Ivanhoe line?

[Nerdylady]

Hello all,
Complete wet-behind-the-ears newbie to this site so please forgive me for any transgressions such as posting Q in wrong section etc!
I work in Overseal, postcode DE12, and there is a track running past the window of my office. I believe it is called the Ivanhoe line but I am not 100% sure. What I *do* know for sure is that it is not a passenger route, although it may have been back in the days of yore/pre-Beeching. I see the following traffic: freight containers (contents unknown but possibly coal etc?) TFL underground coaches, diesel units in old BR turquoise/yellow livery (lovely)! plus maintenance traffic such as stoneblowers and what have you.
I just wondered if anyone has any more info about this line, that is, the correct name? Full usage? Where is traffic coming from/going to (apart from the obvious TFL coaches). Every time I hear a rumble on the line I run to the window like a big kid to see what's coming, although it is quite a deep cutting, and with the trees in full leaf at present I barely get more than a fleeting glimpse.

Any info appreciated, thanks all!

 

[DarloRich]

Seek and ye shall receive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanhoe_Line

 

[Hairy Bear]

Although part of the proposed Ivanhoe line its also refered to as the coalville branch running between burton and Knighton junction just south of Leicester.
Traffic as you have noticed is sporadic but a heads up can be found here using Drakelow Junction as a reference point which is nearest to you.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...16/08/09/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The failure to re-open and exploit Burton-Leicester must be one of the most spectacular cases of rail vandalism-by-inaction in the entire UK.

I presume all Leicestershire's county council members have cars on expenses.

I find it incongruous that this discussion board has monstrously long threads on nutcase suggestions like Aberystwyth to Carmarthen re-opening, which wouldn't be viable even if the trackbed and infrastructure were in sparkling, pristine condition, meanwhile Burton to Leicester gets just the odd post and intermittent mention. It should have been a candidate for reopening in the 1980s, but has been allowed allowed to slowly rot away, with key sections of trackbed sold off for a quick profit.

If the line were in Scotland, it would have been re-opened by 1990, and today be a 90-mph, double-tracked, electrified route with 4TPH.

 

[DarloRich]

The failure to re-open and exploit Burton-Leicester must be one of the most spectacular cases of rail vandalism-by-inaction in the entire UK.

I presume all Leicestershire's county council members have cars on expenses.

I find it incongruous that this discussion board has monstrously long threads on nutcase suggestions like Aberystwyth to Carmarthen re-opening, which wouldn't be viable even if the trackbed and infrastructure were in sparkling, pristine condition, meanwhile Burton to Leicester gets just the odd post and intermittent mention. It should have been a candidate for reopening in the 1980s, but has been allowed allowed to slowly rot away, with key sections of trackbed sold off for a quick profit.

If the line were in Scotland, it would have been re-opened by 1990, and today be a 90-mph, double-tracked, electrified route with 4TPH.

Is the missing north facing curve south of Leicester the main obstacle?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Is the missing north facing curve south of Leicester the main obstacle?

I believe it is cited as such. Even then, I wonder if the reversal could be put to good use, but using it as an intermediate station. It's near the King Power stadium - but not near enough, I suspect.

I'd prefer to call it excuse. I suspect a more genuine reason is lack of anyone in a position of influence in Leicester city/county administrations with a driving urge to get it done.

I confess I am no expert on the issue. But compared to, say, the Robin Hood line, and certainly the Tweedbank re-opening, with its phenomenal capital outlay, I'd have thought it should be a no-brainer.

Disgusted of Kirby Muxloe
(Didn't that appear in the Slow Train?)

 

[The Planner]

I thought it suffered from subsidence, hence the low speeds across most of it?

 

[Spankthemonkey]

The failure to re-open and exploit Burton-Leicester must be one of the most spectacular cases of rail vandalism-by-inaction in the entire UK.

I presume all Leicestershire's county council members have cars on expenses.

I find it incongruous that this discussion board has monstrously long threads on nutcase suggestions like Aberystwyth to Carmarthen re-opening, which wouldn't be viable even if the trackbed and infrastructure were in sparkling, pristine condition, meanwhile Burton to Leicester gets just the odd post and intermittent mention. It should have been a candidate for reopening in the 1980s, but has been allowed allowed to slowly rot away, with key sections of trackbed sold off for a quick profit.

If the line were in Scotland, it would have been re-opened by 1990, and today be a 90-mph, double-tracked, electrified route with 4TPH.

Quite right. Leicestershire is not one of these "development areas" like Scotland or Wales, for a successful reopening of a freight branch as passengers look at the Ebbw Vale service now. If it was in the South East it would be reopen now as light rail. Leicestershire council need a rethink on this.

 

[PHILIPE]

Quite right. Leicestershire is not one of these "development areas" like Scotland or Wales, for a successful reopening of a freight branch as passengers look at the Ebbw Vale service now. If it was in the South East it would be reopen now as light rail. Leicestershire council need a rethink on this.

Some Councils are Prorail, others antirail or couldn't care less about it.

 

[43074]

Some Councils are Prorail, others antirail or couldn't care less about it.

... and Leicestershire County Council are one of those councils which couldn't care less about it. I suspect it would care more about it if there was a more extensive rail network - the only stations in Leicestershire [inc the City of Leicester] are Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester, Syston, Sileby, Barrow, Loughborough, Melton Mowbray and Bottesford: the intercity/regional nature of the lines on which they are located makes service development difficult, and Wigston to Syston is a major bottleneck which constrains the number of trains that can run to the city - naturally the main market for any reopenings or service enhancements. The rural nature of ''the Shire'' naturally favours car use, hence that is where the political will lies.

I fully support the reopening, it would be great for North West Leicestershire and the East Midlands as a whole but it needs Council support as well, which isn't forthcoming... report after report have found it's operation would not be viable, although new lines consistently perform above expectations so you have to draw your own conclusions.

 

[Flying Phil]

... and Leicestershire County Council are one of those councils which couldn't care less about it. I suspect it would care more about it if there was a more extensive rail network - the only stations in Leicestershire [inc the City of Leicester] are Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester, Syston, Sileby, Barrow, Loughborough, Melton Mowbray and Bottesford: the intercity/regional nature of the lines on which they are located makes service development difficult, and Wigston to Syston is a major bottleneck which constrains the number of trains that can run to the city - naturally the main market for any reopenings or service enhancements. The rural nature of ''the Shire'' naturally favours car use, hence that is where the political will lies.

I fully support the reopening, it would be great for North West Leicestershire and the East Midlands as a whole but it needs Council support as well, which isn't forthcoming... report after report have found it's operation would not be viable, although new lines consistently perform above expectations so you have to draw your own conclusions.

Re the LCC and rail support - It is not quite true that they are not Pro rail, as they are supporting the GCR

"Leicestershire County Council has announced an investment of £250,000 in one million shares in GCR plc. This gives a major boost to the Reunification project part of which is to Bridge the Gap across the Midland Main Line and to the new museum to be built at Leicester North."

 

[Robertj21a]

... and Leicestershire County Council are one of those councils which couldn't care less about it. I suspect it would care more about it if there was a more extensive rail network - the only stations in Leicestershire [inc the City of Leicester] are Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester, Syston, Sileby, Barrow, Loughborough, Melton Mowbray and Bottesford: the intercity/regional nature of the lines on which they are located makes service development difficult, and Wigston to Syston is a major bottleneck which constrains the number of trains that can run to the city - naturally the main market for any reopenings or service enhancements. The rural nature of ''the Shire'' naturally favours car use, hence that is where the political will lies.

I fully support the reopening, it would be great for North West Leicestershire and the East Midlands as a whole but it needs Council support as well, which isn't forthcoming... report after report have found it's operation would not be viable, although new lines consistently perform above expectations so you have to draw your own conclusions.

As you say, there have been a number of reports over the years but all come up with the financials as the problem. Perhaps if Staffordshire was to push for it from their (Burton on Trent) end ?
Even so, I'm struggling to think it would justify (at most) anything other than a 156 every hour - even then it doesn't look to be a money spinner.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Hello all,
Complete wet-behind-the-ears newbie to this site so please forgive me for any transgressions such as posting Q in wrong section etc!
I work in Overseal, postcode DE12, and there is a track running past the window of my office. I believe it is called the Ivanhoe line but I am not 100% sure. ...

In addition to DarloRich's info, you may like to see this link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester_to_Burton_upon_Trent_Line

I am 98.375% sure it was not called "The Ivanhoe" line in ye olden days. This fad with 'naming' lines to improve their 'branding' came about sometime in the 80s or 90s.

I did go to Leicester in the early 60s, but don't remember what the passenger services were like, or what exactly worked them. The line seems to have closed to passenger on Sept 7, 1964.
I suspect it would have been a sort of two-hourly stopping service - so 6 or 7 trains a day maximum, but perhaps someone on here will know.

Goods traffic was a different matter, and traffic from the collieries appears to have been heavy. I suspect the operating staff were probably quite happy to dump the passenger services and concentrate on the goods.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Re the LCC and rail support - It is not quite true that they are not Pro rail, as they are supporting the GCR

"Leicestershire County Council has announced an investment of £250,000 in one million shares in GCR plc. This gives a major boost to the Reunification project part of which is to Bridge the Gap across the Midland Main Line and to the new museum to be built at Leicester North."

But the GCR, worthy though it is, is not rail as we know it, is it? It's a tourist attraction, not yer regular transport link. (Or are there plans for some sort of such service? I doubt it, given the lack of routes into the two cities at either end of the line.)

Nonetheless, presumably someone at the council DID support the re-opening of Syston/Sileby/Barrow? Perhaps he/she died or lost an election.

 

[43074]

Re the LCC and rail support - It is not quite true that they are not Pro rail, as they are supporting the GCR

"Leicestershire County Council has announced an investment of £250,000 in one million shares in GCR plc. This gives a major boost to the Reunification project part of which is to Bridge the Gap across the Midland Main Line and to the new museum to be built at Leicester North."

Yes that's true, but equally the GCR project is more a tourism & heritage project, as opposed to, say, a rail reopening that might get people out of their cars etc

 

[70014IronDuke]

As you say, there have been a number of reports over the years but all come up with the financials as the problem. Perhaps if Staffordshire was to push for it from their (Burton on Trent) end ?
Even so, I'm struggling to think it would justify (at most) anything other than a 156 every hour - even then it doesn't look to be a money spinner.

1TPH Burton - Leicester, perhaps, but maybe the Coalville-Leicester section should be 2 TPH - it's more heavily populated from memory, and I assume a fair proportion of folk work in Leicester. (No paths for that, Knighton-Leicester, perhaps?)

and, presumably, some would change trains and get on a London-bound EMT 220/HST?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought it suffered from subsidence, hence the low speeds across most of it?

Quite likely at some points, given the mining history I should think. But that could be dealt with, to some extent, if the will was there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... and Leicestershire County Council are one of those councils which couldn't care less about it. I suspect it would care more about it if there was a more extensive rail network - the only stations in Leicestershire [inc the City of Leicester] are Hinckley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester, Syston, Sileby, Barrow, Loughborough, Melton Mowbray and Bottesford: ....

I hadn't realised Bottesford is in Leicestershire. And EMP must be in Notts, then?
Bizarre. Little wonder Bottesford gets such a scant service, nobody in Leicester County Council is going to bother with writing a letter to EMT campaigning for improvements. In fact, I suspect most of the councillors don't know it's in Leicester either

 

[yorksrob]

I believe it is cited as such. Even then, I wonder if the reversal could be put to good use, but using it as an intermediate station. It's near the King Power stadium - but not near enough, I suspect.

I'd prefer to call it excuse. I suspect a more genuine reason is lack of anyone in a position of influence in Leicester city/county administrations with a driving urge to get it done.

I confess I am no expert on the issue. But compared to, say, the Robin Hood line, and certainly the Tweedbank re-opening, with its phenomenal capital outlay, I'd have thought it should be a no-brainer.

Disgusted of Kirby Muxloe
(Didn't that appear in the Slow Train?)

Yes indeed. This one certainly looks as though it should be a priority. Unfortunately England's abysmal record on re-openings seems to preclude this.

 

[The Planner]

As far as Coalville I could see it as I expect the flow to employment is there to Leicester but you will still need the north curve at Knighton. Not sure about the whole way. Burton is still going to be Derby and Brum still.

 

[43074]

1TPH Burton - Leicester, perhaps, but maybe the Coalville-Leicester section should be 2 TPH - it's more heavily populated from memory, and I assume a fair proportion of folk work in Leicester. (No paths for that, Knighton-Leicester, perhaps?)

Coalville has a population of 33,000 and is by far the largest place until you get to Leicester - Kirby Muxloe has a population of 5,000 but you might justify a better peak service (e.g. 1 extra arrival c. 08:30 and departure c. 1730) at least by opening stations at Leicester Forest East and possibly Bede Island. There's no way you could justify 2tph from Coalville off peak though.

I hadn't realised Bottesford is in Leicestershire. And EMP must be in Notts, then?
Bizarre. Little wonder Bottesford gets such a scant service, nobody in Leicester County Council is going to bother with writing a letter to EMT campaigning for improvements. In fact, I suspect most of the councillors don't know it's in Leicester either

Indeed, I was surprised when I found the boundary extended that far North East! On the same line, Bottesford is a larger place than Bingham but gets a significantly worse service, although I suspect that's the DfT getting involved there rather than Leicestershire County Council's rail policy (or lack thereof).

Parkway is pretty much on the boundary - nearby Kegworth and the Airport are in Leicestershire, but the station is Nottinghamshire.

As far as Coalville I could see it as I expect the flow to employment is there to Leicester but you will still need the north curve at Knighton. Not sure about the whole way. Burton is still going to be Derby and Brum still.

Further west the focus is still largely on Leicester, Burton in its own right isn't a particularly large employment centre, I suspect anyone needing Derby/Birmingham from the Ashby area will continue to drive on the A42.

 

[bluenoxid]

Very blue sky. With HS2 Eastern branch slicing through the area would there be any benefit for a branch running alongside HS2 towards the East Mids or West Mids and potentially Burton?

 

[Spankthemonkey]

1TPH Burton - Leicester, perhaps, but maybe the Coalville-Leicester section should be 2 TPH - it's more heavily populated from memory, and I assume a fair proportion of folk work in Leicester. (No paths for that, Knighton-Leicester, perhaps?)



aye, I reckon a vast chunk of Ashby commuters are heading down the 42 to Brum, but either way Coalville and ashby must be two of the larger UK population areas without a station.

What's EMT's position on it? Where there is strong will from the local TOC things tend to happen quicker, Chiltern being a driver of some of the major infrastructure work down that way as part of their evergreen programme.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The Robin Hood line has been mentioned here but how successful has it been? Honest question here by the way. I thought I'd read that north of Mansfield it doesn't do much in the way of business and the population of Mansfield is three times the size of Coalville.

 

[tbtc]

The Robin Hood line has been mentioned here but how successful has it been? Honest question here by the way. I thought I'd read that north of Mansfield it doesn't do much in the way of business and the population of Mansfield is three times the size of Coalville.

I was going to post something similar (before noticing your comment on the second page of the thread).

I'm not sure that the Robin Hood line has been a tremendous success, I'm not sure that East Midlands Parkway has been a tremendous success, I'm not sure that reopening to Corby has been a tremendous success.

So whilst I appreciate the "East Midlands gets ignored" argument (or the "if this were in Scotland/ Wales..." argument), I'm struggling to think of anything local that has been significantly better than anticipated?

I'm not knocking investment in the region, there are the kind of population densities that ought to justify rail investment, I'm just wary of the "every re-opening has been better than expected" arguments that we tend to see!

The failure to re-open and exploit Burton-Leicester must be one of the most spectacular cases of rail vandalism-by-inaction in the entire UK.

I presume all Leicestershire's county council members have cars on expenses

There's always a job on a tabloid newspaper going, if you want to use your talents...

TI find it incongruous that this discussion board has monstrously long threads on nutcase suggestions like Aberystwyth to Carmarthen re-opening, which wouldn't be viable even if the trackbed and infrastructure were in sparkling, pristine condition

...however I agree on this point.

Some enthusiasts seem obsessed with (re)opening lines through relatively empty parts of the UK (Okehampton to Tavistock, Carmarthen to Aberystywth, Stranraer to Dumfries) but less bothered about "less scenic" places where more people actually live.

Frustrating.

T the line were in Scotland, it would have been re-opened by 1990, and today be a 90-mph, double-tracked, electrified route with 4TPH.

Where is the real demand on the route though?

Coalville to Leicester, certainly - four buses per hour at the moment?

Burton to Leicester, less so. I can't see the route getting more than an hourly train (maybe half hourly to Coalville?).

If you want to give Leicester four EMUs an hour to somewhere then I'd suggest Birmingham (an Inter-City route that only gets a couple of Turbostars per hour that seems to be significantly less than it deserves IMHO). But beefing up an existing route between cities is fairly boring compared to suggesting quaint branchlines in Devon/ Cumbria etc...

Quite right. Leicestershire is not one of these "development areas" like Scotland or Wales, for a successful reopening of a freight branch as passengers look at the Ebbw Vale service now

You know that Ebbw Vale only looks "successful" because the projections were based on direct services to Newport (and were carried out before the steel works closed)?

Once the line opened with direct services to Cardiff (and with the need for people to commute outside the town in search of employment once the works closed), it's hardly surprising that the numbers looked different.

Ebbw Vale was an outlier, mainly because the projections were based on Newport services - I certainly wouldn't use it as a benchmark for what another line should aspire to.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I was going to post something similar (before noticing your comment on the second page of the thread).

I'm not sure that the Robin Hood line has been a tremendous success, I'm not sure that East Midlands Parkway has been a tremendous success, I'm not sure that reopening to Corby has been a tremendous success.

So whilst I appreciate the "East Midlands gets ignored" argument (or the "if this were in Scotland/ Wales..." argument), I'm struggling to think of anything local that has been significantly better than anticipated?

I'm not knocking investment in the region, there are the kind of population densities that ought to justify rail investment, I'm just wary of the "every re-opening has been better than expected" arguments that we tend to see!

Well this is the point.

Incidentally there are lots of bright ideas with the best intentions but when we've got cost overruns on the major projects do we really have the money to get Coalville reconnected to the network?

 

[6Gman]

The failure to re-open and exploit Burton-Leicester must be one of the most spectacular cases of rail vandalism-by-inaction in the entire UK.

I presume all Leicestershire's county council members have cars on expenses.

I think your presumption is almost certainly in error.

It's very, very unlikely that any county councillors have cars on expenses.

Why not ask LCC since it would be a matter of public record?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure that the Robin Hood line has been a tremendous success, I'm not sure that East Midlands Parkway has been a tremendous

They're an important enough part of the transport that it seems unlikely that they will be closed.

but less bothered about "less scenic" places where more people actually live.

Frustrating.

Does this mean that we've finally found a reopening that you might support !

 

[RichmondCommu]

They're an important enough part of the transport that it seems unlikely that they will be closed.

However that doesn't mean to say that they have been anything like a complete success.

 

[yorksrob]

However that doesn't mean to say that they have been anything like a complete success.

Depends how you define success. It's hard to imagine Mansfield without a rail link today. If you're going by farebox revenue, maybe not, but few routes are in that case.

 

[Harbornite]

I
If you want to give Leicester four EMUs an hour to somewhere then I'd suggest Birmingham (an Inter-City route that only gets a couple of Turbostars per hour that seems to be significantly less than it deserves IMHO). But beefing up an existing route between cities is fairly boring compared to suggesting quaint branchlines in Devon/ Cumbria etc...
.

I'd like to see this. Electrifying Leicester- Nuneaton- Birmingham should be done because it will create a diversionary route for the wcml that can be used by electrics, it can tie in with Derby- Bristol electrificaton, and there's potential for electric freights from Hams Hall.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The last time I did the Robin Hod line was a Saturday in September heading north, and after Mansfield there may have been three people besides myself in my coach, and to the best of my knowledge no-one boarded at any of the four intermediate stops. I appreciate that for many the main draw is south to Mansfield and Nottingham; and Whitwell and Langwith are hardly massive settlements, but looking at the usage figures for the intermediate stations and my own experiences on that day and whenever I've been over that way in the past, it doesn't strike me as the best example of a reopening success in this country. I think a pretty good indicator of that fact is when Nottinghamshire County Council withdrew their funding for Sunday services between Mansfield and Worksop a few years ago after about a year of operation practically no objections appeared to be raised, and that still seems to be the case!

Edit - I should add to clarify: I mean between Mansfield and Worksop doesn't appear to be a success: the southern portion of the route always strikes me as doing alright for itself.

 

[ashworth]

The Robin Hood line has been mentioned here but how successful has it been? Honest question here by the way. I thought I'd read that north of Mansfield it doesn't do much in the way of business and the population of Mansfield is three times the size of Coalville.

I think the Robin Hood Line has been a success south of Mansfield but whenever I have travelled north of Mansfield it has never been very busy.

The priority of the whole service seems to be to transport people to and from Nottingham and travel in that direction and indeed onward connections to London and the south is easy. However, most of the communities north of Mansfield towards Worksop look more to Sheffield for employment, shopping and leisure than they do to Nottingham. However, journey times to Sheffield, which usually involves nearly a 45 minute wait for a connection at Worksop does not encourage people to move from their cars or indeed buses for travel to Sheffield. It also does not make journeys from Mansfield to other destinations in the north very easy when it is often quicker to first travel south via Nottingham than endure the wait at Worksop.

I'm not saying that good connections at Worksop or even through trains to Sheffield would see the northern part of the line as busy as south of Mansfield, but I think it would lead to a significant increase in passengers. A journey from Mansfield to Sheffield could be done in well under one hour but because of the poor connection situation and so many stops it is often close to a 2 hour journey. It only takes about 40 minutes by road using the M1.