Just don't travel.... oh and "you can't use a train, that goes to the place on your ticket".

[Andy]

Humour me for a second... or sit back and think about how much of an embarrassment our Railways are in the United Kingdom. I'm not just talking about a governing country that's decided all their train announcements will start in a language only 29% of their own country speaks, never mind the services that run in England.

As you may be aware, on Saturday evening, the ECML's string, connected between two lamposts, decided again: if the staff can go on strike, so can I, and shut the mainline for nearly 24 hours. - The TOCs as well taking the thought of "f'it, it that doesn't want to work, why should we" and decided that "even though we've bought bi-modal" trains and have route knowledge on other routes for these situations, we'll run the minimal effort possible.

One of those TOCs was Hull Trains, who quickly decided to only run between Hull and Doncaster.

A friend was trying to travel from Selby to Basingstoke, and, on arrival at the station (Selby), was initially told, "Just don't travel today". - Really???!! Forget work commitments, children, accommodation any of that, just "don't go home". Let's not forget this is supposed to be "public transport", and we're supposed to be saving the planet by "using the train".

After a confused look along the lines of "wtf?" they were advised to get the next TPE service to Man Picc, then to London via Avanti into Euston, arriving some 2-3 hours later than the originally planned.

Onto the point of this post, and my apologies for my rambling so far. On arrival at Manchester Picc, the train on the next platform was a Cross Country Service to Bournemouth, stopping at.... Basingstoke. Now, you're on this forum and will know what comes next. However, for the "normals", that train goes to the place they want to go and the destination on their ticket. So why can't they use it? We know why, but put yourself in a "PAX" position. Why does the Railway in our country make it so complicated? Luckily, they asked the TM before boarding, who declined, and in the end, the decided to by another ticket from Manchester to use that service.

I understand it on a standard (well, the former is expected at the moment) day. However, provide a public service when it all goes up the spout, surely? Help the PAX, yet we wonder why the Railways have such a bad name. When you sit back and think about it, it's crazy that you can't use a train to go to the place for which you have bought a ticket to go to. Or is it just me?

 

[AM9]

Humour me for a second... or sit back and think about how much of an embarrassment our Railways are in the United Kingdom. I'm not just talking about a governing country that's decided all their train announcements will start in a language only 29% of their own country speaks, never mind the services that run in England.

As you may be aware, on Saturday evening, the ECML's string, connected between two lamposts, decided again: if the staff can go on strike, so can I, and shut the mainline for nearly 24 hours. - The TOCs as well taking the thought of "f'it, it that doesn't want to work, why should we" and decided that "even though we've bought bi-modal" trains and have route knowledge on other routes for these situations, we'll run the minimal effort possible.

One of those TOCs was Hull Trains, who quickly decided to only run between Hull and Doncaster.

A friend was trying to travel from Selby to Basingstoke, and, on arrival at the station (Selby), was initially told, "Just don't travel today". - Really???!! Forget work commitments, children, accommodation any of that, just "don't go home". Let's not forget this is supposed to be "public transport", and we're supposed to be saving the planet by "using the train".

After a confused look along the lines of "wtf?" they were advised to get the next TPE service to Man Picc, then to London via Avanti into Euston, arriving some 2-3 hours later than the originally planned.

Onto the point of this post, and my apologies for my rambling so far. On arrival at Manchester Picc, the train on the next platform was a Cross Country Service to Bournemouth, stopping at.... Basingstoke. Now, you're on this forum and will know what comes next. However, for the "normals", that train goes to the place they want to go and the destination on their ticket. So why can't they use it? We know why, but put yourself in a "PAX" position. Why does the Railway in our country make it so complicated? Luckily, they asked the TM before boarding, who declined, and in the end, the decided to by another ticket from Manchester to use that service.

I understand it on a standard (well, the former is expected at the moment) day. However, provide a public service when it all goes up the spout, surely? Help the PAX, yet we wonder why the Railways have such a bad name. When you sit back and think about it, it's crazy that you can't use a train to go to the place for which you have bought a ticket to go to. Or is it just me?

So what sort of ticket did you have?

 

[Andy]

So what sort of ticket did you have?

Me none.

They had an AP Selby - Baisingstoke.

 

[Watershed]

I agree with a lot of what you've said, though the reason for Hull Trains and the like not diverting won't just be down to "we can't be bothered", even if that's what it feels like.

What ticket(s) did your friend hold and what time what he travelling?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is my opinion, and remains so, that if you are using an Advance ticket (whether TOC specific or not) and your train is cancelled or a connection missed (or the delay is in excess of 59 minutes), it should become an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single automatically, allowing any suitable trains to be taken to complete the journey.

This is Deutsche Bahn's policy and is so much more reasonable.

This should also apply to any walk-up tickets with TOC or route restrictions in the event that sticking to those restrictions would cause a delay in excess of 59 minutes, in line with the right to re-routeing but making it easier if you don't have to faff about trying to ask someone to do it.

 

[A S Leib]

It is my opinion, and remains so, that if you are using an Advance ticket (whether TOC specific or not) and your train is cancelled or a connection missed (or the delay is in excess of 59 minutes), it should become an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single automatically, allowing any suitable trains to be taken to complete the journey.

This is Deutsche Bahn's policy and is so much more reasonable.

Agreed. It's also my opinion that if there's severe disruption (e.g. even with a roughly equal alternative route or next service you'd still be delayed 2+ hours) you should be able to use that ticket a full week later, instead of the current situation where – going off of TOC social media – tickets for disrupted weekend journeys only seem to be accepted up until the following Thursday or Friday, which seems useless for leisure travellers.

 

[Watershed]

Agreed. It's also my opinion that if there's severe disruption (e.g. even with a roughly equal alternative route or next service you'd still be delayed 2+ hours) you should be able to use that ticket a full week later, instead of the current situation where – going off of TOC social media – tickets for disrupted weekend journeys only seem to be accepted up until the following Thursday or Friday, which seems useless for leisure travellers.

That's already the case legally speaking under the PRO. However it seems to require getting the ticket redated or reissued, which is easier said than done seeing as just about no retailer has a process for doing so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's already the case legally speaking under the PRO. However it seems to require getting the ticket redated or reissued, which is easier said than done seeing as just about no retailer has a process for doing so.

Yes, the key to me would be this being an automatic right, not one where you have to find someone who knows about the right to re-routeing and getting them to agree it, which is so difficult it's basically impossible in most cases. That is, if your booked train is cancelled you can literally get on the next one (or leave it a few hours to quieten down*) and use any TOC.

What I would like to see, though, is it being part of the certification requirement for retailers that, like airline websites, if your train is cancelled you can opt to rebook at no additional cost to any future date or time on the same journey (via any permitted route) and get a seat reservation if that's your preference. It also would provide more reassurance than "oh, your ticket is valid next week" but some RPI doesn't realise and starts doling out MG11s or PFs (there's such a thread ongoing at the moment).

* The Advance rule of "next train" rather than "any later train that day" really does cause problems with overcrowding. As LM's Twitterer once advised, sometimes it's better to go to the pub and leave it a few hours to calm down even if it causes issues** with Delay Repay entitlement. This is one reason I don't generally do Advances.

** It shouldn't, though. What I tend to do is put in what I actually did but only select a delay commensurate with what I'd have experienced if I had taken the next train. But this seems to confuse them and either results in refusals or wrongful higher payments. It would help a lot if there was a Notes field for me to explain that!

 

[Puffing Devil]

It is my opinion, and remains so, that if you are using an Advance ticket (whether TOC specific or not) and your train is cancelled or a connection missed (or the delay is in excess of 59 minutes), it should become an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single automatically, allowing any suitable trains to be taken to complete the journey.

This is Deutsche Bahn's policy and is so much more reasonable.

This should also apply to any walk-up tickets with TOC or route restrictions in the event that sticking to those restrictions would cause a delay in excess of 59 minutes, in line with the right to re-routeing but making it easier if you don't have to faff about trying to ask someone to do it.

Yes, the key to me would be this being an automatic right, not one where you have to find someone who knows about the right to re-routeing and getting them to agree it, which is so difficult it's basically impossible in most cases. That is, if your booked train is cancelled you can literally get on the next one (or leave it a few hours to quieten down*) and use any TOC.

What I would like to see, though, is it being part of the certification requirement for retailers that, like airline websites, if your train is cancelled you can opt to rebook at no additional cost to any future date or time on the same journey (via any permitted route) and get a seat reservation if that's your preference. It also would provide more reassurance than "oh, your ticket is valid next week" but some RPI doesn't realise and starts doling out MG11s or PFs (there's such a thread ongoing at the moment).

* The Advance rule of "next train" rather than "any later train that day" really does cause problems with overcrowding. As LM's Twitterer once advised, sometimes it's better to go to the pub and leave it a few hours to calm down even if it causes issues** with Delay Repay entitlement. This is one reason I don't generally do Advances.

** It shouldn't, though. What I tend to do is put in what I actually did but only select a delay commensurate with what I'd have experienced if I had taken the next train. But this seems to confuse them and either results in refusals or wrongful higher payments. It would help a lot if there was a Notes field for me to explain that!

I like this!

 

[miklcct]

it should become an Any Permitted Anytime Day Single automatically, allowing any suitable trains to be taken to complete the journey.

Why should it be an Any Permitted, rather than to have route restrictions (but not TOC restrictions) still in effect? Why do you think that a train cancellation (rather than the outage of a complete route, in such case ticket acceptance is always arranged) should give the ticket holder the freedom to reroute?

 

[Andy]

Totally agree. If you've made the intentions to make the train you've been booked onto and it's cancelled. You should be able to be allowed to complete your journey in whatever way, is the easiest to get to the destination on your ticket. After that point.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, though the reason for Hull Trains and the like not diverting won't just be down to "we can't be bothered", even if that's what it feels like.

What ticket(s) did your friend hold and what time what he travelling?

I agree it's probably not "we can't be borthered" but it does seem that way. They've got route knowlage for the MML, technically it should have been possible for them to run at least one or two services that way through the day yesterday.

It was just a standard Advanced Purchase from Selby to Basingstoke.

 

[Starmill]

That's already the case legally speaking under the PRO. However it seems to require getting the ticket redated or reissued, which is easier said than done seeing as just about no retailer has a process for doing so.

I agree with this but I also think it could and should just be written into the Conditions as well as the Regulation.

 

[Andy]

Why should it be an Any Permitted, rather than to have route restrictions (but not TOC restrictions) still in effect? Why do you think that a train cancellation (rather than the outage of a complete route, in such case ticket acceptance is always arranged) should give the ticket holder the freedom to reroute?

It shoild be Any Permitted to assist the Customer and not inconvience them any further. - Take my example yesterday.
Railways are suppose to be a public service.

 

[lachlan]

Why should it be an Any Permitted, rather than to have route restrictions (but not TOC restrictions) still in effect? Why do you think that a train cancellation (rather than the outage of a complete route, in such case ticket acceptance is always arranged) should give the ticket holder the freedom to reroute?

Because it may become quicker to use a different route and one shouldn't have to faff around with seeking authorisation from staff or from Twitter (where they misunderstand the question or don't reply) before getting on with their journey

 

[Haywain]

They've got route knowlage for the MML, technically it should have been possible for them to run at least one or two services that way through the day yesterday.

They might have been able to consider that if the MML had not been closed for engineering work yesterday, between Bedford and Luton. However, a longer journey will make a significant difference to driver's and train crew rosters and may not be possible without knowing well in advance that it is needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should it be an Any Permitted, rather than to have route restrictions (but not TOC restrictions) still in effect? Why do you think that a train cancellation (rather than the outage of a complete route, in such case ticket acceptance is always arranged) should give the ticket holder the freedom to reroute?

Because they have been inconvenienced and so should be able to do what is necessary to achieve, or get as close to as possible, the journey timings they contracted when they booked.

 

[Andy]

They might have been able to consider that if the MML had not been closed for engineering work yesterday, between Bedford and Luton. However, a longer journey will make a significant difference to driver's and train crew rosters and may not be possible without knowing well in advance that it is needed.

Ah, I didn't clock the MML being shut.

Yeah, I agree, with rosters etc. However, it would surely be achievable if they ran a few double sets later in the afternoon for those who needed to get somewhere.

I think it is unacceptable the default answer today is just "travel tomorrow". Forget people have booked trains because they need to be somewhere. I can't think of many situations where someone would have purchased Advanced Purchase tickets for a particular day and then go, "ah no, tomorrow is fine ... will wait for me".

Why should it be an Any Permitted, rather than to have route restrictions (but not TOC restrictions) still in effect? Why do you think that a train cancellation (rather than the outage of a complete route, in such case ticket acceptance is always arranged) should give the ticket holder the freedom to reroute?

My point is/was, the first answer from the "Railways" was just "travel another day".

Ticket acceptance should be across the board, on days like yesterday when its total chaos and a complete line closure.

HT ticket acceptance was with TPE/Avanti. Not exactly a direct route.

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree we should need to have more flexibility about the re-routing. With split ticketing and the general expense of using cross country people often do journeys such as York - Bristol via London. This is where they it has all gone wrong as XC could argue well if you had paid what we had demanded you wouldn't have this problem would you? Why should we bail you out because your cheap option has gone wrong?

This was the perfect storm as the ECML is significantly busier with Anglo Scottish traffic then the WCML. So sending everything West was never going to fit. Add the shorter journeys and no MML we have a problem. But the rail industry does need a better way of dealing with the ECML when it fails. I have seen people do Doncaster - Peterborough in the 153. I have done York - Sheffield myself (back in the days when Sheffield - London was a HST). With passengers south of Sheffield pretty miffed all the seats were gone, and passengers from teh North annoyed they had to go via Sheffield.

Bring back Grant - he will make the trians run on time

 

[HullRailMan]

Totally agree. If you've made the intentions to make the train you've been booked onto and it's cancelled. You should be able to be allowed to complete your journey in whatever way, is the easiest to get to the destination on your ticket. After that point.



I agree it's probably not "we can't be borthered" but it does seem that way. They've got route knowlage for the MML, technically it should have been possible for them to run at least one or two services that way through the day yesterday.

It was just a standard Advanced Purchase from Selby to Basingstoke.

Nobody at HT has route knowledge for the MML - when they do run that way it’s with route conductors and they can’t be sourced at a drop of a hat. Plus, the MML was closed hence the only option was going via Manchester.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Back in the mists of time I had a nice day out from Billericay to Ely using, if I remember rightly, a GA special deal of £5 each way. Route Billericay-Shenfield-Ipswich-Ely. For the return trip, a freight train had broken down between Ely & Ipswich. I quickly re-routed as follows: Ely- Stansted Airport - Tottenham Hale - Stratford - Billericay. I would have got back to BIC much the same time as the original plan, if it had not been for animals on the line between Tottenham Hale and Stratford. No-one challenged the tickets.

 

[lachlan]

I agree we should need to have more flexibility about the re-routing. With split ticketing and the general expense of using cross country people often do journeys such as York - Bristol via London. This is where they it has all gone wrong as XC could argue well if you had paid what we had demanded you wouldn't have this problem would you? Why should we bail you out because your cheap option has gone wrong?

This was the perfect storm as the ECML is significantly busier with Anglo Scottish traffic then the WCML. So sending everything West was never going to fit. Add the shorter journeys and no MML we have a problem. But the rail industry does need a better way of dealing with the ECML when it fails. I have seen people do Doncaster - Peterborough in the 153. I have done York - Sheffield myself (back in the days when Sheffield - London was a HST). With passengers south of Sheffield pretty miffed all the seats were gone, and passengers from teh North annoyed they had to go via Sheffield.

Bring back Grant - he will make the trians run on time

Yes I once travelled from the north to Bristol via London as the tickets are much cheaper. My LNER was cancelled and the next train was the direct CrossCountry to Liverpool. Tried to argue with LNER and CrossCountry to allow me on that one but no luck - it seems the railway would rather delay me and have me claim the money back than to get me where I'm going as quickly as possible

 

[redreni]

Me none.

They had an AP Selby - Baisingstoke.

AP as in route "Any Permitted"?

 

[yorkie]

Sadly there are some people within the rail industry who see passengers as an inconvenience to the running of the railway.

There are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that passengers are protected when things go wrong; there are policies, but they are ignored by some TOCs/staff and the policies do not go far enough.

AP as in route "Any Permitted"?

In this context, it's Advance Purchase.

 

[Watershed]

Your friend may be entitled to claim back the cost of the fare used to travel on XC from Hull Trains (presuming they were the operator of the cancelled train from Selby?). Even if the XC service didn't result in the earliest anticipated arrival time (this would have depended on the state of Avanti and SWR services), re-routing should be subject to comparable transport conditions.

Since the original journey was to involve 2 changes, it is unreasonable to require the passenger to make 3 changes instead when a 1-change option is possible. Thus ticket acceptance should have included XC for journeys to the southwest of London. Indeed Hull Trains price through fares routed 'Hull Trains & SWR' so they should (in theory) be entirely aware that there will be passengers making such journeys.

In practice I imagine they will try and refuse to reimburse you. But there is certainly no harm in putting in a complaint/claim and seeing what they come back with.

 

[redreni]

Sadly there are some people within the rail industry who see passengers as an inconvenience to the running of the railway.

There are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure that passengers are protected when things go wrong; there are policies, but they are ignored by some TOCs/staff and the policies do not go far enough.


In this context, it's Advance Purchase.

Since the passenger bought a new ticket in circumstances where Hull Trains was obliged to re-route them, would there be a valid claim for reimbursement of the additional ticket cost, here?

If the passenger asked for advice and was told to go via Manchester, arguably they were entitled to assume they were being re-routed. Although I suspect if Hull Trains were in a particularly disingenuous mood, they could claim not to have been given an opportunity to re-route the passenger at the time.

 

[AlterEgo]

Because they have been inconvenienced and so should be able to do what is necessary to achieve, or get as close to as possible, the journey timings they contracted when they booked.

Quite. And I agree with your proposal.

 

[Haywain]

Your friend may be entitled to claim back the cost of the fare used to travel on XC from Hull Trains (presuming they were the operator of the cancelled train from Selby?).

Or can definitely claim back the original ticket price as the journey was abandoned at Manchester.

 

[Merseysider]

Since the passenger bought a new ticket in circumstances where Hull Trains was obliged to re-route them, would there be a valid claim for reimbursement of the additional ticket cost, here?

I certainly believe so.

The OP is welcome to post a draft email / letter here for proofreading - it’s not fair for passengers to be expected to pay more when their journey is disrupted.

 

[Starmill]

Because they have been inconvenienced and so should be able to do what is necessary to achieve, or get as close to as possible, the journey timings they contracted when they booked.

If you are setting a 60 minute expected delay condition then I agree this ia the absolute bare minimum. Any train, at any time, and by any route, by any provider party to the NRCoT, which minimises on delay in arrival time. So it'd actually be wider than the availability of any Any Permitted Anytime ticket.

 

[Kilopylae]

Since the passenger bought a new ticket in circumstances where Hull Trains was obliged to re-route them, would there be a valid claim for reimbursement of the additional ticket cost, here?

Yes, but it will be an argument; it took me a few months of back and forth with LNER to get them to accept the PRO in similar circumstances.