Kirknewton Level Crossing Question.

[MrBurnz]

First off, apologies if this is in the wrong post category, I am posting this here because I have a question regarding Kirknewton level crossing.

Today, at 14:57pm, I was driving my lorry towards the level crossing, from the Kirknewton side.
As I approached the crossing, the barriers were up & the lights were not flashing, so I proceeded to go over the crossing as normal.

However, as I got onto the crossing, there was a train sitting at the station on the west bound (Glasgow) line. The train was stationary at the platform, with its lights on.
This is what caught my attention as I drove over the crossing (the illuminated headlights from the train)

Now, there was absolutely no red flashing warning lights for the crossing on & the barrier’s were up as if the crossing was clear.

I don’t know if there was an issue with the barrier’s/warning lights, but I got a fright because I wasn’t expecting to see a train as the crossing was open.

I was not the only vehicle who was crossing the level crossing either.

My question is, (& I think it’s obvious that the answer will be yes), should the barriers have been closed & lights be on, because of the train at the platform?

It was strange & it did give me a bit of a fright, as the Kirknewton line is used by fast/slow & freight trains.

If this is not appropriate or in the wrong post category , admins please feel free to delete or move this post.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

First off, apologies if this is in the wrong post category, I am posting this here because I have a question regarding Kirknewton level crossing.

Today, at 14:57pm, I was driving my lorry towards the level crossing, from the Kirknewton side.
As I approached the crossing, the barriers were up & the lights were not flashing, so I proceeded to go over the crossing as normal.

However, as I got onto the crossing, there was a train sitting at the station on the west bound (Glasgow) line. The train was stationary at the platform, with its lights on.
This is what caught my attention as I drove over the crossing (the illuminated headlights from the train)

Now, there was absolutely no red flashing warning lights for the crossing on & the barrier’s were up as if the crossing was clear.

I don’t know if there was an issue with the barrier’s/warning lights, but I got a fright because I wasn’t expecting to see a train as the crossing was open.

I was not the only vehicle who was crossing the level crossing either.

My question is, (& I think it’s obvious that the answer will be yes), should the barriers have been closed & lights be on, because of the train at the platform?

It was strange & it did give me a bit of a fright, as the Kirknewton line is used by fast/slow & freight trains.

If this is not appropriate or in the wrong post category , admins please feel free to delete or move this post.

Looks like the train (seemingly https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W59132/2023-12-14/detailed#allox_id=0) didn't spend an abnormal time sat in the platform.
Is it not reasonable to allow a passenger train to sit in the platform (with a red signal) while the barriers are open?

 

[Gloster]

Looking at streetview, there appears to be a signal at the west end of the platform, so as long as it is showing a red aspect it is quite safe.

 

[louis97]

Looking at streetview, there appears to be a signal at the west end of the platform, so as long as it is showing a red aspect it is quite safe.

Crossing is lowered by the driver of stopping trains there using a plunger on the platform.

 

[irp]

First off, apologies if this is in the wrong post category, I am posting this here because I have a question regarding Kirknewton level crossing.

Today, at 14:57pm, I was driving my lorry towards the level crossing, from the Kirknewton side.
As I approached the crossing, the barriers were up & the lights were not flashing, so I proceeded to go over the crossing as normal.

However, as I got onto the crossing, there was a train sitting at the station on the west bound (Glasgow) line. The train was stationary at the platform, with its lights on.
This is what caught my attention as I drove over the crossing (the illuminated headlights from the train)

Now, there was absolutely no red flashing warning lights for the crossing on & the barrier’s were up as if the crossing was clear.

I don’t know if there was an issue with the barrier’s/warning lights, but I got a fright because I wasn’t expecting to see a train as the crossing was open.

I was not the only vehicle who was crossing the level crossing either.

My question is, (& I think it’s obvious that the answer will be yes), should the barriers have been closed & lights be on, because of the train at the platform?

It was strange & it did give me a bit of a fright, as the Kirknewton line is used by fast/slow & freight trains.

If this is not appropriate or in the wrong post category , admins please feel free to delete or move this post.

Assuming there was a danger (red) aspect being shown to the Train, protecting the level crossing, I don't see an issue here. Train would not be permitted to move off until the doors were closed and barriers had been lowered anyway

 

[1955LR]

Same as Bucknall (BUK) Heart of Wales line / Station next to level crossing . Trains to Shrewsbury stop at station platform and cannot proceed over the crossing until white light showing . During this time traffic continues over the level crossing. Crew have to operate the crossing by getting out onto the platform and operating a plunger needing a key to access, road traffic stops at barriers and train proceeds. In the opposite direction the train operates the crossing on approach and when it clears to the platform ,Barriers raise. It can be disconcerting driving as due to the road layout, you turn across the front of the train if the barriers still up.

 

[MrBurnz]

I thought Kirknewton was an automatic operation crossing, I never knew about the plunger operation by the driver however.
Interesting.

 

[scotraildriver]

Stopping services require the driver to press the plunger to activate the crossing. Otherwise the barriers would be down for a long time whilst the train is at the station. Non stop services will be signalled straight through.

 

[Meerkat]

I can see how you would get a fright at night though, if you don't see the train until you are on the crossing and see the train headlights!

 

[Falcon1200]

I can see how you would get a fright at night though, if you don't see the train until you are on the crossing and see the train headlights!

Indeed. There have been occasions when a motorist phoned the Police to report this 'dangerous situation', the Police then contacted the railway but understood when the operation of the crossing was explained.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Indeed. There have been occasions when a motorist phoned the Police to report this 'dangerous situation', the Police then contacted the railway but understood when the operation of the crossing was explained.

We have a level crossing at Pakenham where every so often someone would get a fright at a train sitting at the signal with the booms up.

Boom gates disaster looms | Pakenham Officer Star News

By ANEEKA SIMONIS WITNESSES who sat in fear watching motorists cross one of Pakenham’s most dangerous level crossings despite an […]

pakenhamnews.starcommunity.com.au

Its quite common on our crossings where a signal exists at the end of the platform the signal will stay red until the crossing booms are horizontal. The crossing activates while the train is pulling into the platform.

 

[ruaival]

Indeed. There have been occasions when a motorist phoned the Police to report this 'dangerous situation', the Police then contacted the railway but understood when the operation of the crossing was explained.

If I read the above discussion thread correctly ... in the event of a stopping train failing to stop at the Red signal/ in the platform and continuing as far as the road, it would cross that with the barriers raised and no lights flashing?

 

[Tester]

If I read the above discussion thread correctly ... in the event of a stopping train failing to stop at the Red signal/ in the platform and continuing as far as the road, it would cross that with the barriers raised and no lights flashing?

The crossing close sequence would start as soon as the train passed the signal (keeping it simple), but it is highly likely that it would not be completed.

One of the many reasons why signals passed at danger are a big deal!

 

[norbitonflyer]

If I read the above discussion thread correctly ... in the event of a stopping train failing to stop at the Red signal/ in the platform and continuing as far as the road, it would cross that with the barriers raised and no lights flashing?

Well, yes. Nasty things do tend to happen if trains pass any red signal. That's why train drivers have to stop at them.

 

[Somewhere]

A train is supposed to have white lights on the front and red lights on the rear. They do not get switched off just because its stationary.
Although the working of this crossing has been explained, a train may also be at a station with the barriers raised because its waiting time, there may be a train in the section ahead, it may be terminating to go back the other way or there may be a signalling failure.
Perfectly safe and normal.
If a train should fail to stop at the red signal, there wig-wags (red flashing road lights) would activate.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Although the working of this crossing has been explained, a train may also be at a station with the barriers raised because its waiting time, there may be a train in the section ahead, it may be terminating to go back the other way or there may be a signalling failure.

Believe the Glasgow bound train which the OP saw yesterday was already running some 6 or 7 minutes down at Kirknewton having departed late from Edinburgh Waverley.

Would I be right in saying that Kirknewton is one of the few stations in Central Scotland without an overbridge?

 

[SouthSub]

It’s the same situation at Kingsknowe, further east on the same line. Again there is a signal at the west end of the platform, which remains red until the button is pressed in advance of the train departing.

 

[Falcon1200]

If I read the above discussion thread correctly ... in the event of a stopping train failing to stop at the Red signal/ in the platform and continuing as far as the road, it would cross that with the barriers raised and no lights flashing?

Unless the train and/or Driver had somehow failed or been unable to respond to the cautionary signal aspects preceding the red at Kirknewton the train would be moving slowly and would be stopped by a TPWS activation.

 

[ComUtoR]

Unless the train and/or Driver had somehow failed or been unable to respond to the cautionary signal aspects preceding the red at Kirknewton the train would be moving slowly and would be stopped by a TPWS activation.

Assuming you mean by train stop loops at the signal ?

 

[Falcon1200]

Assuming you mean by train stop loops at the signal ?

Yes.

 

[GB]

Yes.

If fitted. TPWS is not generally fitted to signals protecting level crossings.

 

[DelW]

Same as Bucknall (BUK) Heart of Wales line / Station next to level crossing . Trains to Shrewsbury stop at station platform and cannot proceed over the crossing until white light showing . During this time traffic continues over the level crossing. Crew have to operate the crossing by getting out onto the platform and operating a plunger needing a key to access, road traffic stops at barriers and train proceeds. In the opposite direction the train operates the crossing on approach and when it clears to the platform ,Barriers raise. It can be disconcerting driving as due to the road layout, you turn across the front of the train if the barriers still up.

There are several examples further south on the Heart of Wales line as well, notably Llandovery where the A40 crosses the end of the platforms, but also Llangadog, Ffairfach, Llandybie and Ammanford. Stations were built next to road crossings, and level crossings were cheaper to build than bridges.

 

[Falcon1200]

If fitted. TPWS is not generally fitted to signals protecting level crossings.

Good point. I don't have the means of checking whether Kirknewton is so fitted, although I would have thought that (in the Up direction at least) there would be a good case for it.

 

[driver9000]

Good point. I don't have the means of checking whether Kirknewton is so fitted, although I would have thought that (in the Up direction at least) there would be a good case for it.

The Up direction signal at Kirknewton has a Trainstop fitted.

 

[Falcon1200]

The Up direction signal at Kirknewton has a Trainstop fitted.

Thanks.

 

[TriumphRat]

The platform starter signal on the up line at Kirknewton has both stop loops at the signal and overspeed loops on approach.

I sign that route and from a train driver's perspective it's also quite surreal drawing into the station with road traffic crossing just a few meters ahead of you.

 

[dangerousdids2]

Most accidents involving level crossings are due to impatient people trying to beat the barriers. I think there is a similar crossing near me in yalding. If the train is stopping then the crossing remains open.
Makes sense to not hold up traffic if the train is sitting in the station.
As for mishaps, the driver has extensive knowledge of the route he's driving and should know how to stop the train in the station, also will know about slippery conditions etc and compensate accordingly.
Besides if there's a stop signal at the end of the platform will have fair warning they need to stop up ahead.
I believe network rail are trying to phase out level crossings in the near future anyway.
Not far from me there's still a manually operated crossing with the old hand pump!

 

[GB]

As for mishaps, the driver has extensive knowledge of the route he's driving and should know how to stop the train in the station, also will know about slippery conditions etc and compensate accordingly.
Besides if there's a stop signal at the end of the platform will have fair warning they need to stop up ahead.

There is a little thing called "human error".

 

[dangerousdids2]

There is a little thing called "human error".

This is why UK trains are fitted with safety systems, to prevent human error.

 

[Dieseldriver]

This is why UK trains are fitted with safety systems, to prevent human error.

To mitigate against human error. TPWS is not guaranteed or designed to prevent a signal being passed at danger, it’s there to mitigate the risk.