Keeping tickets for expenses claims etc

[Mike395]

Have just been looking round the ScotRail site and I've come across this PDF outlining new ticket gates going in at Charing Cross (Scotland!).

One bit of wording worries me slightly. ScotRail state that:

Your ticket will automatically be retained by the ticket gate if it
is the end of your journey. If your ticket is needed for onward
travel, the ticket gate will return it to you.
If you need proof of purchase for an expenses claim, please
request a receipt when you buy your ticket. Receipts cannot be
issued retrospectively, and used tickets cannot be retrieved
from the ticket gates

They then directly contradict themselves by saying:

If you need to keep your ticket in order to make a compensation
claim or a complaint about your journey, please ask a member
of staff for assistance.

What's the official line on keeping tickets? (for whatever reason, surely it shouldnt make a difference as to whether its for expenses, proof of travel, compensation, to keep as a souvenir etc)....and it's a downright inaccuracy saying that tickets cant be retrieved from the machines - I've personally had a incorrectly programmed barrier eat my ticket which was valid for onward travel.

 

[SS4]

You could blag it to the staff on the gate that your ticket isn't working lol and with luck they'll pass you through (IIRC they have passes to open gates?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Failing that get a cheap-ass ticket for the barrier to swallow. I'm sure the barrier staff wouldn't mind though

 

[stut]

I've never had a problem going to a manned gate and asking to keep the ticket for expenses, in over a decade of regular business travel!

 

[Stigy]

Have just been looking round the ScotRail site and I've come across this PDF outlining new ticket gates going in at Charing Cross (Scotland!).

One bit of wording worries me slightly. ScotRail state that:



They then directly contradict themselves by saying:



What's the official line on keeping tickets? (for whatever reason, surely it shouldnt make a difference as to whether its for expenses, proof of travel, compensation, to keep as a souvenir etc)....and it's a downright inaccuracy saying that tickets cant be retrieved from the machines - I've personally had a incorrectly programmed barrier eat my ticket which was valid for onward travel.

Making a claim against the company or a complaint against them wouldn't be known at the time you purchase the ticket, whereas an expenses claim would be. It's completely different, hence the ability to request a receipt.

Having said that, I've found that staff tend to let you keep the ticket if you explain to them at the barrier you need to keep it, and hand it to them as opposed to puting it in the barriers. Even then they often retrieve the ticket for you, they just grunt at you sometimes. The correct procedure would be to get a receipt when you purchase the ticket, and the staff have every right to retain the ticket if they wish.

 

[Zoe]

If you want to claim for expenses then you should get a receipt. You have no right to keep tickets after your journey, they are the property of the railway. I actually had a selection of old tickets confiscated once due to this.

 

[stut]

The correct procedure would be to get a receipt when you purchase the ticket

Does a receipt state what was purchased (incl date of journey, origin and destination and value of each individual ticket)? Without this information, it's nigh on useless for an expense claim.

 

[WestCoast]

If you want to claim for expenses then you should get a receipt.

Receipts don't give the information that many people need to show their employers e.t.c. Some employers want proof it was a standard class ticket for example.

You have no right to keep tickets after your journey, they are the property of the railway. I actually had a selection of old tickets confiscated once due to this.

Technically you are correct, but who "confiscated" tickets from you? Seems a very strange thing to do.

Often travellers have to retain their tickets for Delay Claims, if a member tried to remove a ticket from me in these circumstances I would be lodging a formal complaint.

If all tickets were stamped by identifiable codes (such as those seen on Virgin Trains), there would be less of a need to remove tickets from people. I firmly disagree with barriers retaining tickets - I feel there is no need.

 

[Stigy]

Does a receipt state what was purchased (incl date of journey, origin and destination and value of each individual ticket)? Without this information, it's nigh on useless for an expense claim.

Whenever you make a claim for expenses a receipt usually surfices. It'll have the date/time and cost on it. I'd imagine they also state the number for which the receipt ralates will be present. So, unless you're in two places at once, at exactly the same time, it would be impossible to get one over on the boss, surely?

 

[All Line Rover]

Why on earth do ticket gates retain tickets anyway?

My view is that it's simply to prevent people from claiming compensation, as you always need the ticket to do so. Whenever a train is late enough for people to claim compensation I never see staff leaving the ticket gates open - they leave them shut to take everyone's tickets!

 

[Zoe]

Technically you are correct, but who "confiscated" tickets from you? Seems a very strange thing to do.

It was a few years back at Taunton, they were doing an inspection by the stairs. I handed my ticket for the journey but inspector then said to me quite abruptly "What are all those tickets?" that he noticed I had in a bag. I said they were old tickets but then he said that tickets must be disposed of once you complete your journey and took them off me.

 

[Stigy]

Why on earth do ticket gates retain tickets anyway?

My view is that it's simply to prevent people from claiming compensation, as you always need the ticket to do so. Whenever a train is late enough for people to claim compensation I never see staff leaving the ticket gates open - they leave them shut to take everyone's tickets!

Probably to stop littering! Have you seen how many tickets are strewn all over the floor at un-barriered stations, or when the barriers are un-staffed? Also it helps prevent fraud (Ever noticed how many Travelcards are left on top of the barriers when they're unstaffed?)

 

[Zoe]

Why on earth do ticket gates retain tickets anyway?

To prevent people trying to use a ticket more than once.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Why on earth do ticket gates retain tickets anyway?

My view is that it's simply to prevent people from claiming compensation, as you always need the ticket to do so. Whenever a train is late enough for people to claim compensation I never see staff leaving the ticket gates open - they leave them shut to take everyone's tickets!

Nice tin foil hat?

 

[Deerfold]

Whenever you make a claim for expenses a receipt usually surfices. It'll have the date/time and cost on it. I'd imagine they also state the number for which the receipt ralates will be present. So, unless you're in two places at once, at exactly the same time, it would be impossible to get one over on the boss, surely?

Oddly enough that's not the case for either me or my wife's previous job (in her current job they've been buying her tickets for her in advance so this hasn't conme up). Her previous employer was the Civil Service - so in itself that's plenty of people who can't just give a receipt - she had to provide a receipt *and* the tickets.

 

[Weary Walker]

My understanding is that it is that companies have a legal obligation to requirethe ticket for the expenses claim, not a receipt.
The details as I understand them are as follows:
One of the Finance Acts during the time Gordon Brown was chancellor had a requirement that firms dealing with Europe adopt a set of accounting principals (GAAP - Generally Accepted Accountancy Principals)
The only way of complying with these in respect of tickets for travel is for the emplyer to purchase the ticket, or if the employee purchases the ticket, the ticket must be submitted before expenses can be paid.
I may be wrong on the exact details but I believe I have the gist of the situation.

 

[WestCoast]

It was a few years back at Taunton, they were doing an inspection by the stairs. I handed my ticket for the journey but inspector then said to me quite abruptly "What are all those tickets?" that he noticed I had in a bag. I said they were old tickets but then he said that tickets must be disposed of once you complete your journey and took them off me.

There is no need to act in such a manner. It's people like that who give the railways a name for rudeness and being against the passenger.

Yes, the ticket remains the property of the railway, but there's nothing to say it has to be disposed of once the journey has been completed!

No-one would be penalised for keeping an airline boarding pass, would they?

Some people keep tickets for memories, some for records and people will appreciate a reminder of heritage in the future. Ticket inspectors should be catching fare-dodgers, not people who have paid for their tickets!

 

[Stigy]

Although legally he's correct, there is no need to act in such a manner. It's people like that who give the railways a name for rudeness and being against the passenger.

What law states that you have to dispose of all tickets once they have been used? The only way it would be naughty to keep old tickets would be if you were using them fraudulently.

Edit: Just noticed the edit...I was a bit quick off the mark there!

 

[philjo]

If you want to claim for expenses then you should get a receipt. You have no right to keep tickets after your journey, they are the property of the railway. I actually had a selection of old tickets confiscated once due to this.

The information shown on the receipts issues by FCC are not sufficient to make a claim as work require to see the class & date of travel & ticket type & origin/destination stations - all of which are shown on the ticket but not on the receipt (the receipt shows the date of payment, not the date of travel).

Fortunately for me the 1st section of every trip to/from home is covered by my annual season ticket so I never need to put the return portion of the ticket purchsed through a barrier at the end of the journey so I can always retain it (or if travelling in the opposite direction I just put the season through the barrier anyway).

 

[WestCoast]

What law states that you have to dispose of all tickets once they have been used? The way it would be naughty to keep old tickets would be if you were using them fraudulently, surely?

I've changed the wording of the post, you are absolutely correct, there is no byelaw to say tickets should be destroyed like a bank statement!

It smacks of "make it up as you go along", an attitude which I dislike very much.

 

[stut]

Oddly enough that's not the case for either me or my wife's previous job (in her current job they've been buying her tickets for her in advance so this hasn't conme up). Her previous employer was the Civil Service - so in itself that's plenty of people who can't just give a receipt - she had to provide a receipt *and* the tickets.

Same here - I've done several (private sector) jobs, and all of them have insisted on the ticket. For consultancy work, expenses are often passed down to clients, who need to know exactly what the journey was.

Now I work for myself, there's no way I'd get away without providing this level of proof of journey to clients.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The tickets are the property of the Railway, thus they can be withdrawn by the Railway at any time. Of course, if you're travelling legitimately on a correct ticket then it's unlikely to happen, and they should provide you with evidence.

 

[Zoe]

Some people keep tickets for memories, some for records and people will appreciate a reminder of heritage in the future. Ticket inspectors should be catching fare-dodgers, not people who have paid for their tickets!

At the time I used to keep every ticket as a historical record of my journeys. I had built up quite a stock by that time so was not happy at all to have them taken off me like that. Maybe I should have refused to let him take the LT travelcards though as they are not TOC property unless of course issues by the TOC which these were not.

 

[WestCoast]

At the time I used to keep every ticket as a historical record of my journeys. I had built up quite a stock by that time so was not happy at all to have them taken off me like that. Maybe I should have refused to let him take the LT travelcards though as they are not TOC property unless of course issues by the TOC which these were not.

I'd have refused any to be taken away personally, without evidence to say why this was completely necessary.

 

[sheff1]

Whenever you make a claim for expenses a receipt usually surfices. It'll have the date/time and cost on it. I'd imagine they also state the number for which the receipt ralates will be present. So, unless you're in two places at once, at exactly the same time, it would be impossible to get one over on the boss, surely?

My experience is the same as others - to claim expenses you have always needed to submit an actual ticket rather than a receipt.

If Scotrail really do implement their stated policy, I would expect a number of business people to be in touch with their MSPs very quickly.

 

[Old Timer]

Seems to be a lot of differing views and misunderstandings here.

Firstly tickets are the property of the Railway and remain so. Any TOC may retain the ticket at the end of the journey under the Byelaws. Passengers have no rights to retain a ticket for whatever purpose.


Secondly, a TOC may advise a passenger to retain a ticket for the purposes of obtaining a refund or to supply the ticket on which they travelled. The TOC has the right to do so as it owns the ticket, and in any case is actually recovering the ticket.

This situation has existed since railways started so its not a case of making anything up as you go along.

General Account Principles, et, etc, are actually Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. The purpose being to set common standards against which report their financial performance. GAAPs do not set rules that require travel tickets to be retained. GAAPs are actually now well on the way out, having beien replaced by International Financial Accounting Standards - used in the EU and by most non-EU Countries. GAAP is now only used in the US. IFAS says absolutely nothing about retaining railway tickets.

HMRC do not require any evidence other than a receipt for the amount of money paid to be held by the employer. Companies who insist on having the actual ticket are not in compliance with HMRC procedures. This "requirement" would appear to come from an inate distrust of either THEIR inability to manage their expenses and/or a total lack of trust in the honesty of their employees.

As there is no legal necessity for them to have the ticket the requirement appears to descend from someone within the accounting function who want them for "the sake of completeness" or some other reason which revolves around their lack of confidence to accept a receipt. A receipt can always be accompanied by a simple screen print of the relevant fare for the journey from a Railway website.

Any Auditor or Accountant will confirm this.

Finally a Company cannot refuse to pay expenses if a ticket is not provided (because it may have been withdrawn) as long as a receipt or other evidence of the ticket having been purchased is supplied. Speak to your Trade Union rep or alternatively call the HMRC revenue helpline who will take further action. Alternatively an Employment Solicitor will quickly resolve matters - Every Company HR Director is scared witless at the possibility of something trivial ending up in Court, especially an ET. HR Directors have immense power and that power should NEVER be under-estimated. I have known very senior staff removed at the insistence of the HR Director.

 

[table38]

A company I used to work for insisted on seeing the tickets in order to make an expense claim.

Apparently some staff, who had "wet" company cars had been buying rail tickets, but driving instead, and then getting a cash refund for the unused tickets.

 

[WestCoast]

Seems to be a lot of differing views and misunderstandings here.

Firstly tickets are the property of the Railway and remain so. Any TOC may retain the ticket at the end of the journey under the Byelaws. Passengers have no rights to retain a ticket for whatever purpose.

Secondly, a TOC may advise a passenger to retain a ticket for the purposes of obtaining a refund or to supply the ticket on which they travelled. The TOC has the right to do so as it owns the ticket, and in any case is actually recovering the ticket.

That all sounds fine in theory, but the TOC is not one single person (or even a single company at times) is it? My big problem is that tickets do need to be removed from the railway for various reasons and as such, they should be allowed to do so.

What on-train staff say, doesn't always tally with some gateline staff, who are determined to take the ticket away. The rules are making rail travel more difficult for those who need to make delay claims or expense claims.

We have paid for that ticket, regardless of the rules currently, I personally feel the ticket holder should be able to keep tickets which are perfectly legitimate. If tickets were stamped correctly by guards and RPIs using a system of headcodes (not biro circles or none at all) - then reuse of certain abused ticket types would be much more difficult. I presume preventing reuse is the only reason why legitimate tickets are retained?

What right have staff to remove tickets that are years old as in a case in this thread? Where does it state that used tickets have to be destroyed after use?

Anyway, when we have smartcards, at least one benefit is that these farcical outdated rules cannot be applied.

 

[Failed Unit]

A company I used to work for insisted on seeing the tickets in order to make an expense claim.

Apparently some staff, who had "wet" company cars had been buying rail tickets, but driving instead, and then getting a cash refund for the unused tickets.

a lot of hastle, but the other way is more likely to be honest. Cliaming petrol and then taking the train. At 42ppm most journeys by car will get you more than the train fare. All you need to provide a petrol receipt, and not one for your destination. If I drive to Manchester that is nearly £200, much more than by train. However the company would question why I drove. If the really want to check all they need to do is look up the fare online. If an off-peak standard is £10 they can then ask why a reciept for £20 was submitted!

 

[table38]

a lot of hastle, but the other way is more likely to be honest. Claiming petrol and then taking the train. At 42ppm most journeys by car will get you more than the train fare. All you need to provide a petrol receipt, and not one for your destination. If I drive to Manchester that is nearly £200, much more than by train. However the company would question why I drove. If the really want to check all they need to do is look up the fare online. If an off-peak standard is £10 they can then ask why a reciept for £20 was submitted!

Despite providing a car a part of the job, they never really minded if you drove or got the train. In fact the usual MO was to drive to Gatwick and get the GatEx which involved a claim for short-stay parking too. However because they were "wet" cars (so we got "free" petrol), in the scenario I described, they objected because they were effectively paying twice!

I just remember having a minor argument about keeping a ticket once at Gatwick.

Oh, and it was about 1988, so I can't remember the relative merits of the cost of train travel vs. petrol

 

[W-on-Sea]

My understanding is that it is that companies have a legal obligation to requirethe ticket for the expenses claim, not a receipt.
The details as I understand them are as follows:
One of the Finance Acts during the time Gordon Brown was chancellor had a requirement that firms dealing with Europe adopt a set of accounting principals (GAAP - Generally Accepted Accountancy Principals)
The only way of complying with these in respect of tickets for travel is for the emplyer to purchase the ticket, or if the employee purchases the ticket, the ticket must be submitted before expenses can be paid.
I may be wrong on the exact details but I believe I have the gist of the situation.

Hmm, I think Old Timer clearly knows what's what. My employers don't demand the ticket for travel expenses - they are perfectly happy with a print-out of the email received from whichever company I've bought the tickets with detailing the fares and destination. And for travel within London done using Oyster Pay-as-you-go they don't require any documentation at all - it's done on trust. I seem to recall that HMCI explicitly stated that this was acceptable.