keyGo terms update

[Capvermell]

Interestingly, the terms also still state you have until the next Wednesday to update it online. I wonder if you do it outside 48h you will be charged the penalty, then refunded?

I suppose you can either risk continuing to use Key Go at full fare and find out the hard way if you forget to tap and then correct the missing tap in time or use Uber Travel to get 10% Uber Cash back that can be used against either future train tickets or Uber taxi rides. Ticket options for Uber Travel are paper tickets dispensed from the TVMs or e-tickets that I presume only need to be used when you meet a closed ticket barrier or encounter a guard, train supervisor or revenue inspector but do not have to be tapped out at stations without barriers (but still equipped with Key Go CUBIC reader tapping points) or at barriers that are open when you pass through them (I think but not sure on that one but I know you don't have to do anything with a paper ticket at an open barrier).

 

[jon0844]

E-ticket readers are supposedly going in at smaller stations without gatelines and I can imagine there being a move to requiring people to scan in and out at all stations, even unmanned ones. How this will be enforced I don't know, but they wouldn't be rolling them out if it was merely optional to scan them.

 

[Haywain]

E-ticket readers are supposedly going in at smaller stations without gatelines

eTicket readers? Are you sure?

 

[jon0844]

eTicket readers? Are you sure?

Apparently so. Not sure what they're going to look like.

 

[Haywain]

Apparently so. Not sure what they're going to look like.

In which case I might ask what the relevance is to this thread, which is about KeyGo - a smartcard product.

 

[Benjwri]

E-ticket readers are supposedly going in at smaller stations without gatelines and I can imagine there being a move to requiring people to scan in and out at all stations, even unmanned ones. How this will be enforced I don't know, but they wouldn't be rolling them out if it was merely optional to scan them.

Entirely unenforceable unless every station in the UK had a scanner. Otherwise do you expect people to go on the hunt around a station in the chance there is one, and if they don't find it they just get a PF? Would require a change of the NRCoT, and what about split tickets?

 

[jon0844]

In which case I might ask what the relevance is to this thread, which is about KeyGo - a smartcard product.

Because they were mentioned in the post above my reply. And the relevance is that if people don't scan their e-ticket at the start and end of their journey, it's possible in the future that similar terms will apply - namely a penalty of some sort.

Entirely unenforceable unless every station in the UK had a scanner. Otherwise do you expect people to go on the hunt around a station in the chance there is one, and if they don't find it they just get a PF? Would require a change of the NRCoT, and what about split tickets?

Currently, I don't think you can get an e-ticket to a station without the facilities - although there might be exceptions for smaller stations in-between larger stations with the facilities, so filling in the gaps could allow the change of rules. Not sure about split tickets, but wouldn't splitting an e-ticket have the same issue if the station you split at didn't have the facilities?

Now I agree this part of the discussion is off-topic.

 

[Benjwri]

Now I agree this part of the discussion is off-topic.

Won't reply to the rest as you're right it is off topic.

Currently, I don't think you can get an e-ticket to a station without the facilities

E-Ticket enablement is up to the individual TOC, but this definitely isn't a national rule. For example as far as I am aware almost every station in the south west has E-Tickets enabled, with the only exception being those which have gates but no e-ticket scanners (I believe this is just TfL managed stations now). Ungated stations all have e ticket enablement here.

 

[MrJeeves]

I suppose you can either risk continuing to use Key Go at full fare and find out the hard way if you forget to tap and then correct the missing tap in time or use Uber Travel to get 10% Uber Cash back that can be used against either future train tickets or Uber taxi rides. Ticket options for Uber Travel are paper tickets dispensed from the TVMs or e-tickets that I presume only need to be used when you meet a closed ticket barrier or encounter a guard, train supervisor or revenue inspector but do not have to be tapped out at stations without barriers (but still equipped with Key Go CUBIC reader tapping points) or at barriers that are open when you pass through them (I think but not sure on that one but I know you don't have to do anything with a paper ticket at an open barrier).

Yeah, I could choose to use a system that will automatically calculate the cheapest fare which allows me to account for unexpected changes of plan automatically without giving it a second thought, or use yet another generic ticketing retailer. Not sure I would really compare the two anyway -- keyGo is often the best choice for journeys solely within the keyGo area, unless a split ticket would be cheaper as it doesn't do these by default (though I believe it will if you touched in and out at each split point to "prompt" it into doing so).

I think I'd stick to GTR themselves if I was buying "proper" tickets anyway due to their generous unused ticket refund policy...

 

[Capvermell]

Yeah, I could choose to use a system that will automatically calculate the cheapest fare which allows me to account for unexpected changes of plan automatically without giving it a second thought, or use yet another generic ticketing retailer.

Do any of these other generic ticketing retailers apart from Uber give you 10% cashback on the cost of your rail ticket against future rail or taxi journeys booked with that generic ticketing retailer? Certainly Southern doesn't even though it used to give a 10% discount for buying tickets on its website quite some years ago.

Also Uber Travel can give you real paper tickets out of the same Southern ticket machine as if you had purchased direct from Southern itself and offers a full money back guarantee on any unused rail tickets.

Not sure I would really compare the two anyway -- keyGo is often the best choice for journeys solely within the keyGo area, unless a split ticket would be cheaper as it doesn't do these by default (though I believe it will if you touched in and out at each split point to "prompt" it into doing so).

I think I'd stick to GTR themselves if I was buying "proper" tickets anyway due to their generous unused ticket refund policy...

Key Go is so flexible isn't it in making you get off at a station in order to tap out and in and have to wait an hour for the next train to arrive when with a paper ticket or two I could have just ridden through the stop and not had to get off and wait an hour for the next train.

Real world example is I travelled from Ockley to Holmwood to join a walking group from London using Key Go as there was some talk I could drop out of the walk in Ockley if I found the 9 miles too much. So anyway I completed the full 9 mile circular route back to Holmwood after all whereupon the walking group leader unexpectedly announced they were going to The Lincoln Arms in Dorking for a meal and a drink.

So now I had a choice between tapping in from Holmwood to Dorking and then Dorking to Ockley after the meal and paying three expensive short hop single fares or tapping in from Holmwood and out at Dorking and then in at Dorking and out at Holmwood and waiting an hour for the next train triggering only two cheaper return fares. Except I couldn't do that as the last train south from Dorking to Ockley is at 6.41pm on Saturday and we would only have got to the pub at 5.40pm or so. Hence getting off the train at Holmwood to tap out and in would have made me miss the last train of the day to Ockley. But a single paper ticket from Holmwood to Dorking and another single paper ticket from Dorking to Ockley would let me stay on the last train at Holmwood. But anyway too much faff and/or extra cost thanks to Key Go ticketing so I didn't bother going for the drink and the meal in Dorking.

So until all train journeys consist of single fares that are half the price of the current cheapest return fare and/or short single station hops compared to two stops aren't penalised with premium fare levels per mile you are far worse off using Key Go if you have a change of travel plans such as the one outlined above..........

 

[MrJeeves]

So now I had a choice between tapping in from Holmwood to Dorking and then Dorking to Ockley after the meal and paying three expensive short hop single fares or tapping in from Holmwood and out at Dorking and then in at Dorking and out at Holmwood and waiting an hour for the next train triggering only two cheaper return fares

I don't understand...

If you tapped Ockley to Holmwood, then Holmwood to Dorking, then Dorking to Ockley, keyGo would charge you a return from Ockley to Dorking as this would be the cheapest ticket to cover all of your travel that day.

I'm not sure where you're getting three singles from. keyGo doesn't charge all of your taps as separate journeys. It looks at all your travel for a whole day and finds the cheapest combination of tickets to cover it all.

What you're describing is A-B, B-C then C-A, which would be covered by an A-C return.

 

[Capvermell]

I'm not sure where you're getting three singles from. keyGo doesn't charge all of your taps as separate journeys. It looks at all your travel for a whole day and finds the cheapest combination of tickets to cover it all.

What you're describing is A-B, B-C then C-A, which would be covered by an A-C return.

If that's how Key Go actually works then that's clearly much better than I had imagined.

I would have assumed that given that after I tapped out at Holmwood I didn't then tap in again for over 6 hours that the journey when I tapped in again heading northwards would be treated as being a further single journey from Holmwood to Dorking. Of course I do understand that if I had tapped back from Holmwood to Ockley after 6 hours then it would be treated as being an Off Peak Return with a Senior Railcard by Key Go.

Where exactly does Southern explain in a written document how exactly Key Go is supposed to handle these various different possible ticketing scenarios?

The fact that Key Go can't cover travel on the London Underground, even though you can buy and load a Travelcard on to the Key as a non Key Go transaction, and doesn't cover a whole bunch of stations served by Southern or GTR trains that are not run by Southern (even though Wimbledon for instance is covered but is a South Western run station) had not led me to believe that its customer centric lowest cost ticketing abilities were so far that advanced........

 

[Capvermell]

The video at www.southernrailway.com/tickets/the-key-smartcard/keygo seems more than a little vague on how Key Go actually calculates the "best fares available" and would seem to still be perfectly entitled to have charged my putative journeys from Ockley to Holmwood, then Holmwood to Dorking and Dorking to Ockley as three singles rather than a return from Ockley to Dorking with a break of journey of several hours at Holmwood.

At www.southernrailway.com/tickets/the-key-smartcard they also only say "Pay-As-You-Go and get the best fares when you tap in and out with the Smartcard and keyGo. You can also add a Railcard to your keyGo account" but don't provide any further detail beyond that..........

 

[E759]

My experience of KeyGo is that it doesn't always determine the correct/cheapest ticket. With that in mind, one needs to accept that at the end of the day one needs to work out the cheapest ticket oneself and if the ticket applied by GTR is wrong then raise a claim with GTR for a refund. Taking that into account, one should only tap in and out when entering or leaving a station and not in the middle of a journey.

 

[MrJeeves]

@E759 Out of curiosity, have you tried to get GTR to refund you the difference between keyGo and a cheaper split-ticketed journey before? I have wondered if they'd do this since keyGo is stated to find the cheapest combination of tickets, after all.

 

[Haywain]

@E759 Out of curiosity, have you tried to get GTR to refund you the difference between keyGo and a cheaper split-ticketed journey before? I have wondered if they'd do this since keyGo is stated to find the cheapest combination of tickets, after all.

If you want to split tickets to make a simple out and back journey with KeyGo you will need to get off the train and touch out and in at the split point to do so.

 

[MrJeeves]

Where exactly does Southern explain in a written document how exactly Key Go is supposed to handle these various different possible ticketing scenarios?

It's pretty clearly stated in a few places.

The keyGo FAQs say:

all your entry and exit taps across the network will be reviewed to calculate the best day fare for your journeys based upon the tickets you could have purchased that day, including any Railcard discounts if applicable.

as well as:

Can I break my journey using keyGo?
Yes.
At the end of the day, we review your entry and exit taps and apply the most appropriate fare for the journeys you made. For example, if you travelled from Brighton to Haywards Heath, then later in the day travelled to Gatwick Airport, you would be charged a Brighton to Gatwick Airport ticket.

and the Terms and Conditions state:

3.5 When making a rail Journey, you are permitted to break your Journey. Each Journey will be calculated as part of our “best day fare” offer, subject to there being no more than four hours thirty-six minutes (4hrs 36mins) elapsing between any “touch in” and a corresponding “touch out”. Each time you leave a station and touch out you will be deemed to have ended that particular Journey unless you re-enter the keyGo Network Area. When doing so, we will calculate the best fare for your entire Journey (from your first touch “in” on a day to your last touch out on a day) as explained above subject to there being no more than four hours thirty-six minutes (4hrs 36mins) elapsing between any “touch in” and a corresponding “touch out”, subject to your compliance with these Conditions

and:

"Best Day Fare"

The best day fare offer is based on tickets that can be bought on the day of travel. We will charge you the cheapest fare based upon the taps you have made on your Journey and the Journey length to best guess the route you took. Fares are based on paper equivalent tickets defined as Peak, Off-Peak Day and Super Off-Peak Day single and Day return routed ‘Any Permitted’, ‘Southern only’, ‘Thameslink only’ and Oyster fares for Journeys made wholly within the London zones 1-6. Where Journeys occur within the London zones 1-6, Journeys will be Price Matched with the equivalent Oyster zone day fare or Travelcard price for Journeys that begin or end outside the London area. When a Journey is made within the keyGo area, your bus and rail Journeys will be reviewed, and the best fare calculated on your behalf. For example, if travelling between Hove and Southwick and touched out at Fishersgate, touched back in at Fishersgate and continued your Journey to Southwick, you would be charged for a single between Hove and Southwick. If a bus tap was also registered, then the bus fare would be added to the single rail fare.

---

If you want to split tickets to make a simple out and back journey with KeyGo you will need to get off the train and touch out and in at the split point to do so.

I'm aware of the easiest option (I stated that one should do exactly this a few posts up), but my question still stands. Would they refund the difference as the split journey is the cheapest combination of tickets for the journey made?

 

[Capvermell]

@E759 Out of curiosity, have you tried to get GTR to refund you the difference between keyGo and a cheaper split-ticketed journey before? I have wondered if they'd do this since keyGo is stated to find the cheapest combination of tickets, after all.

Oh yes it is stated to do just that very thing of automatically finding you the cheapest combination of tickets but that then fails at the first hurdle by not also letting you tap your single journeys with TfL on the Underground, Overground or London Buses and selling you a Travelcard on TfL if that would be cheaper than the single journeys taken.

Yet you can load a Travelcard on to The Key itself but you just can't automatically buy one by tapping in and out at TfL stations and/or on TfL buses using Key Go.

It also doesn't earn you the 10% discount against further rail journeys that buying your rail tickets via Uber Travel offers.

No wonder then that Key Go does not state its calculation methodology for always charging passengers the lowest possible fare for their journeys that day tapped in and tapped out via Key Go.

 

[E759]

@E759 Out of curiosity, have you tried to get GTR to refund you the difference between keyGo and a cheaper split-ticketed journey before? I have wondered if they'd do this since keyGo is stated to find the cheapest combination of tickets, after all.

No, and I would never try that.

 

[Haywain]

Would they refund the difference as the split journey is the cheapest combination of tickets for the journey made?

No, this was covered previously in a thread a few months ago.

 

[Capvermell]

3.5 When making a rail Journey, you are permitted to break your Journey. Each Journey will be calculated as part of our “best day fare” offer, subject to there being no more than four hours thirty-six minutes (4hrs 36mins) elapsing between any “touch in” and a corresponding “touch out”. Each time you leave a station and touch out you will be deemed to have ended that particular Journey unless you re-enter the keyGo Network Area. When doing so, we will calculate the best fare for your entire Journey (from your first touch “in” on a day to your last touch out on a day) as explained above subject to there being no more than four hours thirty-six minutes (4hrs 36mins) elapsing between any “touch in” and a corresponding “touch out”, subject to your compliance with these Conditions

So in the example above my journey from Ockley to Holmwood had a break of more than 4 hours and 36 minutes at Holmwood and hence a further journey on to Dorking then back down to Ockley isn't covered it seems by the "best day fare" offer?

Presumably the 4 hour 36 minute break of journey rule doesn't apply to non broken return journeys such as Ockley to London Victoria in the morning and then London Victoria to Ockley in the afternoon on a Saturday late afternoon where I have been charged the correct return fare with railcard discount by Key Go.

 

[MrJeeves]

So in the example above my journey from Ockley to Holmwood had a break of more than 4 hours and 36 minutes at Holmwood and hence a further journey on to Dorking then back down to Ockley isn't covered it seems by the "best day fare" offer?

Presumably the 4 hour 36 minute break of journey rule doesn't apply to non broken return journeys such as Ockley to London Victoria in the morning and then London Victoria to Ockley in the afternoon on a Saturday late afternoon where I have been charged the correct return fare with railcard discount by Key Go.

The break between taps means from your tap in to subsequent tap out, not how much time between your individual journeys there are.

Provided you don't spent 4h 36m on the train between Ockley and Holmwood or Holmwood to Dorking, you won't have an issue.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

The only journey I did on key go where I returned to a different destination, I think I got charged the cheapest fare, but the start and end points are only one stop apart and most tickets are the same price. I did a early morning peak littlehaven -> earlswood, and then a mid afternoon earlswood -> horsham. I got charged for a anytime horsham - earlswood anytime return.

 

[Ediswan]

Provided you don't spent 4h 36m on the train between Ockley and Holmwood or Holmwood to Dorking, you won't have an issue.

4h 36m (276m) is a very specific limit. Does anybody know where it comes from ?

 

[paul1609]

4h 36m (276m) is a very specific limit. Does anybody know where it comes from ?

Believe it was the off peak journey in one timetable from Warblington to Foxton plus an hour.

 

[Capvermell]

Ultimately if Key Go could get me my rail fares as cheaply as the ones I can get with 10% off from Uber Travel (but I do have to pre buy my ticket before starting my journey or at least buy it on the way to the station) and didn't now have the threats of swingeing £50 penalties for forgetting to add missing taps (generally these occur entering or leaving unbarriered or barriers currently open stations plus there is also a double tap issue when ending journeys that results in a Seek Assistance message of unknown consequence but I note the double tap problem doesn't ever happen when commencing journeys on precisely the same Cubic Key card readers) I would go on using Key Go regularly. Also if it could cover all stations served by Southern trains and also automatically sell me a Travelcard if I tap on any TFL contactless points (if I set that as my desired option in my Key Go account) that would again more fully sell me the product.

But with all the many snags it has and the new £50 penalty for not correcting missing taps in 48 hours with only 3 tap corrections a month allowed I will only use it when running very late for the train and deciding to make that journey at the last moment so there is no time to pre buy tickets and get 10% cashback from Uber Travel.........

 

[MrJeeves]

generally these occur entering or leaving unbarriered or barriers currently open stations

These should (and do for me) still record taps provided you use the freestanding card readers or still tap your card on the barriers.

plus there is also a double tap issue when ending journeys that results in a Seek Assistance message of unknown consequence but I note the double tap problem doesn't ever happen when commencing journeys on precisely the same Cubic Key card readers

I've never had anything like this.

Also if it could cover all stations served by Southern trains and also automatically sell me a Travelcard if I tap on any TFL contactless points

I do agree that having keyGo as an option alongside Oyster/contactless would be incredible, but I understand TfL are very reluctant to allow this, and the funding wouldn't be there for it considering contactless is being expanded to swathes of the South East over the next two years.

I will still stand by keyGo and say it makes sense for me as I rarely travel outside the keyGo area and, if I do, it's probably to London, which I will buy a travelcard on my Key smartcard for anyway. I also use keyGo for my commute to work 4 days per week, since it's cheaper for me than buying a season ticket due to my 16-25 railcard.

 

[SAPhil]

These should (and do for me) still record taps provided you use the freestanding card readers or still tap your card on the barriers.


I've never had anything like this.

The only time I have had issues with taps is when the gates have been open. I tap on the barrier and check that the indicator has shown green but (as mentioned previously) whenever the journey has started before midnight and ended after it, I end up with an incomplete journey! In future, for trips where I think this is likely to happen, I will choose to get a paper ticket. KeyGo is still useful for a lot of journeys I make both for convenience and for getting railcard discounts that I wouldn't otherwise get but it's just another option to be used as and when it seems suitable.

 

[MrJeeves]

The only time I have had issues with taps is when the gates have been open. I tap on the barrier and check that the indicator has shown green but (as mentioned previously) whenever the journey has started before midnight and ended after it, I end up with an incomplete journey! In future, for trips where I think this is likely to happen, I will choose to get a paper ticket. KeyGo is still useful for a lot of journeys I make both for convenience and for getting railcard discounts that I wouldn't otherwise get but it's just another option to be used as and when it seems suitable.

Very strange! I often have Key journeys end after midnight — leaving London around 2340 and arriving back at almost 1am — but haven't had this happen before.

 

[Capvermell]

Very strange! I often have Key journeys end after midnight — leaving London around 2340 and arriving back at almost 1am — but haven't had this happen before.

The journeys arriving after midnight being charged as two singles problem was also affecting ticket price listings for Uber Travel rail ticket bookings on Super Off Peak Returns from Ockley but I see they have fixed it lately following my complaint on the issue but have yet to fix the issue of not being able to sell tickets to any London Overground station destinations.

So I think its just a case of some developers writing code wrongly assuming that the end of the rail ticket day occurs at midnight (the default normal end of day for any date based calculations on a computer) rather than at 0429 as it actually does.