Just an old tree- or what the hell is happening in society?

[najaB]

You've ignored the toxicity problem.
It wouldn't surprise me if the ultimate motive behind the felling was livestock protection.

A tree that size is unlikely to be grazed by livestock.

 

[randyrippley]

A tree that size is unlikely to be grazed by livestock.

Seeds
Thousands of them
Doesn't take many to kill a horse

 

[najaB]

Seeds
Thousands of them
Doesn't take many to kill a horse

Even if one accepts that as a motive, the simple response is that the tree would have predated the farmer by at least a couple of centuries.

 

[randyrippley]

Even if one accepts that as a motive, the simple response is that the tree would have predated the farmer by at least a couple of centuries.

Still a valid motive though if a prize animal, or multiple animals have just been lost

Here's an overview of sycamore poisoning in horses

Sycamore poisoning in horses | Atypical Myopathy | Blue Cross

Atypical myopathy or “sycamore poisoning” can be fatal for horses so it is important that you know the symptoms and how to prevent it. Read our advice on sycamore poisoning

www.bluecross.org.uk

(and yes, I thought I knew most toxic plants in the UK, this one surprised me)
Apparently just 50 seeds can be enough to kill a horse

 

[najaB]

Still a valid motive though if a prize animal, or multiple animals have just been lost

Valid as in "logically consistent" or valid as in "an acceptable justification"? I can understand the former, but find the latter repugnant.

If we take as given that trees are significantly less mobile than farm animals, the correct course of action seems obvious...

 

[randyrippley]

Valid as in "logically consistent" or valid as in "an acceptable justification"? I can understand the former, but find the latter repugnant.

If you're a farmer with ragwort on your land you dig it out before it gets eaten and kills.
If you're a farmer with yew trees on your land you fence them off. Same with laurel. Or laburnum. Or you fell them
If you've got wild parsnip, or water hemlock, you get the herbicide out.
Conceptually this is no different. Toxic non-native plant. Eradicate.

 

[najaB]

If you're a farmer with ragwort on your land you dig it out before it gets eaten and kills.
If you're a farmer with yew trees on your land you fence them off. Same with laurel. Or laburnum. Or you fell them
If you've got wild parsnip, or water hemlock, you get the herbicide out.
Conceptually this is no different.

The land is owned by the National Trust.

 

[randyrippley]

The land is owned by the National Trust.

So what?
presumably there are tenant farmer(s)? Or locals with commons rights?
And while the NT may own the strip containing the wall, do they own the adjacent land which appears to be unprotected by fencing?
The NT has a toxic tree on their land. What did they do to stop livestock eating it's toxic seeds?

 

[najaB]

So what?

So whoever cut it down - even if a farmer - committed criminal damage on someone else's property.

And you seem quite sure that it was a farmer who cut it down. What do you know that's not currently in the public domain?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There are suggestions on Twitter tonight that the motive might have been because this one protected tree was the reason for the rejection of an application to build a wind farm in the area.

Would anyone know if there have been any applications made and refused for the vicinity of that location?

 

[Busaholic]

If you're a farmer with ragwort on your land you dig it out before it gets eaten and kills.
If you're a farmer with yew trees on your land you fence them off. Same with laurel. Or laburnum. Or you fell them
If you've got wild parsnip, or water hemlock, you get the herbicide out.
Conceptually this is no different. Toxic non-native plant. Eradicate.

Do you not spot the great flaw in your argument? 'If you're' and 'if you've' suddenly don't apply in your fourth line. You may choose to 'eradicate' a sycamore tree on your own land, perhaps, but are you suggesting that any rural warrior can choose to go out and exterminate (my word, deliberately chosen) a tree or other plant or object on common or other people's land? Your last two sentences could have been uttered in a Dalek voice!

In any case, when does a 'non-native' plant lose that status? Surely a much-loved tree that's been there for two or three centuries can now be accepted as belonging. The Woodland Trust don't share your antipathy to the sycamore, which they say was introduced by the 15th century at the latest, possibly even by the Romans.

Lastly, and getting back to the topic of the thread, I don't think anyone has mentioned that a man in his 60s was arrested yesterday by police in connection with the incident and released today on bail. There may be lots to come out yet.

 

[randyrippley]

So whoever cut it down - even if a farmer - committed criminal damage on someone else's property.

And you seem quite sure that it was a farmer who cut it down. What do you know that's not currently in the public domain?

Nothing
My comments are pure speculation and not accusatory in any way.

 

[GusB]

Seeds
Thousands of them
Doesn't take many to kill a horse

Where did horses originate, as a matter of interest?

 

[randyrippley]

Where did horses originate, as a matter of interest?

North America
Then spread into Asia via the Bering sea landbridge. Then died out in the Americas

 

[Trackman]

No. Unless you enjoy the rampant paranoia of being one step from a nuclear holocaust ( the world very nearly didn't live through 1983 ), still the same regular outbreaks of domestic terrorism, the massive mess that was Britain in the the 70s, vastly more bigotry & inequality and you'd have left school into the worst recession we'd ever had.

Bonuses, there hadn't been a concerted attack on the welfare state - especially for students, although as a 70s kid you'd have missed the best parts.

Yes, the 70's were grim. Being born in the 60's I saw things go steadily downhill.

Back OT, I read a while back about some teenagers causing about £60,000 worth of damage in a graveyard - they got supervision orders (or something similar) and a token fine. If this had happened in the 70's they would have been packed off to borstal without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[GusB]

North America
Then spread into Asia via the Bering sea landbridge. Then died out in the Americas

So they're non-native, then. If sycamores are to be eradicated for being non-native, do we get rid of all the horses too?

 

[randyrippley]

So they're non-native, then. If sycamores are to be eradicated for being non-native, do we get rid of all the horses too?

Now that's a good idea.....four legged muck depositing mobile traffic chicanes. Get rid of them, make the roads safer.
Can I count on you to sign the petition to ban them?

I suppose the downside would be an increase in the price of burgers

 

[jon0844]

I suppose the downside would be an increase in the price of burgers

In the future we'll probably be eating Bully XL burgers..

 

[MatthewB75]

Society itself has just got worse and worse since 1990. Coming up to retirement in the next 5 - 7 years depending on how things go and have no intention whatsoever of staying in London. Sadly, it would appear London is emptying a lot of its "pleasant people" into neighbouring boroughs via the various councils. So will have to look even further afield to avoid the dreggs.

 

[alex397]

Society itself has just got worse and worse since 1990. Coming up to retirement in the next 5 - 7 years depending on how things go and have no intention whatsoever of staying in London. Sadly, it would appear London is emptying a lot of its "pleasant people" into neighbouring boroughs via the various councils. So will have to look even further afield to avoid the dreggs.

If you want to avoid the dreggs, I’d suggest an isolated area of the Scottish Highlands, or perhaps one of the small uninhabited islands we have.

 

[Trainguy34]

or perhaps one of the small uninhabited islands we have.

I've heard Anthrax Island is so good it can kill you. (I'll get my coat.)

 

[renegademaster]

I think it was a computer glitch at a Soviet tracking station , which showed multiple blips coupled with an unconnected big exercise ( lots of tanks) on Warsaw pack border, convinced some Soviets that they were under conventional and imminent nuclear attack. Luckly saner,cooler minds prevailed and the button wasnt pushed, but it was a very close call.

Nobody actually knew of the incident at the time, only got found out when Gorbachev opened up the Soviet archives

 

[75A]

If you want to avoid the dreggs, I’d suggest an isolated area of the Scottish Highlands, or perhaps one of the small uninhabited islands we have.

Or come to the Emerald Isle.

 

[Irascible]

That's debatable. The 2008 global financial crisis arguably affected the UK worse than this, plus it stimulated a prolonged period of austerity and the UK's economy and productivity still has not recovered fully from this, although the COVID induced recession at least partially contributed.

The 2008 recession was well after the late 80s/early 90s wreck an early 70s kid would leave school into. As I said, it was the worst we'd ever had. It wasn't necessarily the worst we've ever had now, although I'd like an objective comparison sometime because fading memory and subsequent events do tend to obscure quite how bad it was.

Are we still not one step from a nuclear or some other disaster.What happened in 1983 I can’t remember any thing that year and I lived through the Cuban crisis in the sixties and well remember that.

Technically, but we've got nothing like the level of paranoia these days no matter how much various governments like to stir up paranoia for their own benefit ( pretty much all of them at some point or other ). There was always that underlying fatalism that noone really realised was there until the 90s started & the cold war finished. I think it's generally agreed there were two near misses in 1983, not just the missile false alarm but the Able Archer exercise genuinely nearly triggered a full response because ( iirc ) the Soviets believed it was a cover for a full attack.

Or come to the Emerald Isle.

That'd be my choice - unfortunately one generation removed from a no questions asked passport to make the most of it. I will agree with whoever said London has got worse - I miss the place but there's no way I'd want to be living there these days. Not everywhere is worse though.