Issues North of Newcastle - Plessey Viaduct - 09/10 (onwards)

[trebor79]

Yes, spot on - a dear colleague from Newcastle who now sadly has passed always told me many times you could instantly recognise Southerners as they always wore coats whereas the 'locals' are lightly clothed including the ladies on a freezing cold night out! Its not freezing .. it's just 'fresh'
Yes I well believe the lads are working in t-shirts!

My mum and I still recall the time we were driving to Sunderland in the middle of winter about 30 years ago. Came off the A19 at the junction near the Nissan factory, and there was the archetypal Geordie with a beer belly. He was wearing a white vest, a pair of shorts and trainers. It was January and the sleet was horizontal at the time .

 

[D6130]

Came off the A19 at the junction near the Nissan factory, and there was the archetypal Geordie with a beer belly. He was wearing a white vest, a pair of shorts and trainers.

Was it Paul Gascoigne by any chance?

 

[najaB]

Interesting claim, "the structural integrity of the viaduct remained unaffected by the damage". Are they saying the repairs they have carried out are purely cosmetic?

Depends on what they mean by 'structural integrity'. I presume that they are saying that the viaduct wasn't at any danger of a complete collapse, even though it wasn't possible to run trains over both lines.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I presume that they are saying that the viaduct wasn't at any danger of a complete collapse, even though it wasn't possible to run trains over both lines.

I also presume that is the message which is intended. Unfortunately "structural integrity" is a term used in engineering and has a different meaning. It's the ability of a structure to support its design loadings. Even though trains could continue to run in both directions on the down line safely, the inability of the viaduct to carry trains travelling on the up line demonstrates that its structural integrity was affected by the partial collapse of the spandrel wall.

I hope the press release is simply a case of non-engineers using a specific technical term inappropriately, rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead.

 

[800001]

I also presume that is the message which is intended. Unfortunately "structural integrity" is a term used in engineering and has a different meaning. It's the ability of a structure to support its design loadings. Even though trains could continue to run in both directions on the down line safely, the inability of the viaduct to carry trains travelling on the up line demonstrates that its structural integrity was affected by the partial collapse of the spandrel wall.

I hope the press release is simply a case of non-engineers using a specific technical term inappropriately, rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead.

Wasn’t the only reason trains couldn’t use the Up line was that there was no supporting wall to hold the ballast?
As such the actually structural integrity of the viaduct was sound?

 

[BRX]

Well, a chocolate teapot has perfect structural integrity as long as you excuse it from containing certain things.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Wasn’t the only reason trains couldn’t use the Up line was that there was no supporting wall to hold the ballast?

No. In a masonry arch bridge or viaduct the (spandrel) wall is a load bearing part of the structure. It doesn't simply retain the ballast in place, but resists the load from backfill, ballast and the track above and ultimately the trains running on it, so that it's transmitted through the arches and piers to the ground. After it had partially collapsed it could no longer do that.

 

[edwin_m]

No. In a masonry arch bridge or viaduct the (spandrel) wall is a load bearing part of the structure. It doesn't simply retain the ballast in place, but resists the load from backfill, ballast and the track above and ultimately the trains running on it, so that it's transmitted through the arches and piers to the ground. After it had partially collapsed it could no longer do that.

That's effectively a re-statement of what @800001 said. Clearly in this case what was meant by structural integrity was the ability of the viaduct to remain standing without further collapse.

 

[DarloRich]

There has obviously been a great deal of hard work in quite challenging weather and limited time to get this repair completed. I cant believe for one moment trains would be running if the structural integrity, in the commonly accepted definition of the phrase, had been compromised.

A bit of rain doesn‘t put off the Geordie workforce. No doubt they were working in t-shirts. Coats are for Southerners.

T shirts? It wasn't snowing

Yes, spot on - a dear colleague from Newcastle who now sadly has passed always told me many times you could instantly recognise Southerners as they always wore coats whereas the 'locals' are lightly clothed including the ladies on a freezing cold night out! Its not freezing .. it's just 'fresh'
Yes I well believe the lads are working in t-shirts!

I only wear a coat in the south during the winter to prevent the locals being unsettled.

My mum and I still recall the time we were driving to Sunderland in the middle of winter about 30 years ago. Came off the A19 at the junction near the Nissan factory, and there was the archetypal Geordie with a beer belly. He was wearing a white vest, a pair of shorts and trainers. It was January and the sleet was horizontal at the time

Are you trying to cause an international incident? Geordies don't come from Sunderland. I have seen people layed out in pubs for less than that!

 

[duffield]

There has obviously been a great deal of hard work in quite challenging weather and limited time to get this repair completed. I cant believe for one moment trains would be running if the structural integrity, in the commonly accepted definition of the phrase, had been compromised.

T shirts? It wasn't snowing

I only wear a coat in the south during the winter to prevent the locals being unsettled.

Are you trying to cause an international incident? Geordies don't come from Sunderland. I have seen people layed out in pubs for less than that!

Exactly, since while the exact geographical boundary of "Geordie Land" is controversial in the North-East itself, unless you're an ignorant softie Southerner it certainly doesn't include Sunderland, which is populated by "Mackems".

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Clearly in this case what was meant by structural integrity was the ability of the viaduct to remain standing without further collapse.

Whatever the person writing the press release meant to say, they chose to use to use an engineering term which is not open to that kind of interpretation.

I don't think there's any dispute that the viaduct was able to remain standing and capable of carrying trains on the down line which remained in situ. But the term "structural integrity" relates to a structure's ability to support all its design loading, not just part of it. In its damaged state, with part of the spandrel wall having collapsed, the viaduct was not capable of carrying the loading of the up line, so its structural integrity was affected.

 

[AndrewE]

Good news from https://railuk.com/rail-news/normal...ail-completes-repair-work-to-plessey-viaduct/:

Normal service resumes as Network Rail completes repair work to Plessey Viaduct
​

Trains services between Newcastle and Scotland have returned to normal after Network Rail completed its repair work to Plessey Viaduct near Morpeth.

For the last month, engineers have been working to repair damage to the parapet wall on the viaduct which was discovered during planned engineering work to renew the track in October.

Network Rail teams have installed pre-cast concrete units to the structure and have carried out steel underpinning which has strengthened the parapet on the more than 170-year-old structure.

 

[trebor79]

I only wear a coat in the south during the winter to prevent the locals being unsettled. Are you trying to cause an international incident? Geordies don't come from Sunderland. I have seen people layed out in pubs for less than that!

Quite right. He was, of course, more likely to have been Makem scum.

Whatever the person writing the press release meant to say, they chose to use to use an engineering term which is not open to that kind of interpretation.

I don't think there's any dispute that the viaduct was able to remain standing and capable of carrying trains on the down line which remained in situ. But the term "structural integrity" relates to a structure's ability to support all its design loading, not just part of it. In its damaged state, with part of the spandrel wall having collapsed, the viaduct was not capable of carrying the loading of the up line, so its structural integrity was affected.

Yeah but they were communicating with lay people, giving to give them confidence that the viaduct wasn't at risk of collapse whilst their train ran over it. Perfectly acceptable use of the term in these circumstances.

 

[dan4291]

Network Rail raised the emergency speed restriction over the viaduct (Up southbound line) from 50mph to 80mph yesterday so they must be confident in the safety of their work. I drove over it last night and I'm still here!

 

[edwin_m]

Yeah but they were communicating with lay people, giving to give them confidence that the viaduct wasn't at risk of collapse whilst their train ran over it. Perfectly acceptable use of the term in these circumstances.

Probably better for them to have said what you said, rather than use a term like "structural integrity", which make provoke disagreement that lay people may see as a suggestion that it is at risk of collapse.

 

[snowball]

I would have thought that for many old rail and road bridges, the question of whether they can carry the load they were designed for is of secondary interest, as the load (or at least the live load) they actually have to carry today is much greater.

 

[LucaGo]

Network Rail raised the emergency speed restriction over the viaduct (Up southbound line) from 50mph to 80mph yesterday so they must be confident in the safety of their work. I drove over it last night and I'm still here!

Hello everyone, very interesting reflections. They seem to be confident in the safety of their work, and I'm sure that's a relief to the many people who use the viaduct regularly.

 

[trebor79]

Probably better for them to have said what you said, rather than use a term like "structural integrity", which make provoke disagreement that lay people may see as a suggestion that it is at risk of collapse.

Hah, I bet their PR people would have had a sharp intake of breath if someone drafted a presser to reassure people with the word "collapse" in it. "Structural integrity not affected" is perfectly fine to convey the message that it's safe to use. Nobody cares about a few pedants having issue with it.

 

[josh-j]

I do wonder if the line on the side that "failed non-structurally" was safe to use in the period immediately before the engineering works and failure. If the engineering works made it fall into the valley could that have happened in normal use?

 

[najaB]

If the engineering works made it fall into the valley could that have happened in normal use?

This was discussed earlier in the thread. The consensus appeared to be the cause of the failure was the change in loads caused during the engineering work. Much like how an egg is very strong when you compress it top to bottom but even a fraction of the load applied to the sides will smash it.

 

[DelW]

Unlikely to be made public if so, but it's also possible that the parapet took a nudge from a backhoe bucket, or something similar. Heavy plant working close alongside a structure always poses a degree of risk.

 

[AndrewE]

I have noticed how much [depth of] ballast there is below the sleeper level, i.e. between the top of the arches and the bottom of the sleepers... and I also remember that KGV knocked its chimney off on the Welsh border as the track had been reballasted and tamped so many times that a bridge was out-of-gauge!

So could we be seeing the effects of repeated reballasting and tamping here too? What was once a shallow bed of stone and a wall to stop p-way staff falling over the sides is now a deep bed of stone - and fines further down. The big (wider) trapezium of stone below the sleepers must be pushing outwards on the side walls of the viaduct, when the base (considering the depth and slope) of the original stone might have just stopped at the side walls?

 

[jonf14]

On a cross country train now from Edinburgh to York and the driver has said we can't cross the viaduct until network rail had reinspected it. Not sure what is going on with it or just another check?

 

[800001]

On a cross country train now from Edinburgh to York and the driver has said we can't cross the viaduct until network rail had reinspected it. Not sure what is going on with it or just another check?

Due to an issue with Plessey Viaduct Up and Down lines between Newcastle and Morpeth trains are currently suspended.
Suspension of services departing York heading north.

 

[londonmidland]

Movement reported over the viaduct again. All lines blocked.

 

[800001]

Trains should be on move immently, movement is with lin tolerances.

Normal working granted at 2012

Edit-now awaiting confirmation from someone that safe for movement

Line now estimated opening 2100

 

[Trainguy34]

Nothing yet judging by a look at traksy, trains backed up to Benton from Newcastle (2 trains) and to Pegswood towards Edinburgh (4 trains)

 

[800Travel]

Nothing yet judging by a look at traksy, trains backed up to Benton from Newcastle (2 trains) and to Pegswood towards Edinburgh (4 trains)

A 5th now just past widdrington :/ Nothing moved in the 15 mins since they said lines are open

 

[800001]

A 5th now just past widdrington :/ Nothing moved in the 15 mins since they said lines are open

No, as the line isn’t open.

MMIC is waiting for a COSS (who ever they both are) to inspect the viaduct

 

[Anvil1984]

No, as the line isn’t open.

MMIC is waiting for a COSS (who ever they both are) to inspect the viaduct

Maintenance Manager In Charge
Controller Of Site Safety