Is there any split ticketing retailers who can search semi-flex fares?

[miklcct]

Some routes offer semi-flex fares which is only valid on the booked train on the outbound but is flexible on the return, which can be both cheaper than buying an advance and a flexible single and cheaper than buying an off-peak return.

Now I'm finding I'm wasting too much time in my advance train tickets and want to avoid that in the future.

For example, I found myself leaving the event one hour earlier than expected but because I'm using advance tickets, I have wasted two hours to wait for the specified trains (because I had to add margin after the local bus timetable at my origin station, and at the cross-London transfer as well).

In such case, open returns will be my best because my events are time critical that I am happy to buy advance tickets with safe connections, but after finishing the event I want to get home ASAP.

Another related question is that, TrainSplit works by generating timed itineraries and finding the splits even in flexible ticket mode that the splits generated may not be helpful (for example, if the ticket is split at stations where not all trains call at). I'd like to know which is the likely fastest route to make the specified journey in a specified time period and which stations do all trains on the specified route call at, and get a combination of flexible split tickets which will work for every departure, i.e. if I specify "York to Bournemouth departing between tomorrow 16:00 - 20:00", the software will first search the fastest valid journeys (i.e. which isn't overtaken), calculating the likelihood of taking each journey arriving at the station anytime between the period (e.g. if journey A departs at 40 past each hour, and journey B departs at 00 past each hour, the chance of taking journey A will be 2 times to journey B), and generate splits which have the highest probability to work for the next available journey.

For example, from York to Bournemouth, on the fastest route, the only possible split points where all trains call at on a normal timetable include London, Winchester, Southampton Airport, Southampton Central only, and I won't want tickets splitting at any other stations for a flexible journey.

Are there any retailers which can meet my need, which generates split tickets for a fixed-time journey outward, and a flexible return journey which has the highest probability to work with the next fastest train?

 

[Watershed]

Some routes offer semi-flex fares which is only valid on the booked train on the outbound but is flexible on the return, which can be both cheaper than buying an advance and a flexible single and cheaper than buying an off-peak return.

Now I'm finding I'm wasting too much time in my advance train tickets and want to avoid that in the future.

For example, I found myself leaving the event one hour earlier than expected but because I'm using advance tickets, I have wasted two hours to wait for the specified trains (because I had to add margin after the local bus timetable at my origin station, and at the cross-London transfer as well).

In such case, open returns will be my best because my events are time critical that I am happy to buy advance tickets with safe connections, but after finishing the event I want to get home ASAP.

Another related question is that, TrainSplit works by generating timed itineraries and finding the splits even in flexible ticket mode that the splits generated may not be helpful (for example, if the ticket is split at stations where not all trains call at). I'd like to know which is the likely fastest route to make the specified journey in a specified time period and which stations do all trains on the specified route call at, and get a combination of flexible split tickets which will work for every departure, i.e. if I specify "York to Bournemouth departing between tomorrow 16:00 - 20:00", the software will first search the fastest valid journeys (i.e. which isn't overtaken), calculating the likelihood of taking each journey arriving at the station anytime between the period (e.g. if journey A departs at 40 past each hour, and journey B departs at 00 past each hour, the chance of taking journey A will be 2 times to journey B), and generate splits which have the highest probability to work for the next available journey.

For example, from York to Bournemouth, on the fastest route, the only possible split points where all trains call at on a normal timetable include London, Winchester, Southampton Airport, Southampton Central only, and I won't want tickets splitting at any other stations for a flexible journey.

Are there any retailers which can meet my need, which generates split tickets for a fixed-time journey outward, and a flexible return journey which has the highest probability to work with the next fastest train?

In a word, no. Splitting is, in the grand scheme of things, already a rather niche market and I doubt that any retailer is going to be able to economically produce accredited software such as what you describe.

TrainSplit has a lot of Advanced options you can play with, to achieve much the same result. For example you can stipulate that you only want itineraries which don't involve stopping at Peterborough (and therefore splits will not be suggested there). But otherwise I can only suggest combining TrainSplit, FastJP and BR Fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there many of these? Isn't it just SWR that does them? Best thing would be for them to go away.

 

[Hadders]

Virgin Trains used to do such a ticket, initially called the Saver Half Return. It could only be purchased online and had to be purchased with an Advance ticket in the opposite direction. It was priced at half the cost of an off peak return.

It was an absolutely ideal ticket and was very popular.

Unfortunately Avanti believed it was too complicated for people to understand and simplified it by removing the requirement for it to be purchased with an Advance (a good move) but at the same time increasing the cost by 20% (bad).

This is a classic example of the sort of thing that happens when fares are simplified.

 

[Haywain]

Unfortunately Avanti believed it was too complicated for people to understand and simplified it by removing the requirement for it to be purchased with an Advance (a good move) but at the same time increasing the cost by 20% (bad).

Not strictly true - they withdrew the Saver Half and reduced the price of Off Peak Singles but to a level higher than the Saver Half.

 

[Hadders]

Not strictly true - they withdrew the Saver Half and reduced the price of Off Peak Singles but to a level higher than the Saver Half.

Technically you're correct. The reality was that prior to the changes the fares were (taking an Off Peak Return price of £100):

Off Peak Single £99
Off Peak Single (old SVH) £45
Off Peak Return £100

What we now have is:
Off Peak Single £70
Off Peak Return £100

(Note I initially thought the new Off Peak Single was priced at 60% of a return, it's actually 70%)

By my reckoning it's a significant price increase for someone wanting an Advance in one direction and a flexible ticket for their return. A passenger genuinely wanting a flexible single does pay less but to be honest under the old system a savvy passenger would purchase the cheapest Advance they could find (and throw it away) to access the SVH. That combination would probably be no more expensive than the new Off Peak Single.

Let's be clear this change is a revenue raising exercise.

 

[Haywain]

Let's be clear this change is a revenue raising exercise.

I don’t disagree but I do think it’s a bit easier to understand.

 

[janb]

It has also removed a headache and possible point of conflict from ticket offices (who weren't allowed to retail the SVH).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has also removed a headache and possible point of conflict from ticket offices (who weren't allowed to retail the SVH).

And the fact that changing the date of an SVH incurred a rather extreme policy - needing to excess it to an SVS at nearly double the price.

I think overall we are best rid, though I'd rather they'd gone 50%.

 

[Hadders]

It has also removed a headache and possible point of conflict from ticket offices (who weren't allowed to retail the SVH).

And the fact that changing the date of an SVH incurred a rather extreme policy - needing to excess it to an SVS at nearly double the price.

I think overall we are best rid, though I'd rather they'd gone 50%.

Avanti could have retained the SVH and made it available at ticket offices. There’s nothing wrong with insisting it can only be purchased in combination with an Advance ticket in the other direction.

Instead Avanti chose to abolish it and increase the price by 40%. I don’t think there is anything reasonable about that at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti could have retained the SVH and made it available at ticket offices. There’s nothing wrong with insisting it can only be purchased in combination with an Advance ticket in the other direction.

There is. It's an unnecessary complication of the fares system.

Instead Avanti chose to abolish it and increase the price by 40%. I don’t think there is anything reasonable about that at all.

On balance I think that's better. If they'd gone 60% of return I'd be OK with that, most GWR ones are at that sort of level.

 

[miklcct]

I'm thinking the following workflow of a ticketing a website which will be suitable for my need.

1. It works as TrainSplit
2. But instead of allowing to choose one journeys, I can choose multiple journeys in both outbound and return
3. If only one journey is chosen, fixed time tickets can be sold. If multiple journeys are chosen, a set of tickets which are valid on all selected journeys are sold.

Any thoughts?

 

[SickyNicky]

I'm thinking the following workflow of a ticketing a website which will be suitable for my need.

1. It works as TrainSplit
2. But instead of allowing to choose one journeys, I can choose multiple journeys in both outbound and return
3. If only one journey is chosen, fixed time tickets can be sold. If multiple journeys are chosen, a set of tickets which are valid on all selected journeys are sold.

What I think you're asking for is the ability to choose an advance (fixed time) ticket outbound (which may or may not be split), but a flexible ticket (which also may or may not be split) for the return. You've identified the complexity in point 3 - any return journey splits would only be valid on a subset of journeys (due to ticket and split restrictions).

I don't think you'd be able to select multiple return journeys and display only tickets valid on all those services - that would be very complicated to both code and display, and would also be quite slow. As a compromise, how about something that could display a list of journeys that would be valid for the set of tickets offered?

 

[miklcct]

What I think you're asking for is the ability to choose an advance (fixed time) ticket outbound (which may or may not be split), but a flexible ticket (which also may or may not be split) for the return. You've identified the complexity in point 3 - any return journey splits would only be valid on a subset of journeys (due to ticket and split restrictions).

I don't think you'd be able to select multiple return journeys and display only tickets valid on all those services - that would be very complicated to both code and display, and would also be quite slow. As a compromise, how about something that could display a list of journeys that would be valid for the set of tickets offered?

So in order to reduce the complexity, we can change the flexible mode to search without fare, and only get a quote after the user selected the set of possible journeys. This restricts split finding to the common calling points of the selected journeys.

In fixed timed mode, the app behaves as usual, getting a fare along with the itinerary, and if the fare found is not advance, displays other journeys where the ticket is valid as well.

For semi flex tickets, I can use the flexible mode, choose only one outbound and multiple returns, afterwards the ticketing engine should be able to find a semi flex fare for me.

 

[SickyNicky]

So in order to reduce the complexity, we can change the flexible mode to search without fare, and only get a quote after the user selected the set of possible journeys. This restricts split finding to the common calling points of the selected journeys.

In fixed timed mode, the app behaves as usual, getting a fare along with the itinerary, and if the fare found is not advance, displays other journeys where the ticket is valid as well.

For semi flex tickets, I can use the flexible mode, choose only one outbound and multiple returns, afterwards the ticketing engine should be able to find a semi flex fare for me.

Most people want to see the prices at the same time as the results - having to select a journey to see a price seems to be a step backwards, really. We'll have a chat internally about it anyway. It may have to go into the development backlog, so don't expect it immediately.

 

[miklcct]

Most people want to see the prices at the same time as the results - having to select a journey to see a price seems to be a step backwards, really. We'll have a chat internally about it anyway. It may have to go into the development backlog, so don't expect it immediately.

So the problem in the current TrainSplit app / website is that, if I choose a flexible ticket and an itinerary, and it turns out the split point is at a station where maybe only one or two trains call there in a day, it won't give me any flexibility as one will expect. I will need to preview the tickets got, only find out that the split points are not good, and get back to the journey planner choosing a journey which I have no intention to take to force it to split at different points.

For example, for a trip on the coming Saturday from Bournemouth to London, I know which outbound train I need to take but I need flexibility in the return. However, all return journeys in combination of my selected outbound journey get me some undesirable split points (either Basingstoke or Winchester), becausing a flexible ticket split there will be cheaper, my outbound train calls at both stations, and all inbound trains call at at least one of these stations but none of the stations are called by all inbound trains. Therefore, in order to get the result I need, I need to choose another outbound journey which does not call at Basingstoke, and an inbound journey which does not call at Winchester, such that the splits generated will not involve these stations. My result is that I got a split at Southampton Airport only, which is called by all trains along the route.

My proposed workflow above allows the user to choose the level of flexibility needed. In such case, if I choose my desired outbound train and all inbound trains in the evening, the software can deduce that Basingstoke and Winchester are not possible split points because they are not called by all selected trains.

 

[SickyNicky]

Hmm. It sounds to me almost like it wants a "don't include the following stations in split tickets" feature. Maybe a button by where the fares are displayed that would allow the customer to disable splitting at a particular station and then recalculate the best splits?

I'm not trying to avoid your "multi-itinerary" selection idea, it's just that it's inordinately complex in the real world to actually provide, at least not without rewriting mounds of code.

But although either way would work for you, I still think it might be complex for the average user to understand. Simplicity is everything when trying to guide people around the minefield that is GB rail ticketing.

 

[paul1609]

So the problem in the current TrainSplit app / website is that, if I choose a flexible ticket and an itinerary, and it turns out the split point is at a station where maybe only one or two trains call there in a day, it won't give me any flexibility as one will expect. I will need to preview the tickets got, only find out that the split points are not good, and get back to the journey planner choosing a journey which I have no intention to take to force it to split at different points.

For example, for a trip on the coming Saturday from Bournemouth to London, I know which outbound train I need to take but I need flexibility in the return. However, all return journeys in combination of my selected outbound journey get me some undesirable split points (either Basingstoke or Winchester), becausing a flexible ticket split there will be cheaper, my outbound train calls at both stations, and all inbound trains call at at least one of these stations but none of the stations are called by all inbound trains. Therefore, in order to get the result I need, I need to choose another outbound journey which does not call at Basingstoke, and an inbound journey which does not call at Winchester, such that the splits generated will not involve these stations. My result is that I got a split at Southampton Airport only, which is called by all trains along the route.

My proposed workflow above allows the user to choose the level of flexibility needed. In such case, if I choose my desired outbound train and all inbound trains in the evening, the software can deduce that Basingstoke and Winchester are not possible split points because they are not called by all selected trains.

Your Bournemouth to London trip is a relatively simple route. Imagine an enquiry from my local station Rye Sussex to Birmingham. We have no direct services to London but three different fare routes serving 7 different London Terminals with one change, utilising 6 different major routes, we have 2 different operators offering advance tickets to London. Beyond London there are three different operators offering direct services to Birmingham all with their own fares.

 

[SickyNicky]

Your Bournemouth to London trip is a relatively simple route. Imagine an enquiry from my local station Rye Sussex to Birmingham. We have no direct services to London but three different fare routes serving 7 different London Terminals with one change, utilising 6 different major routes, we have 2 different operators offering advance tickets to London. Beyond London there are three different operators offering direct services to Birmingham all with their own fares.

Yes indeed. That's the nub of the problem. In some (possibly many) cases it might not even be possible to ticket different itineraries with the same through ticket, let alone with split tickets. Hence why it's much simpler to display itineraries that would be valid with a set of tickets, rather than try to find tickets that would be valid with a set of itineraries.

 

[181]

It sounds to me almost like it wants a "don't include the following stations in split tickets" feature

I've sometimes thought that would be useful.