Keir Starmer and the Labour Party

[Gloster]

Doesn't stop that sanctimonious creep Shapps from moralising over it though...

Would that be Grant Shapps or Michael Green or Corinne Stockheath or Sebastian Fox sanctimoniously moralising about the need for MPs to be honest?

I very much doubt that Rayner has does anything wrong: Starmer has got enough nouse to have the whole thing checked as soon as the M**l started off. If Rayner has done anything beyond the mildest technical infringement (and I am not saying that she has even done that), but continued to dodge the question, she would know that her career was shot. I think that Labour is wise enough to know that they can’t cover anything up and letting it run for a while before admitting something is the worst option.

I believe that the person who has pressed for the police to investigate is the MP for North West Durham, Richard Holden, who also happens to be the Chairman of the Conservative Party and the person who pushed the Durham police to reopen the ‘Beergate’ enquiry, which for the record, found nothing. But I am sure that Holden’s aim is nothing more than to ensure that MPs are seen to have the highest standards.

 

[JamesT]

Hadn't read the article, didn't realise that they'd moved on to electoral roll violations. Makes sense, given that where tax matters are concerned the phrase "glass houses" springs to mind for some reason.

I think someone else on the thread suggested tax matters would be investigated by HMRC rather than the police. It’s not clear whether it’s moved on or if HMRC are also looking at this.

Isn't the crux of the matter simply that she considered her house to still be her home for some time after she got married, since she wasn't living in her husband's house full time?

That’s what she’s claiming. Though I’ve seen claims that her brother was living in the house rather than her, and that neighbours claim she was living full time with her husband.

 

[nw1]

Would that be Grant Shapps or Michael Green or Corinne Stockheath or Sebastian Fox sanctimoniously moralising about the need for MPs to be honest?

I very much doubt that Rayner has does anything wrong: Starmer has got enough nouse to have the whole thing checked as soon as the M**l started off. If Rayner has done anything beyond the mildest technical infringement (and I am not saying that she has even done that), but continued to dodge the question, she would know that her career was shot. I think that Labour is wise enough to know that they can’t cover anything up and letting it run for a while before admitting something is the worst option.

I believe that the person who has pressed for the police to investigate is the MP for North West Durham, Richard Holden, who also happens to be the Chairman of the Conservative Party and the person who pushed the Durham police to reopen the ‘Beergate’ enquiry, which for the record, found nothing. But I am sure that Holden’s aim is nothing more than to ensure that MPs are seen to have the highest standards.

I do agree that she should resign if she did break the law, even if unintentionally.

But the concept of these sanctimonious and far from blameless people such as Daly and Shapps moralising over it really winds me up. It just makes you think of the biblical passage about "the plank in your own eye".

Assuming she does have to resign, what effect do people think this will have on the GE? Does it raise the spectre of a Tory win?

 

[Ediswan]

Assuming she does have to resign, what effect do people think this will have on the GE? Does it raise the spectre of a Tory win?

At the speed the legal process moves, is there any chance of being found guilty before the GE ?

 

[Busaholic]

I do agree that she should resign if she did break the law, even if unintentionally.

But the concept of these sanctimonious and far from blameless people such as Daly and Shapps moralising over it really winds me up.

Assuming she does have to resign, what effect do people think this will have on the GE? Does it raise the spectre of a Tory win?

This nonsense infuriates me. Nadhim Zahawi was eventually forced into paying over £5 million to HMRC, including a 30% penalty, for attempting evasion of Capital Gains Tax owed, as well as spending a small fortune on threatening lawyers' letters to journalists attempting to investigate the matter, and wasn't required to stand down as an MP or ever offered to do so! Where were the Daily Mail and 'Lord' Non-Dom Ashcroft while all this was going on? Answers on a postcard. Apparently the maximum Capital Gains Tax that Rayner may have avoided if an alternative scenario to her living arrangements is accepted is £1.500, the sort of sum that Ashcroft wouldn't bother asking his factotum to pick up if it fell out of his capacious pocket.

Neither Starmer nor Rayner should pander to this Puritanical nonsense (I see the former's fingerprints all over it) any more than they should have done over Beergate. I can think of many Labour figures from the past, not all leaders, whose rhetoric would have demolished this at first base. Unfortunately the new, managerial 'don't scare the horses at any stage' party is so paranoid about power slipping from their grasp when they're so close to getting it they'll promise self-flagellation to the nth degree. God, I loathe masochists: they all need a good flogging, except they'd enjoy it.

 

[ComUtoR]

It is political manoeuvring at its best. She was the biggest threat to Kier Starmer's Leadership and personally, I think she would have been successful.

Sadly, like the rest of them, she has her nose in the trough. Whether or not she committed a crime or broke policy, rules, regulations or whatever. Morally, she without a doubt, crossed a line. She is no different to any of them and used the system to her own personal gain. Insiders knew what she did and have positioned her back against the wall and sullied any hope of her ousting Kier.

The closer we get to an election, the sharper the knives get.

 

[Gloster]

At the speed the legal process moves, is there any chance of being found guilty before the GE ?

Oh, the Conservatives and the M**l really hope it isn’t settled before the election. Much better to keep on spreading vague smears than to have it shown that there is little or nothing to get angry about.

 

[The Ham]

Oh, the Conservatives and the M**l really hope it isn’t settled before the election. Much better to keep on spreading vague smears than to have it shown that there is little or nothing to get angry about.

As others have highlighted even if something was found to have been done incorrectly it's likely to be minor in comparison to what others have done.

Even being registered to view in the wrong house, as long as she wasn't registered in two places, whilst technically wrong isn't likely to have changed the outcome overly much (which leads to the question, would her husband's house been in a different constituency anyway? As if it's not then it's an even smaller impact).

 

[JamesT]

This nonsense infuriates me. Nadhim Zahawi was eventually forced into paying over £5 million to HMRC, including a 30% penalty, for attempting evasion of Capital Gains Tax owed, as well as spending a small fortune on threatening lawyers' letters to journalists attempting to investigate the matter, and wasn't required to stand down as an MP or ever offered to do so! Where were the Daily Mail and 'Lord' Non-Dom Ashcroft while all this was going on? Answers on a postcard. Apparently the maximum Capital Gains Tax that Rayner may have avoided if an alternative scenario to her living arrangements is accepted is £1.500, the sort of sum that Ashcroft wouldn't bother asking his factotum to pick up if it fell out of his capacious pocket.

Neither Starmer nor Rayner should pander to this Puritanical nonsense (I see the former's fingerprints all over it) any more than they should have done over Beergate. I can think of many Labour figures from the past, not all leaders, whose rhetoric would have demolished this at first base. Unfortunately the new, managerial 'don't scare the horses at any stage' party is so paranoid about power slipping from their grasp when they're so close to getting it they'll promise self-flagellation to the nth degree. God, I loathe masochists: they all need a good flogging, except they'd enjoy it.

It’s live by the sword, die by the sword. Rayner is often the first to call for other politicians to resign when accused of impropriety. She tweeted a couple of years ago that being under police investigation should have been grounds for Boris to resign, for example…

 

[najaB]

She tweeted a couple of years ago that being under police investigation should have been grounds for Boris to resign, for example…

In that case, I agree that she should resign from the position of Prime Minister. Oh, wait a sec...

 

[SynthD]

The most worrying aspect for me is that she was so stupid that she didn't get her affairs in order. I'm not sure she is bright enough to be close to government.

She took advice and followed it. I don't see anyone claiming she was poorly advised, or refused to follow the correct advice. The claims seem to be personal attacks when that isn’t the only option.

 

[Falcon1200]

It’s live by the sword, die by the sword. Rayner is often the first to call for other politicians to resign when accused of impropriety.

Absolutely; The issue is not so much whether Angela Rayner has done wrong, to whatever degree, but her utter hypocrisy; She has made strident criticism of the financial affairs of Tory politicians, and even the PM's wife, while her own situation is shrouded in secrecy.

 

[najaB]

She has made strident criticism of the financial affairs of Tory politicians, and even the PM's wife, while her own situation is shrouded in secrecy.

What do you think we should know that isn't out in public?

 

[nw1]

It is political manoeuvring at its best. She was the biggest threat to Kier Starmer's Leadership and personally, I think she would have been successful.

Sadly, like the rest of them, she has her nose in the trough. Whether or not she committed a crime or broke policy, rules, regulations or whatever. Morally, she without a doubt, crossed a line. She is no different to any of them and used the system to her own personal gain. Insiders knew what she did and have positioned her back against the wall and sullied any hope of her ousting Kier.

The closer we get to an election, the sharper the knives get.

I doubt anyone will threaten Keir Starmer's leadership any time soon though.

Why would they? Starmer is presumably still odds-on to win the election, even after this incident, so it would just be counter-productive for Labour.

Any threat to Starmer's leadership will not, presumably, occur until the 2029 parliament if it does happen. I suspect in the coming 5 years people will cut him a lot of slack even if he doesn't give people exactly what they want, because his main job in the first parliament will be to fix the Tory mess that has occurred since 2019.

What do you think we should know that isn't out in public?

The key thing is that we currently lack hard evidence that she has done anything wrong. We just have allegations made by various right-wing sources.

 

[Gloster]

I doubt anyone will threaten Keir Starmer's leadership any time soon though.

Why would they? Starmer is presumably still odds-on to win the election, even after this incident, so it would just be counter-productive for Labour.

Any threat to Starmer's leadership will not, presumably, occur until the 2029 parliament if it does happen. I suspect in the coming 5 years people will cut him a lot of slack even if he doesn't give people exactly what they want, because his main job in the first parliament will be to fix the Tory mess that has occurred since 2019.

Oh, come on, it’s the Labour Party. It has an inherent death-wish that means that just as it looks to have a chance of getting somewhere it starts tearing itself apart (see Life of Brian). The only thing that occasionally saves it is the incredible incompetence/arrogance/greed of the Conservatives, which is there at the moment in unprecedented amounts, but don’t underestimate Labour’s ability to rise to the occasion.

 

[nw1]

Oh, come on, it’s the Labour Party. It has an inherent death-wish that means that just as it looks to have a chance of getting somewhere it starts tearing itself apart (see Life of Brian). The only thing that occasionally saves it is the incredible incompetence/arrogance/greed of the Conservatives, which is there at the moment in unprecedented amounts, but don’t underestimate Labour’s ability to rise to the occasion.

Maybe but I find that most of these internal quarrels take place relatively shortly after defeat (cf. 1983 or 2015).

When they are in a strong position (1997 above all, now to a lesser extent) they seem to be much more unified.

 

[Thirteen]

It's massive hyperbole to suggest the Tories will the GE if Rayner resigns.

 

[BrianW]

I do agree that she should resign if she did break the law, even if unintentionally.

But the concept of these sanctimonious and far from blameless people such as Daly and Shapps moralising over it really winds me up. It just makes you think of the biblical passage about "the plank in your own eye".

Assuming she does have to resign, what effect do people think this will have on the GE? Does it raise the spectre of a Tory win?

I believe that the person who has pressed for the police to investigate is the MP for North West Durham, Richard Holden, who also happens to be the Chairman of the Conservative Party and the person who pushed the Durham police to reopen the ‘Beergate’ enquiry, which for the record, found nothing. But I am sure that Holden’s aim is nothing more than to ensure that MPs are seen to have the highest standards.

IIUC, both James Daly MP and Richard Holden MP represent 'Red Wall' seats, won from Labour in 2019; Daly with the smallest majority of 105 and thus now the most marginal seat in England. Holden overcame a history of 19 Labour MPs for his constuency (Wikipedia entries). I guess they, and therefore Conservative Central Office, think an onslaught on Angela Rayner will win, or retain, them votes and thus ensure 'five more years' ... I'm not sure what 'external interests they have, and to which they may return.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Tory mess that has occurred since 2019.

Arguably since 2010.

 

[Falcon1200]

What do you think we should know that isn't out in public?

The advice she has apparently received that she did nothing wrong, which (also apparently) not even Keir Starmer has seen; If what she says is correct what is the issue with it being out in the open?

We just have allegations made by various right-wing sources.

Just as she made allegations against various Tories (not alone in Labour there of course, as per Tom Watson for example) and moreover, demanded that they step down, even before any wrongdoing had actually been proved!

 

[nw1]

IIUC, both James Daly MP and Richard Holden MP represent 'Red Wall' seats, won from Labour in 2019; Daly with the smallest majority of 105 and thus now the most marginal seat in England. Holden overcame a history of 19 Labour MPs for his constuency (Wikipedia entries). I guess they, and therefore Conservative Central Office, think an onslaught on Angela Rayner will win, or retain, them votes and thus ensure 'five more years' ... I'm not sure what 'external interests they have, and to which they may return.

It could backfire though; people might perceive it as a politically-motivated act by Daly (and Holden) - especially if Rayner is found not to have committed any offence.

A risky strategy and with such a slim majority, along with other controversial comments in the past and his membership of the right-wing New Conservatives, I suspect he'll be out. Doesn't sound like the sort of person who will appeal to the centre ground.

 

[najaB]

The advice she has apparently received that she did nothing wrong, which (also apparently) not even Keir Starmer has seen; If what she says is correct what is the issue with it being out in the open?

That, of course, assumes that it's available to be seen. The sale of the house occurred almost a decade ago so there's every chance that she disposed of it years ago.

 

[Ediswan]

That, of course, assumes that it's available to be seen. The sale of the house occurred almost a decade ago so there's every chance that she disposed of it years ago.

Do we even know if it was written or verbal advice ?

 

[JamesT]

That, of course, assumes that it's available to be seen. The sale of the house occurred almost a decade ago so there's every chance that she disposed of it years ago.

She’s said she’s happy to pass it over to HMRC and Starmer has said that people in the Labour Party have seen it.

 

[Busaholic]

Arguably since 2010.

Definitely since 2010.

 

[317 forever]

IIUC, both James Daly MP and Richard Holden MP represent 'Red Wall' seats, won from Labour in 2019; Daly with the smallest majority of 105 and thus now the most marginal seat in England. Holden overcame a history of 19 Labour MPs for his constuency (Wikipedia entries). I guess they, and therefore Conservative Central Office, think an onslaught on Angela Rayner will win, or retain, them votes and thus ensure 'five more years' ... I'm not sure what 'external interests they have, and to which they may return.

James Daly's constituency Bury North is less of a Red Wall seat than the small Tory majority would suggest. It was Labour in 1997-2010 and again 2015-17.

Bury Council is often Labour too.

 

[telstarbox]

I thought that was the definition of the Red Wall, that those were long standing Labour seats until 2019.

 

[gg1]

I thought that was the definition of the Red Wall, that those were long standing Labour seats until 2019.

...which rules out Bury North which is closer to being a bellwether seat than a red wall seat.

In the 10 general elections since the constituency was formed in 1983, it has been won by the winning party nationally on 9 occasions, 2017 being the sole exception.

To me a red wall seat is one which was solidly Labour throughout the Thatcher and Major years,

 

[nw1]

...which rules out Bury North which is closer to being a bellwether seat than a red wall seat.

In the 10 general elections since the constituency was formed in 1983, it has been won by the winning party nationally on 9 occasions, 2017 being the sole exception.

To me a red wall seat is one which was solidly Labour throughout the Thatcher and Major years,

This actually suggests Bury North was "less Tory than average" in 2019 as it was a minuscule Tory majority despite being a bellweather seat.

Suggest socially liberal tendencies, perhaps. Either way, I suspect Daly will be out on his ear.

 

[DarloRich]

This story with Angela Rayner seems to be beer gate Mkii. Confected by Tories and thier press quislings to deflect form the chaos of Tory Britain.

Funny how how they don't exert as much effort over Tory dodgy dealing. When Tories owe millions in tax it is "an honest mistake" when a common person owes, allegedly, £2.50 it is the worst crime ever. Odd that.

I also suspect if she has done anything wrong she will resign, unlike Tories.