Key smartcard split ticketing

[matt_g_uk]

Hi, I'm in an unusual situation and curious about whether this will work.

I have 2 annual season tickets loaded onto the same Key smartcard.

1. Huntingdon to London Terminals season ticket
2. St Pancras International -> London zones 1+2 travelcard

The journey I plan to make regularly (in both directions) is:

• Thameslink Huntingdon through to Farringdon - note I do not want to leave the train at St Pancras to touch out and in again, since I would end up on a later train.
• Farringdon to TCR via Elizabeth Line

I feel like this ought to be allowed but I bet it's very unusual to have 2 smartcard season tickets on the same card like this.

So:

• Is this allowed? St Pancras is the point where I move from one ticket to the next, every Thameslink train stops at St Pancras. So with a paper ticket this journey would be fine, but I will not be touching out/in at St Pancras. Is there a strict requirement to always touch in/out when using a smartcard? And is this requirement "per ticket" or "per journey"?
• In practice will it work on the barriers at both ends of my journey?
• Can ticket inspectors see both tickets when a card is scanned for inspection?

I don't have KeyGo enabled.

Thanks in advance!

P.s. the reason this has happened is that my commute used to end at St Pancras/Kings Cross; the travelcard is effectively an add-on.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I've had two point to point season tickets which overlapped on a key card. They worked without any problems. Have you tried it yet?

 

[matt_g_uk]

Thanks - not yet, the Travelcard starts next week.

 

[Alex365Dash]

the reason this has happened is that my commute used to end at St Pancras/Kings Cross; the travelcard is effectively an add-on.

If you’re doing this regularly now, it may be worth heading to your local ticket office and getting a changeover on your season to Huntingdon - London Zones 1-6 as an outboundary Travelcard season. It’s cheaper for more validity!

Otherwise, yes, this is permitted. It should work the barriers at both ends, and both tickets are visible to ticket inspectors.

 

[Watershed]

If you’re doing this regularly now, it may be worth heading to your local ticket office and getting a changeover on your season to Huntingdon - London Zones 1-6 as an outboundary Travelcard season. It’s cheaper for more validity!

It would actually be cheaper to just change the Huntingdon - London Terminals season to a Huntingdon - Finsbury Park one and then use that in combination with the Zones 1-2 Travelcard.

 

[Haywain]

There is no problem with having two season tickets on one smart card, unless they are flexi-seasons when there can be issues about which might be activated.

it may be worth heading to your local ticket office and getting a changeover on your season to Huntingdon - London Zones 1-6 as an outboundary Travelcard season. It’s cheaper for more validity!

As only one of the seasons could be changed, the other would need to be refunded and this can be a little punitive and wipe out some of the savings. However...

It would actually be cheaper to just change the Huntingdon - London Terminals season to a Huntingdon - Finsbury Park one and then use that in combination with the Zones 1-2 Travelcard.

... this is a much better suggestion.

 

[matt_g_uk]

Ah nice idea. The Travelcard is labelled as ‘St Pancras to zones 1/2’ - I hope that doesn’t require that journeys start at St Pancras?

 

[Alex365Dash]

Ah nice idea. The Travelcard is labelled as ‘St Pancras to zones 1/2’ - I hope that doesn’t require that journeys start at St Pancras?

Nope - it covers all of London Zones 1-2 which includes Finsbury Park, and you can start using the Travelcard from any point in Zones 1-2. (edit: Or TfL buses regardless of location!) Plus because they’re both seasons (and the latter is a Travelcard), your train doesn’t even need to stop at Finsbury Park! (Although I think all TL services do anyway?)

 

[Joe Paxton]

Nope - it covers all of London Zones 1-2 which includes Finsbury Park, and you can start using the Travelcard from any point in Zones 1-2. [...]

Or any London Bus (i.e. a route operated for TfL) regardless of where you board it in Greater London or beyond (some TfL routes stretch across the boundary).

 

[matt_g_uk]

Thanks for the suggestion to book to Finsbury Park, that will save me a chunk of money. Even for next year, at current prices it's actually cheaper to buy:

1. Huntingdon to Finsbury Park £5724 annual
2. St Pancras to travelcard zones 1+2 £1628 annual
   • £7352 total

vs

• Huntingdon to travel card zones 1-6 £7928

and I only very infrequently travel within London beyond zone 2, and will continue to use Oyster when I do.

Could I just double check:

• it seems like a changeover is supposed to use historic prices at the time of original purchase, is there a way to find those prices? Specifically what is the cost of Huntingdon to Finsbury Park at last year's prices? Ideally if there was something I could print out to show the station staff.
• What is the rule that allows me to use the Finsbury Park ticket even if the train doesn't stop at Finsbury Park? All Thameslink trains do, but there is an occasional Huntingdon->Kings Cross Great Northern train, and ideally I would take that sometimes.

Cheers

 

[Watershed]

and I only very infrequently travel within London beyond zone 2, and will continue to use Oyster when I do.

You could even load your Zones 1-2 Travelcard onto Oyster, so that when you travel beyond Zone 2 you can use Oyster by simply touching in. You'd only be charged the 'extension' fare beyond Zone 2.

it seems like a changeover is supposed to use historic prices at the time of original purchase, is there a way to find those prices? Specifically what is the cost of Huntingdon to Finsbury Park at last year's prices? Ideally if there was something I could print out to show the station staff.

You can see historic fares here. A weekly Huntingdon to Finsbury Park was £135.10 under last year's prices, so an annual would have been 40× that at £5404. You'll receive a pro-rata refund of the difference between what you paid and that.

Station staff should be able to calculate this all for you, but that should give you an idea. There's no admin fee applicable to changeovers.

What is the rule that allows me to use the Finsbury Park ticket even if the train doesn't stop at Finsbury Park? All Thameslink trains do, but there is an occasional Huntingdon->Kings Cross Great Northern train, and ideally I would take that sometimes.

Condition 14.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

Unless Condition 14.1 applies, if you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger, or rover, in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to
Call at that station for your combination to be valid.

 

[matt_g_uk]

Thanks!

You could even load your Zones 1-2 Travelcard onto Oyster, so that when you travel beyond Zone 2 you can use Oyster by simply touching in. You'd only be charged the 'extension' fare beyond Zone 2.

This sounds great but could you elaborate on how I could load the travel card onto oyster? I think I need a travel card which is not just on Oyster, since I am using the travel card as an extension to my journey and cannot tap in at the start of the journey. Is it possible to have the same travel card on oyster and non-oyster? Or am I wrong to think that Oyster always requires a tap-in/tap-out?

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Or am I wrong to think that Oyster always requires a tap-in/tap-out?

You don't need to tap in/out if you have a Travelcard on there and - importantly - you don't need to go outside the Travelcard's zones on that journey (you can ignore the other ticket). In your case, as far as the Oyster card is concerned you're using it within zones 1 and 2 so no validation is necessary

 

[Watershed]

Thanks!



This sounds great but could you elaborate on how I could load the travel card onto oyster? I think I need a travel card which is not just on Oyster, since I am using the travel card as an extension to my journey and cannot tap in at the start of the journey. Is it possible to have the same travel card on oyster and non-oyster? Or am I wrong to think that Oyster always requires a tap-in/tap-out?

You can only hold a Travelcard in one medium at once, and it's not possible to change the medium a Travelcard is issued in after it's been bought.

So the only way to change your Travelcard to Oyster now would be to get a refund on your Travelcard and buy it again, which is obviously disadvantageous due to the price rise that's happened since, not to mention the fact that refunds aren't calculated pro-rata and attract a fee.

It's not necessary to touch in or out a Travelcard held on Oyster if you're travelling entirely within the covered Zones. It's only if you intend to use Oyster to pay for a journey beyond the covered Zones that you have to touch in and out in the usual way.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You can only hold a Travelcard in one medium at once, and it's not possible to change the medium a Travelcard is issued in after it's been bought.

For CCST to Oyster thats correct but please don't make general staements that aren't correct as people may be confused with regards transferring a CCST Travelcard to a Smartcard

 

[Alex365Dash]

For CCST to Oyster thats correct but please don't make general staements that aren't correct as people may be confused with regards transferring a CCST Travelcard to a Smartcard

That’s true - I assume CCST (Credit Card Sized Ticket) to Oyster can’t be done nowadays because there’s no National Rail ticket offices that can also handle Oyster transactions, or could it still not be done back when Cubic FasTIS+ was actually still in use?

 

[Wallsendmag]

That’s true - I assume CCST to Oyster can’t be done nowadays because there’s no National Rail ticket offices that can also handle Oyster transactions, or could it still not be done back when Cubic FasTIS+ was actually still in use?

Sorry we never had any dealings with Oyster

 

[Alex365Dash]

Sorry we never had any dealings with Oyster

No worries, was a question for the floor!

 

[[.n]]

For CCST to Oyster thats correct but please don't make general staements that aren't correct as people may be confused with regards transferring a CCST Travelcard to a Smartcard

Love the fact about this comment being about not causing confusion and then using the slightly non-intuitive acronym CCST
took me several reads to work out what I think it meant (the comment) - not CCST - "smart" cards are so confusing as well


Aside : This is also why when I do a very similar things, I prefer to have 2 paper season tickets and just show/use the one appropriate to the part of the journey I'm on.

 

[matt_g_uk]

Yesterday I attempted to do the season ticket changeover (switch Huntingdon->London Terminals to Huntingdon->Finsbury Park for a partial refund). Unsurprisingly, it was a nightmare; I spent well over an hour in the Thameslink ticket office at St.Pancras (split between morning and evening) and wasn't successful. The staff were certainly trying hard, but their system didn't do what they wanted - finally they escalated by email and promised I would hear back today.. no contact yet, and either way I'll try again tomorrow.

At their suggestion I also tried calling customer service for help; but that was an outsourced call centre who didn't know anything.

 

[MrJeeves]

From my experience, staff need to first move the smartcard ticket to paper, perform the changeover, then "reload" the paper season onto the smartcard.

The last step isn't possible for any form of discounted season ticket even if the ticket could be loaded directly onto the Key at purchase time. I ran into this converting my Wivelsfield to Brighton 16-17 season into a Burgess Hill to Lewes one for extra validity a few years ago, ending up with a paper changeover instead of it on my Key.