Justification for Network Railcard

[supervalkoinen]

There may have been a thread on this before, but I haven't seen it in my (limited) visits.

Even though I live well outside the south, I'm a holder of a Network RC, which I often use in journey planning.

What is the justification for such a regionally-based benefit?

 

[island]

Much the same as other railcards: to encourage passengers to make journeys by rail that they would otherwise either not make, or make by a different means.

 

[Oswyntail]

The clue is in the title. It was introduced as part of the Network South East launch, and became so popular that no one could consider doing away with it. The real question, which I have seen many times here, is why is there not a National rail card? To which the answer these days (as ever) is that the TOCs can get enough passengers without one so why bother.

 

[LexyBoy]

I thought that it was introduced to mitigate some of the price hikes introduced by NSE at some point, which made journeys in the SE much more expensive than elsewhere in the country... or have I just made that up?

Additionally, as others have said - to boost leisure travel. As it was started by BR as part of the NSE brand, I can't see any new Railcards appearing these days - not regional ones and certainly not a National one. TOCs prefer offers which tie passengers to their services, resulting in an increasingly complex mixture of offers available (but not necessarily known to many).

 

[yorksrob]

The Network SouthEast area had a particularly large disparity between heavy rush hour travel and more lightly used trains in the off-peak. The idea was to fill up the trains in the off-peak (which had to run anyway) and generate revenue (and generate revenue it did )

Interestingly, these fellows did a study as to whether a national network card would generate revenue and concluded that it probably would:

http://www.railwayconsultancy.com/pdf/nrcregional.pdf

Unfortunately (much as I'd love to see one) many regional railway routes have a lot less off-peak train capacity than the South East. There's also the structure of the railway in the way as others have alluded.

 

[WatcherZero]

I did the maths and even though I travel roughly once a fortnight I would be well short of the 650 miles per year required to break even in those figures o.O

 

[Zoe]

Outside of the South East area discounted travel is already available due to advance fares.

 

[NSEFAN]

But there's no discount for walkup fares in the off peak.

 

[Zoe]

But there's no discount for walkup fares in the off peak.

Correct but people can still get the discount by booking in advance. Some of the discounts available by booking in advance are more than a third of the Off Peak fare so you save more than with a Network Railcard.

 

[NSEFAN]

Correct but people can still get the discount by booking in advance. Some of the discounts available by booking in advance are more than a third of the Off Peak fare so you save more than with a Network Railcard.

I know the advance fares are cheap. I recently found a first class advance fare from SOA to RDG which was cheaper than the walk up standard fare! It was quite nice actually; not having to sit in the vestibules like many other passengers!

What is annoying is that cheaper fares aren't consistently available under advance fare schemes. Yes, I could book earlier in advance, but it's not the same as having a card with fixed discount rules that I know will work every time.

 

[Failed Unit]

Correct but people can still get the discount by booking in advance. Some of the discounts available by booking in advance are more than a third of the Off Peak fare so you save more than with a Network Railcard.

Really? Try telling that to people on former regional railways routes. What routes do Northern offer them on? Not much of Scotrail has advanced. So please don't come with that. The majority of people have no access to APs!

 

[Zoe]

Really? Try telling that to people on former regional railways routes. What routes do Northern offer them on? Not much of Scotrail has advanced. So please don't come with that. The majority of people have no access to APs!

Advance fares are often only available on medium or long distance routes although there are some cases where they are available on short routes. Even with the Network Railcard there is a minimum fare so you can't use the card for short journeys. In some former Regional Railways areas though local railcards are available and these give a discount. For inercity services though advance fares give the discound so I can't see there will ever be a railcard valid on all services. That said there may well be a case for more regional railcards.

 

[Failed Unit]

Advance fares are often only available on medium or long distance routes although there are some cases where they are available on short routes. Even with the Network Railcard there is a minimum fare so you can't use the card for short journeys. In some former Regional Railways areas though local railcards are available and these give a discount. For inercity services though advance fares give the discound so I can't see there will ever be a railcard valid on all services. That said there may well be a case for more regional railcards.

They are available but on the minority of flows. I can get to London from my local station cheaper than I can get to dundee! It is annoying ATOC speak about APs when you want to do journeys like Market Rasen - Nottingham / Sheffield etc. (or in fact any flow not priced be east coast)
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Advance fares are often only available on medium or long distance routes although there are some cases where they are available on short routes. Even with the Network Railcard there is a minimum fare so you can't use the card for short journeys. In some former Regional Railways areas though local railcards are available and these give a discount. For inercity services though advance fares give the discound so I can't see there will ever be a railcard valid on all services. That said there may well be a case for more regional railcards.

They are available but on the minority of flows. I can get to London from my local station cheaper than I can get to dundee! It is annoying ATOC speak about APs when you want to do journeys like Market Rasen - Nottingham / Sheffield etc. (or in fact any flow not priced be east coast)

I would consider Linlithgow - inverness short distance but no AP on it either, you must buy 2 tickets and get the AP from Edinburgh. How is the casual user supposed to know that?

 

[yorksrob]

Advance purchase fares aren't really comparable with a network card style discount as, with the exception of a couple of franchises which see themselves as premium operators, they are restricted to Inter City routes. In addition to this, medium distance travel doesn't lend itself as easily to advanced booking as long distance.

As I mentioned earlier, the real reason I suspect a National scheme wasn't adopted was that there was a lot more off-peak capacity on a VEP for example than a Pacer.

 

[Failed Unit]

I can think of many medium and long distance journeys with no APs. Leeds - Carlisle anyone?

 

[yorksrob]

I did the maths and even though I travel roughly once a fortnight I would be well short of the 650 miles per year required to break even in those figures o.O

I'm not sure how they work out those figures but I sometimes do a rough calculation regarding the network card (being someone who visits the Southern Region a few times a year) and it seems to me that I'd only need to make around three return trips from London to Ashford to break even (the 50% discount for a national card would be much more generous than the current third off from a network card).

Unfortunately that tends to be roughly the number of those journeys that I would make in a year so I'm always a bit too marginal to buy one. If all of my non Inter City journeys were taken in to account for a 50% discount it would be a no-brainer.
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I can think of many medium and long distance journeys with no APs. Leeds - Carlisle anyone?

I'd have thought that the vast majority don't have AP. The only ones which do that spring to mind are TPE.

 

[WestCoast]

I'd have thought that the vast majority don't have AP. The only ones which do that spring to mind are TPE.

Northern offer no APs, even on their longer routes such as Blackpool North - York, Leeds - Carlisle and Nottingham - Leeds.

 

[Failed Unit]

If a national railcard existed for me personally it would probably result in by buying more walk on tickets than APs. I use APs but prefer the walk ons. I suspect that if such a rail card existed the use of it with APs would either be restricted or the APs would increase in price.

I can't see such a card ever existing, on the routes in lincolnshire they have less seats available off peak than in the peak. Even Scotrail don't have much spare capacity off peak. Yes they can run longer trains but will the TOCs want to burn more diesel for empty trains? I suspect not.

 

[WestCoast]

If a national railcard existed for me personally it would probably result in by buying more walk on tickets than APs. I use APs but prefer the walk ons. I suspect that if such a rail card existed the use of it with APs would either be restricted or the APs would increase in price.

That may depend upon the price charged for such a card and what the take-up rates were. If it was restricted to post-10am fares like the YP, I feel there would be no restriction.

 

[island]

I can think of many medium and long distance journeys with no APs. Leeds - Carlisle anyone?

Leeds-Carlisle has advances defined, priced by East Coast, although I'm not sure if they actually have any quota.

 

[WestCoast]

Leeds-Carlisle has advances defined, priced by East Coast, although I'm not sure if they actually have any quota.

The Leeds - Carlisle flow is priced by Northern, so no APs. East Coast will sell "EC & CONNECTNS" tickets (there is also TPE & CONNECTNS tickets) - where some of the journey has to be an Advance on one of their trains.They have no right to offer APs solely on Leeds - Carlisle.

As this is a connection, you wouldn't be tied to one train if you bought that ticket for the Leeds - Carlisle section.

 

[Zoe]

In addition to this, medium distance travel doesn't lend itself as easily to advanced booking as long distance.

I agree but this doesn't stop FGW offering advance fares on the Swindon to London route. The Swindon to London walk-up fare is quite expensive and is just outside the Network Railcard area and also has no day returns available. This isn't the type of journey I would have expected to book in advance but the advance fares offer quite a discount.

 

[43167]

National Railcard would good. Its sadly never got passed the talking stage.

 

[WestCoast]

I agree but this doesn't stop FGW offering advance fares on the Swindon to London route. The Swindon to London walk-up fare is quite expensive and is just outside the Network Railcard area and also has no day returns available. This isn't the type of journey I would have expected to book in advance but the advance fares offer quite a discount.

There must be some good splitting points to get day returns on the walk-up fare?

 

[Flamingo]

I agree but this doesn't stop FGW offering advance fares on the Swindon to London route. The Swindon to London walk-up fare is quite expensive and is just outside the Network Railcard area and also has no day returns available. This isn't the type of journey I would have expected to book in advance but the advance fares offer quite a discount.

Split at Didcot, provided the train stops there, Didcot is in the NSE area. Lots do. Not all of them listen to the warning that the train doesn't stop at Didcot therefore the split ticket is invalid.

 

[Zoe]

In my experience of using split tickets (on a different route) the ticket office staff don't usually seem very happy about it. Twice they have tried to refuse me a split and when they realized that they had to issue the tickets I asked for they were still not very happy issueing them. Would the Swindon ticket office even be able to issue a Didcot to London fare with a Network Railcard discount?

 

[yorksrob]

I agree but this doesn't stop FGW offering advance fares on the Swindon to London route. The Swindon to London walk-up fare is quite expensive and is just outside the Network Railcard area and also has no day returns available. This isn't the type of journey I would have expected to book in advance but the advance fares offer quite a discount.

Indeed, but the vast majority of middle distance journeys in the Regional Railways area tend not to have advance purchase discounts. If the aim was to increase off-peak usage in this area, a National Network card would easily be the best way to do this, although the thorny issue of capacity will always get in the way for the time being.

 

[yorkie]

Leeds-Carlisle has advances defined, priced by East Coast, although I'm not sure if they actually have any quota.

To clarify, the system will only allow an EC & Connections where the journey involves an EC train, so a typical itineary for Leeds to Carlisle on such a ticket would be one of XC/TPE/NT to York, then EC to Newcastle, then NT to Carlisle. As NT do not do reservations, quotas are not applicable to any leg of a journey undertaken on a Northern train.

 

[radamfi]

I suspect that railcard discounted fares in the SE essentially bring down off-peak fares to roughly the same level as in the rest of the country.

 

[Zoe]

Indeed, but the vast majority of middle distance journeys in the Regional Railways area tend not to have advance purchase discounts. If the aim was to increase off-peak usage in this area, a National Network card would easily be the best way to do this, although the thorny issue of capacity will always get in the way for the time being.

The issue with having it valid on all services is TOCs could lose revenue if people switch away from advance fares where the TOC gets all the revenue to walk-up fares where they only get the ORCATS share. If more people used walk-up fares on intercity routes you would also have the potential for more overcrowding. This could be reduced by increasing the price of advance fares but that is never going to be popular, I doubt many would want to give up the rock bottom advance fares in exchange for a discount on walk-up fares.