton and Glasgow would not help because you are allowed to combine single tickets only where the train calls and the 2354 Westerton - Edinburgh 0050 sleeper has no intermediate stops.
The question is whether you can use the return portion of an Off-Peak Day Return Edinburgh - Glasgow Cen/QSt on the 2354 Westerton - Edinburgh 0050 sleeper, when a note on the National Routeing Guide's map ZZ states that the train does not go through Glasgow Queen Street. The note says:
The only relevant Easement I can find is:
Whether this is intended to mean that passengers using the sleeper southbound from Glasgow may start their journey with a Glasgow - Westerton service is a matter of speculation. A possible complication is that, rather than travelling south, a journey from Westerton station (55.905 degrees N) to Edinburgh Waverley (55.952 degrees N) goes slightly north. But it appears to be southbound according to the railway.
It is possible to interpret these rules to mean that the return portion of an Off-Peak Day Return Edinburgh - Glasgow Cen/QSt is valid on the 2354 Westerton - Edinburgh 0050 sleeper. But I would seek confirmation from ScotRail before attempting to make that journey.
Thanks John,
I had just come across 20011, and think it does make the return ticket valid (and cheaper!).
It does seem rather well hidden though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I presume the "permitted doubling back" effectively refers to the piece of track between Westerton and the fork for GLQ and Edinburgh.
I had just come across 20011, and think it does make the return ticket valid (and cheaper!).
It does seem rather well hidden though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I presume the "permitted doubling back" effectively refers to the piece of track between Westerton and the fork for GLQ and Edinburgh.
I did the FW sleeper afew weeks ago and done it several times in the past within scotland. Have I ever had a reservation?. Twice in 1999, but only once since when I joined off the Aberdeen when travelling from the south.
The last time I did it, I boarded at Westerton without a res, and had no problems, and there were plenty of seats available, in all only about 6-10 seats were reserved and its always been the case whenever ive joined at Edinburgh and Glasgow. Sometimes its been totally unreserved.
The last time I did it, I boarded at Westerton without a res, and had no problems, and there were plenty of seats available, in all only about 6-10 seats were reserved and its always been the case whenever ive joined at Edinburgh and Glasgow. Sometimes its been totally unreserved.
Doubling back is defined as passing through the same station twice, it isn't to do with track.
For example, Liverpool Lime St Low level to Liverpool South Parkway, to Liverpool Lime St high level is doubling back, while in contrast to this York to Doncaster to Selby is not doubling back, though you do go back on the same stretch of track for about 10 miles.
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