Is there any compulsion to follow the whole booked Advance itinerary when the ticket just says "train x & connections"

[fandroid]

Advance Single for Lincoln to Basingstoke today, bought on the Forum's ticket site. There was just one coupon for the ticket and schedule and it said 11.27 Lincoln to Kings Cross & connections.

The problem came with the "& connections". The emailed itinerary, which the email told me I must follow, comprised arrival KGX at 13.22 depart Waterloo at 14.44, arrive Basingstoke at 15.58.

Experienced as I am on Tube journeys from KGX to WAT, I knew that 1hr 22 mins was, even allowing some leeway, way too much.

The temptation was to interpret "& connections" as a licence to go for the first practical Basingstoke train out of Waterloo at 14.09. Would I have been right?

As it turned out there was chaos both sides of London and my ticket was never checked anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

The temptation was to interpret "& connections" as a licence to go for the first practical Basingstoke train out of Waterloo at 14.09. Would I have been right?

Arguably the correct schedule should be followed, although with no evidence of what that was, it is difficult for anyone to check that.

Where a reservation is shown on the ticket it must be followed regardless of the operator, unless there are publicised easements.

In practice, the timings you have given don't appear to match to today's timetable. There may be an issue if you use a reservable connection and don't have a reservation for that train, as then it would be obvious that that isn't what your original booking has.

 

[fandroid]

Sorry, the itinerary actually originally said catch the 14.41 from Waterloo (terminating at Basingstoke), and the one I thought I could have caught was the 14.06 to Exeter.

I did get a message before my departure for Lincoln that told me my journey south was subject to a timetable change which meant "I could miss my connection". A bit of a joke really as it was changed to a 14.30 Waterloo departure which would actually have made my connection a bit less tedious!

I have got used recently to having specific SWR trains listed on the coupons for Advance tickets involving journeys across London and beyond even though there's no seat reservations on SWR.

And that is what I got for the northbound journey. It even specified a change at Clapham Junction for Victoria - a connection I'd just never choose for myself, preferring the Tube for all the clever stuff between mainline termini.

As it's no longer the norm, I wondered what the significance of the "& connections" was.

 

[JonathanH]

As it's no longer the norm, I wondered what the significance of the "& connections" was.

It is difficult to say whether the "& connections" is really aimed at the user or not, or is simply part of the purchase process. The naming of the main operator is certainly to signify that the journey must include that operator. For example, many LNER & connections tickets are not available to use Thameslink or Great Northern between London and Peterborough, presumably because people used to be able to specify "Via St Neots" to get a cheaper fare.

Compare these three fare levels for Lincoln to Basingstoke, taken from BRFares. On one the connection is valid on any TOC, another is valid on most TOCs, and the third a smaller number of TOCs, specifically not including Thameslink and Great Northern.



[Screenshots show information from BRFares about which connecting operators are valid for a specific tier of "LNER & Connections" advance ticket.]

As you note, some advance tickets don't print "Operator & Connections" any more and instead have text which says the ticket is valid on booked trains only.

The best thing is to take notice of the connections the booking engine is offering at the time of booking and make sure that you have the most appropriate connections booked in the first place, whether with regard to times or fare, given that the connections specified, rather than the trunk leg of the journey, can sometimes dictate the overall cost .

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, the itinerary actually originally said catch the 14.41 from Waterloo (terminating at Basingstoke), and the one I thought I could have caught was the 14.06 to Exeter....

Notwithstanding the disruption today, on any other occasion I would seek permission of the on-board staff before boarding an earlier train.

I did get a message before my departure for Lincoln that told me my journey south was subject to a timetable change which meant "I could miss my connection". A bit of a joke really as it was changed to a 14.30 Waterloo departure which would actually have made my connection a bit less tedious!

If the train in your itinerary is cancelled, you may take the train before, or after; if it is retimed then again you may take one at a more suitable time, if applicable and as appropriate.

I have got used recently to having specific SWR trains listed on the coupons for Advance tickets involving journeys across London and beyond even though there's no seat reservations on SWR.

And that is what I got for the northbound journey. It even specified a change at Clapham Junction for Victoria - a connection I'd just never choose for myself, preferring the Tube for all the clever stuff between mainline termini.

Next time, you can specify via: Waterloo.

I always suggest checking you are happy with the itinerary, before purchasing.

As it's no longer the norm, I wondered what the significance of the "& connections" was.

It allows connecting services, as per the itinerary.

If the itinerary offered isn't to your liking, it's worth changing the advanced settings, to see if you can generate one that more suits your preferences.

 

[Haywain]

Compare these three fare levels for Lincoln to Basingstoke, taken from BRFares. On one the connection is valid on any TOC, another is valid on most TOCs, and the third a smaller number of TOCs, specifically not including Thameslink and Great Northern.

The difference between the ticket types you have shown is that they were set up at different times, with the paperwork almost certainly completed by different people. As far as I know there is no actual difference in the availability of the fares and if there is, it is likely to be accidental.

 

[fandroid]

It has taught me to be careful to check the itinerary and specify the route more carefully. As Basingstoke - Waterloo is home territory for me I was operating on auto-pilot!

LNER did their level best to enable my journey yesterday. The 11.27 was cancelled the night before, so buses were provided to Newark. As they arrived there, a southbound train from Leeds pulled in (doing an extra stop) and we all piled on. It also stopped additionally at Peterborough.

Trains at Waterloo were all over the place but I still got home roughly as originally scheduled.


As did the rest of the family heading in different directions. In spite of the problems, the railways did OK.

 

[Snow1964]

I too have had the and connections, which seems to be on printed tickets (rather than e tickets).

I too understand the rules say should follow the itinerary only, but the itinerary is on a separate document.

The ticket doesn't have a train listed, or seat number or Aztec code that can be scanned, Just a date. It is more akin to a car park ticket, get a ticket and park in any space you like.

In practice you are only required to show valid tickets, not emails, so if only have full itinerary by email (because not printed anywhere on ticket) then if you used a different connection, no one would know. But really should wait for later connection per itinerary and hope they run it on time, rather than using first train that comes along.

I have just checked the tickets I hold for a trip to Bond Street in January, the itinerary has a specific Elizabeth line train, but will probably use first one that comes along. The printed tickets don't specify the Elizabeth line time, but the other trains are listed.

 

[redreni]

[...]
I always suggest checking you are happy with the itinerary, before purchasing.

It allows connecting services, as per the itinerary.

If the itinerary offered isn't to your liking, it's worth changing the advanced settings, to see if you can generate one that more suits your preferences.

Good advice, but increasingly I find myself also experimenting with combinations of Advance tickets covering the longest leg of the journey on the main intercity operator(s), in combination with separate, flexible day single or return tickets. I'm often prepared to pay a bit more for this.

There are plenty of occasions where connections for which you can't get a valid itinerary (because they are too tight) turn out to be possible on the day. I wouldn't make plans that relied on making an unofficial connection, but I want to be able to take advantage of unofficial connections where I can (e.g. if my train gets in a bit early and/or the next train leaves a bit late, or I can make a connection in less than the official minimum connection time). I don't know why the rail industry is making this into an issue when it never used to be a problem?

Last year I had to spend significantly longer than I wanted to at Bedford station after travelling down from Scunthorpe to St Neots (where all LNER trains were terminating as there was a planned closure of the ECML south of St Neots) and taking a replacement bus to Bedford. The bus transfer took about 15 minutes rather than the 40 specified on the itinerary. I could have connected with an East Midlands train to St Pancras so I asked staff if that would be okay and they said no, which didn't surprise me too much. What did surprise me was that they said my ticket also wouldn't be valid on either of the two southbound Thameslink trains that were due to leave before my booked train.

The effect of this inflexible approach was simply to make a journey that was already far slower than normal because of engineering work, far slower than it needed to be.

 

[DelW]

The best thing is to take notice of the connections the booking engine is offering at the time of booking and make sure that you have the most appropriate connections booked in the first place, whether with regard to times or fare, given that the connections specified, rather than the trunk leg of the journey, can sometimes dictate the overall cost .

I always suggest checking you are happy with the itinerary, before purchasing.

It allows connecting services, as per the itinerary.

If the itinerary offered isn't to your liking, it's worth changing the advanced settings, to see if you can generate one that more suits your preferences.

The problem with this is that all booking engines seem to insist on very slow cross-London connections - possibly to reduce the likelihood of delay repay claims?

I've usually found that if I'm using advance tickets to travel back into Euston or Kings Cross with onward travel from Waterloo, they will allow at least an hour from KGX or EUS to WAT; whereas (unless the tube is in trouble) I can reliably do concourse to concourse in 20 - 25 minutes, indeed I've done it from EUS in under 20 when I've had to. That means arriving at Waterloo around 40 minutes or more before "my" train departs, and watching two other suitable ones depart in the meantime.

I now usually avoid advance tickets on journeys like that simply because of the frustrating and unnecessary delay. Of course "the railway" benefits from me therefore buying unnecessarily expensive tickets, but 40 minutes spent in the Waterloo Tap tended to blow any fare savings anyway.

Notwithstanding the disruption today, on any other occasion I would seek permission of the on-board staff before boarding an earlier train.

But you have to be on the platform to ask - and if the train crew refuse, you're stuck the wrong side of the gateline. Some Waterloo gateline staff can be stroppy about allowing you back onto the concourse if your ticket won't work the exit barriers.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with this is that all booking engines seem to insist on very slow cross-London connections - possibly to reduce the likelihood of delay repay claims?

It is just to ensure that all users, and not just the fit and able, can make the connection, given the potential for disruption and delays. I can't imagine that delay repay concerns come into it at all.

Generally something like two lots of 15 minutes to get from train to underground plus the likely travel time between the terminals, although it is then further extended by the time to the next connection.

 

[Haywain]

I can't imagine that delay repay concerns come into it at all.

Definitely not - the cross-London timings used now are little different to those that were published in the old national timetables in BR days, long beforeDelay Repay.

 

[miklcct]

Definitely not - the cross-London timings used now are little different to those that were published in the old national timetables in BR days, long beforeDelay Repay.

And I suspect these timings haven't been updated for decades.

For example, West Ham - Canada Water, a short journey on the Jubilee, is listed as 23 minutes during weekday daytime, while a Jubilee train only takes 10 minutes for the journey. I suspect that this time was the time required back before the extension where a change at Whitechapel for the East London Line, when it belonged to the Underground, was needed, while West Ham - Whitechapel (a direct District transfer) isn't listed at all.

 

[Hadders]

And I suspect these timings haven't been updated for decades.

For example, West Ham - Canada Water, a short journey on the Jubilee, is listed as 23 minutes during weekday daytime, while a Jubilee train only takes 10 minutes for the journey. I suspect that this time was the time required back before the extension where a change at Whitechapel for the East London Line, when it belonged to the Underground, was needed, while West Ham - Whitechapel (a direct District transfer) isn't listed at all.

The timings have to account for someone alighting from the wrong end of the train at West Ham, wallking through a station they're not familiar with, standing on escalators not walking up them, while carrying luggage. There also needs to be a provision built in for arriving on the Jubilee Line platform just a a train is pulling out so you have the maximum wait for the next train.

I agree that a regular traveller can make a cross London transfer faster that the time allowed but I bet the majority of 'normal' passengers would say the time allowed is too tight.

 

[Mainline421]

The temptation was to interpret "& connections" as a licence to go for the first practical Basingstoke train out of Waterloo at 14.09. Would I have been right?

If it's a paper ticket I'd argue yes, I have no idea what connections were used to generate the ticket for many advances I've bought from ticket offices.

 

[miklcct]

If it's a paper ticket I'd argue yes, I have no idea what connections were used to generate the ticket for many advances I've bought from ticket offices.

It is a grey area.

Some trains from Waterloo to Basingstoke (those continuing further) are reservable so if it is "chosen" a reservation should be made, but it is impossible to know from the ground, without prior knowledge, that a certain train is reservable without referring to the timetable.

 

[blueberry11]

If going from Cromer to Sheffield, it says 'Only valid on booked EMR services and required connecting services.'. What if the GA (Greater Anglia) train is causing you to miss the booked EMR train or it arrives 1 min before the EMr departure, (which is the first leg)?

edited to add: how would delay repay work in this case?

(While the GA Bittern Line train for sure is rarely delayed or cancelled.)

 

[JonathanH]

If going from Cromer to Sheffield, it says 'Only valid on booked EMR services and required connecting services.'. What if the GA (Greater Anglia) train is causing you to miss the booked EMR train or it arrives 1 min before the EMr departure, (which is the first leg)?

(While the GA Bittern Line train for sure is rarely delayed or cancelled.)

If the Greater Anglia train is delayed or cancelled causing you to miss the connection, you would speak to the guard or to someone on the help point at Norwich station to endorse you to take a later EMR service.

The itinerary you have for the through journey won't allow a connection which is tighter than the minimum connection time at Norwich.

 

[blueberry11]

If the Greater Anglia train is delayed or cancelled causing you to miss the connection, you would speak to the guard or to someone on the help point at Norwich station to endorse you to take a later EMR service.

The itinerary you have for the through journey won't allow a connection which is tighter than the minimum connection time at Norwich.

Well, it seems that the between the time you get off the GA train and the EMR train leaving is ~18 min, which is definitely more than the minimum connection time. But would you be expected to take the EMR train if the delayed GA train arrived 1 min before EMR departs, whcih is what i stated earlier? I also edited it just before/after you posted the comment about delay repay

 

[Snow1964]

Well, it seems that the between the time you get off the GA train and the EMR train leaving is ~18 min, which is definitely more than the minimum connection time. But would you be expected to take the EMR train if the delayed GA train arrived 1 min before EMR departs, whcih is what i stated earlier? I also edited it just before/after you posted the comment about delay repay

No, if below minimum connection time, then might still be able to catch it, but if miss defined connection, then speak to someone about getting next practical train is rule that applies.

You are not suddenly abandoned at a connecting point with no valid ticket to continue your journey (although have been instances of certain rail staff being less than helpful, making customers feel abandoned which is unacceptable).

 

[yorkie]

Well, it seems that the between the time you get off the GA train and the EMR train leaving is ~18 min, which is definitely more than the minimum connection time. But would you be expected to take the EMR train if the delayed GA train arrived 1 min before EMR departs, whcih is what i stated earlier? I also edited it just before/after you posted the comment about delay repay

If you miss a train, due to a previous train being delayed, you may take the next available/applicable service.

Usually this would be obvious; if anyone is ever unsure, I would suggest creating a thread here, stating the tickets held, booked itinerary and travel details.

 

[xotGD]

If the Greater Anglia train is delayed or cancelled causing you to miss the connection, you would speak to the guard or to someone on the help point at Norwich station to endorse you to take a later EMR service.

if miss defined connection, then speak to someone about getting next practical train is rule that applies.

I wouldn’t feel the need to speak to a member of staff in this situation. I've missed my connection due to delayed arrival - I catch the next train. When the guard comes round, I tell them.

The only time I would feel the need to speak to someone is if I had an operator specific ticket and wanted to travel on a different operator.

 

[cactustwirly]

Advance Single for Lincoln to Basingstoke today, bought on the Forum's ticket site. There was just one coupon for the ticket and schedule and it said 11.27 Lincoln to Kings Cross & connections.

The problem came with the "& connections". The emailed itinerary, which the email told me I must follow, comprised arrival KGX at 13.22 depart Waterloo at 14.44, arrive Basingstoke at 15.58.

Experienced as I am on Tube journeys from KGX to WAT, I knew that 1hr 22 mins was, even allowing some leeway, way too much.

The temptation was to interpret "& connections" as a licence to go for the first practical Basingstoke train out of Waterloo at 14.09. Would I have been right?

As it turned out there was chaos both sides of London and my ticket was never checked anyway.

It depends if your Waterloo to Basingstoke train has a reservation printed on your ticket or not.

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn’t feel the need to speak to a member of staff in this situation. I've missed my connection due to delayed arrival - I catch the next train. When the guard comes round, I tell them.

The only time I would feel the need to speak to someone is if I had an operator specific ticket and wanted to travel on a different operator.

Agreed; if it's the same operator then no need to say anything unless asked.