Knaresborough to York

[knaresbourough]

On Saturday 2nd March I was catching a train from Knaresborough to York.

I had bought 2 advance singles with 26-30 Railcards for me and my partner for the York to Knaresborough leg.

When on the platform for the return trip (Knaresborough to York), the train was due to arrive in 3 minutes when we realised that I hadn't bought our tickets. I tried to purchase the tickets on thetrainline app and it errored out saying it was unsuccessful. I walked up and down the platform to look for a ticket machine or ticket office, but there wasn't one. There was a ticket machine on the other platform but the barriers had already come down to stop people going across the track. Before the train reached the platform I purchased 2 tickets on thetrainline app for Cattal to York (one stop along) and the payment went through. Upon boarding the train I was approached by a Revenue Officer and explained the situation. He took pictures of the tickets I had bought, asked if the other ticket was for my partner, and then took pictures of my railcard and my partner's railcard. He mentioned that we would receive something in the post and could then explain the situation how the app wouldn't let us buy a ticket. I gave my address, my name and my partner's name. I asked him for his name and he said that it would be included on the letter that I receive. He did not speak to my partner at all during the conversation. He did not issue an on the spot penalty notice.

What can I expect here?

The actual amount I would have saved per ticket was £0.55 - so £1.10 only. I did try to make the purchase on thetrainline app and I've submitted a subject access request for any of my attempts to buy anything. You can see based on the time I purchased the actual tickets that it wasn't a case of me getting on a train and seeing a revenue officer and panicking, it was purchased on the platform. The CCTV will also show us walking up and down the platform looking for a ticket machine or ticket office, but there isn't one on that side.

Is the above mitigating enough to expect to not receive a penalty?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Technically, you short-fared and did not have a valid ticket for the entirety of your journey (i.e. from Knaresborough)

The experts will be along soon to explain further

 

[Djgr]

Why did you choose to attempt to buy a ticket from Cattal when you were at Knaresborough rather than attempt your ticket purchase again?

 

[spag23]

Why did you choose to attempt to buy a ticket from Cattal when you were at Knaresborough rather than attempt your ticket purchase again?

Perhaps because that was the only ticket for that train that - with this tight timeline - Trainline would allow the purchase of?
But the tight timeline was of course purely down to the OP's failure to buy the ticket in time; less than three minutes before departure is not enough.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why did you choose to attempt to buy a ticket from Cattal when you were at Knaresborough rather than attempt your ticket purchase again?

Probably because it would be 7 or 8 minutes before a train at Knaresborough would arrive into Cattal (next stop), so not too late for Trainline to allow a ticket to be purchased. It's essentially still short-faring though.

 

[WesternLancer]

Why did you choose to attempt to buy a ticket from Cattal when you were at Knaresborough rather than attempt your ticket purchase again?

Presumably a function of the ticket selling app that tries to force the ticket purchaser down the route of buying a ticket for a specific train - when there are of course tickets valid on every train - thus leading people to have the wrong tickets when they have no intention of evading the fare, but sadly lining them up for a disproportionately large penalty from the railway.

To the OP - too late now obviously, you need for future ref at least to experiment with a ticket buying site that allows you to buy tickets that are valid on different trains - usually called 'Anytime' or 'Off Peak' fares - and how to buy them when there in only a minute or less before the train departs as the offence is boarding the train without a valid ticket.

In terms of what you can expect it could be:

- Northern ignore this and you don't hear from them (sadly unlikely)
- Northern write with a letter threatening prosecution for fare evasion but asking for your side of the story which they then consider in due course (a possibility), you have to negotiate with them to ask for an out of court settlement to avoid prosecution (cost C£150+)
- Northern write to you with something they call a 'Fixed Penalty Notice' usually asks for £100. This has no right of appeal sadly - and is basically a demand for a payment in exchange for which they won't prosecute (I suspect but can't be sure that this is likely to be what you get sent)
- This assumes you were not issued with a Penalty Fare there and then - £100, reduced to £50 if paid promptly - (paying this is the least worst option - other than them ignoring the issue - if it was offered)

When you get any form of letter from them it is important to respond quickly (so watch your hard copy post) - but when you get that you can head here for advice on what the best options are and how to respond.

All you can do now is wait to hear from them then head back here for more advice as and when you need it - people will be happy to help.

Hope this helps at this stage. I sympathise as the situation you are in is frustrating and could now leave you significantly out of pocket compared with a ticket purchasing site that easily allowed you the option of travel on any train.

 

[knaresbourough]

Presumably a function of the ticket selling app that tries to force the ticket purchaser down the route of buying a ticket for a specific train - when there are of course tickets valid on every train - thus leading people to have the wrong tickets when they have no intention of evading the fare, but sadly lining them up for a disproportionately large penalty from the railway.

To the OP - too late now obviously, you need for future ref at least to experiment with a ticket buying site that allows you to buy tickets that are valid on different trains - usually called 'Anytime' or 'Off Peak' fares - and how to buy them when there in only a minute or less before the train departs as the offence is boarding the train without a valid ticket.

In terms of what you can expect it could be:

- Northern ignore this and you don't hear from them (sadly unlikely)
- Northern write with a letter threatening prosecution for fare evasion but asking for your side of the story which they then consider in due course (a possibility), you have to negotiate with them to ask for an out of court settlement to avoid prosecution (cost C£150+)
- Northern write to you with something they call a 'Fixed Penalty Notice' usually asks for £100. This has no right of appeal sadly - and is basically a demand for a payment in exchange for which they won't prosecute (I suspect but can't be sure that this is likely to be what you get sent)
- This assumes you were not issued with a Penalty Fare there and then - £100, reduced to £50 if paid promptly - (paying this is the least worst option - other than them ignoring the issue - if it was offered)

When you get any form of letter from them it is important to respond quickly (so watch your hard copy post) - but when you get that you can head here for advice on what the best options are and how to respond.

All you can do now is wait to hear from them then head back here for more advice as and when you need it - people will be happy to help.

Hope this helps at this stage. I sympathise as the situation you are in is frustrating and could now leave you significantly out of pocket compared with a ticket purchasing site that easily allowed you the option of travel on any train.

Thanks for your response and clear explanation.

Is the worst case scenario here that I have to pay a penalty notice for both me and my partner? There's no actual chance of a criminal record?

 

[skyhigh]

There's no actual chance of a criminal record?

There is the potential of a criminal record, though for a first offence it is unlikely if you engage with them.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks for your response and clear explanation.

Is the worst case scenario here that I have to pay a penalty notice for both me and my partner? There's no actual chance of a criminal record?

There is that option, and if it went to court then it would be relatively straightforward for the case against you to be proven.

However, provided you engage with them honestly and apologise for what happened, I'd be amazed if the outcome was worse than an out of court settlement costing around £150 (maybe, each).

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your response and clear explanation.

Is the worst case scenario here that I have to pay a penalty notice for both me and my partner? There's no actual chance of a criminal record?

No, sadly the worst case scenario is a prosecution, court fine etc and criminal record

Well, you did ask!

But...there is a very strong probability this be avoided so don't worry too much.

The biggest chance to you being prosecuted would probably arise if they wrote to you and for some reason you never got the letter, or you ignored it and did not reply. So important to check you gave them your correct contact details - postal address, where you can be contacted for at least the next few months - ie do not move address and forget about it! If you are a student and they write to you in uni holidays and you are not at the address you gave them that could also cause a problem - so be sure to avoid this happening. Other chance of you being prosecuted would be if you habitually evade fares and they know about that already or could find out (eg from an online ticket purchase record check).

 

[toffeedanish]

There was a ticket machine on the other platform but the barriers had already come down to stop people going across the track.

There is a subway, so you can always access the other platform, assuming no mobility issues. Granted with only the stated 3 minutes this was probably not an option.

 

[HBP]

There is a subway, so you can always access the other platform, assuming no mobility issues. Granted with only the stated 3 minutes this was probably not an option.

I believe the subway is currently closed or restricted.

‘closure of pedestrian steps from the station subway to platform 2 and a diversionary route for pedestrian access provided.”

Knaresborough's 70-year-old gantry and signal set for removal - The Stray Ferret

One of Knaresborough's most familiar sights — the railway signal and gantry — appears to have reached the end of the line.

thestrayferret.co.uk

 

[knaresbourough]

Final result was a £6 fine, which I'm guessing I could contest based on the subway being closed, but I won't. Just paid the £6 and can forget about it.

Thanks everyone for your help





As an aside, this letter is only addressed to me and does not include my partner. Should she expect one too?

 

[dosxuk]

Final result was a £6 fine

It's not a fine - that's the cost of a anytime single between Knaresborough and Cattal - they appear to have accepted your explanation and are only asking for the fare that is outstanding for the portion of your journey you did not have a ticket for.

Compared to some of the stories on here, you should really be seeing this result as an outstanding success! As post #6 said - a fixed penalty of £100 wouldn't be unusual for these circumstances.

 

[WesternLancer]

As an aside, this letter is only addressed to me and does not include my partner. Should she expect one too?

I would assume so yes, so she should watch out for her post as if not paid it will escalate I suspect.

Under the circs this is a good outcome (eg compared with say Penalty Fare or worse)

 

[Kite159]

A good outcome to just have to pay the £6 rather than having an admin fee added on top. With any luck, the letter for your partner will arrive next week with a similar outcome.

 

[alistairlees]

Was the subway ever completely closed? I was there yesterday and only a short stretch of steps from platform 2 to the subway was closed. The hoardings did not look brand new so it might have been like this last week. The alternative - clearly signposted - was to walk around 20 yards further to access the subway. There was no need to use the level crossing.

 

[800001]

Was the subway ever completely closed? I was there yesterday and only a short stretch of steps from platform 2 to the subway was closed. The hoardings did not look brand new so it might have been like this last week. The alternative - clearly signposted - was to walk around 20 yards further to access the subway. There was no need to use the level crossing.

Yes, it’s just a very short stretch from Sunday to platform 2 closed, where the signal gantry is.
You walk around outside near to where pub is. Subway remains open.