Kensington (Olympia) post-HS2

[Tobberz]

Kensington Olympia is a station which fascinates me, because of the wildly different service patterns over the years.

I understand there used to be a large number of cross-country/InterCity services travelling through from the south to the Midlands & North, with arguably the only bare remnant being the hourly Southern service.

I heard somewhere that capacity on the WCML was one reason these were withdrawn - is it possible that with freed-up slots post-HS2, such services via Olympia could resume? It would surely be an immensely convenient station for a lot of Londoners, and would take pressure off the central termini. It would also have the benefit of allowing passengers from either side of London to transit through the city without having to change on to the tube.

Anyway, I could be rambling - if anyone knows more about Olympia's demise as an InterCity London Terminal, please direct me to some reading!

 

[The Planner]

Not sure it was a large number to be fair.

 

[sad1e]

Kensington Olympia is a station which fascinates me, because of the wildly different service patterns over the years.

I understand there used to be a large number of cross-country/InterCity services travelling through from the south to the Midlands & North, with arguably the only bare remnant being the hourly Southern service.

I heard somewhere that capacity on the WCML was one reason these were withdrawn - is it possible that with freed-up slots post-HS2, such services via Olympia could resume? It would surely be an immensely convenient station for a lot of Londoners, and would take pressure off the central termini. It would also have the benefit of allowing passengers from either side of London to transit through the city without having to change on to the tube.

Anyway, I could be rambling - if anyone knows more about Olympia's demise as an InterCity London Terminal, please direct me to some reading!

The main problem with trying to route intercity trains down through Olympia and along the WLL is pathing due to London overground's frequent service.

If I was to do one thing to Olympia it would be to reopen the Motorail terminal there. I think Motorail would have a lot higher demand now than it even did in the past. You could probably install electric car chargers on the Motorail car beds and cater to electric car owners looking to go long distances without the hassle of having to find electric car chargers which are quite sparse in non urban areas.

 

[Class15]

Olympia is an extremely interesting station. The number of bay platforms it used to have is staggering. However, I don’t think Intercity trains will come back due to complexity - I don’t think pathing is a massive issue on the WLL but it would be slow around Willesden.

 

[zwk500]

I heard somewhere that capacity on the WCML was one reason these were withdrawn - is it possible that with freed-up slots post-HS2, such services via Olympia could resume? It would surely be an immensely convenient station for a lot of Londoners, and would take pressure off the central termini. It would also have the benefit of allowing passengers from either side of London to transit through the city without having to change on to the tube.

The WCML capacity was only 1 factor. Other major factors in the killing off of the IC cross-london services was the difficulty of getting paths on the Southern Network, especially on the Brighton Line, where any train to/from Kensington is committed to the Slow lines between at least Balham and Clapham Junction. It was also just slow anyway, and as routes entirely avoiding London have picked up speed and frequencies have generally increased the attraction of individual daily direct trains declined pretty quickly.

If you want to go from Brighton to Manchester, for example, you now have 4 Thameslink trains per hour to St Pancras, from where a short walk to Euston gives you 3tph to Manchester. Much of the time gained by not needing interchanges is lost on the slow lines and low linespeed from Balham to Wembley North.

 

[SynthD]

There may be a Mildmay station at Old Oak Common, but if not, there is little burden in going to a zone 1 terminus with many long distance trains. The freight and Mildmay are more important, and should have room to grow.

Motorail won’t come back either, not least because cars are wider and there is a full motorway (plus motorway standard A roads) network.

 

[cle]

This site is a lot of fun (depending on who you are!) for this topic: http://www.1s76.com/1S76 1987.htm

 

[popeter45]

was thinking about Olympia the other day and what could be done as it is a massive station for its current needs.
if OHLE was brough in to make it the power change point and a rebuild of the WCML junction you could so a lot of practical stuff that is not intercity
adding in a central island and a few crossing points to make what could function as bay platforms you could split the existing Southern Service there between Southern and West Midlands to boost service frequency and remove the need for Southerns sub fleet of dual voltage EMU’s.
focus on making it an easy commuter interchange rather than focusing on intercity.

Sketched up a quick diagram of what it could look like

Spoiler: Track Layout

Overground would use Platforms 1A and 4B normally, West Midlands would normally use Platform 3A but could also use 2A, Southern would use 2B normally but also could use 3B, this would allow Freight to pass the station by crossing from 1B to 2A and 4A to 3B in the event all normally used platforms are in use
1B could also be used by the Underground during busy events at Olympia and serve as a NR/LU boarder for Engineering access

this is all kind of maximalist and could also be done using the existing 2 platforms if freight passing isn’t an issue and no plans to need more than 1 Terminating train from each direction at a time

 

[zwk500]

was thinking about Olympia the other day and what could be done as it is a massive station for its current needs.
if OHLE was brough in to make it the power change point and a rebuild of the WCML junction you could so a lot of practical stuff that is not intercity
adding in a central island and a few crossing points to make what could function as bay platforms you could split the existing Southern Service there between Southern and West Midlands to boost service frequency and remove the need for Southerns sub fleet of dual voltage EMU’s.

My experience is that there is a significant amount of traffic originating (or at least joining) at Wembley Central heading for Clapham Junction and beyond, so I personally wouldn't look to split the service at Kensington.

focus on making it an easy commuter interchange rather than focusing on intercity.

Yes - sort of. Fundamentally, it's role as an interchange is largely a historic one now. West Brompton and Shepherd's Bush both provide much better connectivity to the Underground.

Sketched up a quick diagram of what it could look like

Overground would use Platforms 1A and 4B normally, West Midlands would normally use Platform 3A but could also use 2A, Southern would use 2B normally but also could use 3B,

this is all kind of maximalist and could also be done using the existing 2 platforms if freight passing isn’t an issue and no plans to need more than 1 Terminating train from each direction at a time. 1B could also be used by the Underground during busy events at Olympia and serve as a NR/LU boarder for Engineering access

leaving aside the buildability (or not) of this, I'd personally just simplify it. I'd drop the underground branch from passenger service and reduce it to a depot access line, no connection to NR needed (except maybe a transfer line). West Brompton fulfills the District line interchange role better given it actually has a regular service. Earl's Court has closed and the Olympia centre is a convention centre which doesn't place the same stress load as concerts or sporting events, and with a 4tph 5-Car service on the Mildmay line as standard the regular capacity is pretty strong anyway.

I'd reinstate the other through line at Kensington and extend both to provide 775m standage for freight.

Then, I'd extend the wires all the way to Clapham Jn platforms 1/2 and 16/17, so there'd be a short section of dual voltage in 16/17 to the turnback siding, and through 1/2 for the South London/Windrush Line Overground services, but Mildmay Line services would not need to come off the wires at all. If any dual-voltage freight still runs and can't be easily replaced with a bi-mode or battery loco, then third rail might need to be left for a short stretch north of Latchmere Jns to allow the changeover on less taxing gradients.

I'd also look into whether it was viable to provide a bay platform at Wembley so that additional Wembley-Clapham shuttles can be run if required for engineering works or events, or that the Southern Service could be turned round without hitting the WCML slows if there was serious delays on either side of the WLL.

this would allow Freight to pass the station by crossing from 1B to 2A and 4A to 3B in the event all normally used platforms are in use

Mid-platform crossovers are a nightmare for gauging, especially if step-free access is required (which Overground would be very strongly defensive of, for good reason).

 

[Class15]

leaving aside the buildability (or not) of this, I'd personally just simplify it. I'd drop the underground branch from passenger service and reduce it to a depot access line, no connection to NR needed (except maybe a transfer line). West Brompton fulfills the District line interchange role better given it actually has a regular service. Earl's Court has closed and the Olympia centre is a convention centre which doesn't place the same stress load as concerts or sporting events, and with a 4tph 5-Car service on the Mildmay line as standard the regular capacity is pretty strong anyway.

I used the district line to Olympia the other week - I was rather interested by it. It would be a shame if it disappeared.

I'd reinstate the other through line at Kensington and extend both to provide 775m standage for freight.

Are any freights through Olympia actually that long? There isn’t any regular container traffic.

 

[zwk500]

I used the district line to Olympia the other week - I was rather interested by it. It would be a shame if it disappeared.

Sadly, there are many interesting quirks that fade out of relevance as travel patterns change. A bit like the services mentioned in the OP. It served a purpose once, but IMO given the other options for accessing the area by London underground I just don't see any need to spend any significant effort retaining the service. If it survives because it's just not in the way then fine, I'm not against it per se. But I wouldn't retain it if that meant the mainline had headaches for it's purposes.

Are any freights through Olympia actually that long? There isn’t any regular container traffic.

Probably not, but it's part of the strategic corridor from Wembley Yard to the Channel Tunnel and it'd be good to make sure longer freights have the option to recess between Mitre bridge Jn and Longhedge Jns. Railfreight in the UK is badly hampered by the problem of bottleneck A being left unresolved because it'd just result in problems at Bottleneck B. If you have the opportunity to give standage the longest strategic freights, it would be somewhat remiss not to, and if following my plan you'd be rebuilding bridges at either end of the station for OLE anyway.

 

[cle]

I think a bay at Wembley p5/6 would be very difficult. I do wish that station was built differently.

There is a lot more demand than there was, as the area has been developed a lot.

 

[anthony263]

Hasn't there been proposals to extend the wires from just north of shepherd's bush down to olympia for switchover from dc too overhead could be done on the flat rather than an incline

 

[sad1e]

Thinking about Euston being closed during its rebuild. During that time why don't they run some services down through Kensington Olympia to somewhere down south. Maybe Brighton just to keep some wcml service during that time.

 

[The Planner]

Thinking about Euston being closed during its rebuild. During that time why don't they run some services down through Kensington Olympia to somewhere down south. Maybe Brighton just to keep some wcml service during that time.

Why Brighton? Euston will rarely be closed completely for any significant amount of time.

 

[sad1e]

Why Brighton? Euston will rarely be closed completely for any significant amount of time.

Brighton is just the first station I could think of down that way. Really any station with a significant amount of terminating platforms could be used

 

[JonathanH]

Brighton is just the first station I could think of down that way. Really any station with a significant amount of terminating platforms could be used

Overhead wires might help. Realistically, services would just terminate at Watford Junction or Milton Keynes as they do at present when Euston is closed.

 

[Class15]

Why Brighton? Euston will rarely be closed completely for any significant amount of time.

Maybe via Primrose Hill to Liverpool Street? I mean this is really crayons but this is the speculative forum after all!

Overhead wires might help. Realistically, services would just terminate at Watford Junction or Milton Keynes

Perhaps Harrow & Wealdstone?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Thinking about Euston being closed during its rebuild. During that time why don't they run some services down through Kensington Olympia to somewhere down south. Maybe Brighton just to keep some wcml service during that time.

When Euston was rebuilt in the 60s services were diverted to Kensington.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand there used to be a large number of cross-country/InterCity services travelling through from the south to the Midlands & North

A handful a day, and that was when the line had a token local passenger service. Very, very different now.

I heard somewhere that capacity on the WCML was one reason these were withdrawn - is it possible that with freed-up slots post-HS2, such services via Olympia could resume?

Very few services went to the WCML from Mitre Bridge. Certainly from the 90s until withdrawal, the (few) Cross Country service via Kenny O were routed to the GWML towards Reading, then Oxford to Birmingham.

Two main reasons they were withdrawn
1) the services were not that popular, but cost a lot to operate (maintaining some complex crew knowledge, including diversions, and stabling / maintenance for a handful of trains a day is expensive)

2) lack of capacity for occasional, off pattern, services on the Brighton Line and Chatham Main Line. For example taking them off the Brighton line enabled a higher frequency all day for London - Brighton services. And that’s what the market wants.

It would surely be an immensely convenient station for a lot of Londoners, and would take pressure off the central termini

That’s the point of OOC station, a couple of miles up the road.

If I was to do one thing to Olympia it would be to reopen the Motorail terminal there. I think Motorail would have a lot higher demand now than it even did in the past. You could probably install electric car chargers on the Motorail car beds and cater to electric car owners looking to go long distances without the hassle of having to find electric car chargers which are quite sparse in non urban areas.

Have a search around the forum for previous threads on the subject, that will explain why Motorail is not coming back. Not least the fares - a return to Scotland would be the best part of £1000 (assuming the fares under BR increased by inflation) and take longer than the M40/M6.

Hasn't there been proposals to extend the wires from just north of shepherd's bush down to olympia for switchover from dc too overhead could be done on the flat rather than an incline

Never seriously.

Thinking about Euston being closed during its rebuild

It won’t be closed that much. Kenny O was looked at for diversions during the 2000 rebuild, but very quickly dismissed, and that was before the Overground really got going.

Maybe via Primrose Hill to Liverpool Street? I mean this is really crayons but this is the speculative forum after all!

No capacity on the NLL, so existing trains would have to come out to facilitate. Also the journey would be very slow! Perhaps a link into St Pancras, where you could turn the trains back in a couple of minutes and have 8tph off one platform

When Euston was rebuilt in the 60s services were diverted to Kensington.

A few were. Some were diverted to St Pancras, some others to Paddington, and some still ran to Euston. But there were many, many fewer services back then.

 

[Class15]

No capacity on the NLL, so existing trains would have to come out to facilitate. Also the journey would be very slow! Perhaps a link into St Pancras, where you could turn the trains back in a couple of minutes and have 8tph off one platform

I’m pleased you’ve finally understood Mr Jefkins’ genius

 

[popeter45]

Then, I'd extend the wires all the way to Clapham Jn platforms 1/2 and 16/17, so there'd be a short section of dual voltage in 16/17 to the turnback siding, and through 1/2 for the South London/Windrush Line Overground services, but Mildmay Line services would not need to come off the wires at all. If any dual-voltage freight still runs and can't be easily replaced with a bi-mode or battery loco, then third rail might need to be left for a short stretch north of Latchmere Jns to allow the changeover on less taxing gradients.

yea that sounds like a better idea Honestly, also if moved to West Midlands and extended to Milton keynes again to align with East west Rail potentially

 

[cle]

EWR has taken its (the Southern's) platform ultimately - and the path between Bletchley and MKC.

 

[MarkyT]

Mid-platform crossovers are a nightmare for gauging, especially if step-free access is required (which Overground would be very strongly defensive of, for good reason).

Moving gap filler steps can reach out over otherwise unacceptable horizontal gaps that might be needed for end-throw reasons in a mid-platform turnout scenario. Those on the new Irish Rail trains automatically adjust to meet a platform up to a ~300mm away. Probably good for gaps due to curvature as well.

 

[zwk500]

Moving gap filler steps can reach out over otherwise unacceptable horizontal gaps that might be needed for end-throw reasons in a mid-platform turnout scenario. Those on the new Irish Rail trains automatically adjust to meet a platform up to a ~300mm away. Probably good for gaps due to curvature as well.

They can, but such things are not currently fitted to any Overground stock which is relatively new. Mid-platform crossovers would also have an impact on the available lengths for the subdivisions to remain clear of the fouling point, and the speed restriction for freight to weave across.

None of this is impossible to solve, but it all feeds into the question 'is it worth it'. Terminating everything at Kensington would represent a significant connectivity downgrade, and the amount of events at the Olympia centre that would justify needing crowd-buster trains for peak flows must be quite low as it's a convention centre rather than a concert/sporting event arena. In this context, spending lots of money to allow freight to weave around operationally awkward trains when a much simpler option to provide a regulating point for both directions on a through passenger route doesn't seem to represent massively good value.

 

[Mark J]

A return of the Reading to Brighton, via Kensington Olympia service would be most welcome.

 

[zwk500]

A return of the Reading to Brighton, via Kensington Olympia service would be most welcome.

If you're travelling betwen Streatham and Hanwell, maybe. But I suspect it won't get much traffic diverting away from the interchange at Farringdon given the journey times.

 

[MarkyT]

A return of the Reading to Brighton, via Kensington Olympia service would be most welcome.

I liked that when it stopped at Clapham Junction. Useful for many parts of South London, and the Brighton line. Quicker than going via Staines if one of the few trains was at a convenient time. Intercity withdrew stops there in later years due to concerns about the platform interface. It was a massive gap!

 

[Mark J]

A return of the Reading to Brighton, via Kensington Olympia service would be most welcome.

This was a tounge in cheek comment, as fully aware the connection has been lost at North Pole, that used to facilitate this service.

However, I do consider the discontinued service a loss overall. Not everyone who goes to London wants to end up in Paddington.

Nowadays, to get to Kensington Olympia and Clapham Junction requires the use of the slow SWR service from the Reading direction. Obviously changing to Southern/London Overground at Clapham Junction to get to Kensington Olympia.

 

[Zomboid]

Olympia itself isn't all that far from High Street Ken, which is easy to get to from Paddington, or Hammersmith on the other side.