Knighton to Warrington

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animationmilo

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Hi,

I brought a £19.35 ticket from Knighton to Warrington Bank Quay today thats with 16-25 rail card. Well I hear its only valid changing at CREWE when it says Route Any Permitted.

What is wrong with doing
Knighton-Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury-Chester
Chester-Warrington Bank Quay

OR
Knighton-Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury-Manchester Pic
Manchester Pic-Warrington Bank Quay

Why is it only valid doing

Knighton-Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury-Crewe
Crewe-Warrington Bank Quay

They have 44 minutes waiting when going and only 8 minutes coming back.
 
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sonic2009

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Knighton's routeing point is Craven Arms.

So we Look at Permitted Routes Craven Arms to Warrington Bank Quay, this allows travel on maps : BD + BD + NC

Map BD : Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Warrington Bank Quay

Map BD + NC : Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Wimslow - Stockport - Manchester Picc - Bolton - Blackburn - Preston - Wigan - Warrington BQ also Blackburn - Hellifield Group - Lancaster - Preston - Wigan - Earlestown - Warrington BQ

Therefore does not allow Shrewsbury - Chester - WBQ.
 
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DJ737

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National Rail website states that you need two tickets via Chester.
Various TOC sites are happy to sell you one ticket if you specify "Avoid Crewe" :roll:
 

animationmilo

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Knighton's routeing point is Craven Arms.

So we Look at Permitted Routes Craven Arms to Warrington Bank Quay, this allows travel on maps : BD + BD + NC

Map BD : Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Warrington Bank Quay

Map BD + NC : Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Wimslow - Stockport - Manchester Picc - Bolton - Blackburn - Preston - Wigan - Warrington BQ also Blackburn - Hellifield Group - Lancaster - Preston - Wigan - Earlestown - Warrington BQ

Therefore does not allow Shrewsbury - Chester - WBQ.

So the £19.35 i Can go from Craven Arms to Manchester then manchester-warrington on the 175's?
 

John @ home

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Map BD + NC : Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Wimslow - Stockport - Manchester Picc - Bolton - Blackburn - Preston - Wigan - Warrington BQ
This route has doubling back Leyland - Preston, but Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Wimslow - Stockport - Manchester Picc - Bolton - Blackburn - Leyland - Wigan - Warrington BQ looks OK.

Map BD + NC : Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Wimslow - Stockport - Manchester Picc - Bolton - Blackburn - ... - Hellifield Group - Lancaster - Preston - Wigan - Earlestown - Warrington BQ
This interesting route can only be done Saturday/Sunday in summer and an overnight stop is needed. There are only two trains a week Blackburn - Hellifield, at 0927 and 1022 on Sundays.

So the £19.35 i Can go from Craven Arms to Manchester then manchester-warrington on the 175's?
Sorry, no. Manchester - Warrington is not on either map. See maps BD and NC.
 

animationmilo

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A simplistic answer is because it is not a permitted route. You haven't paid to go via Chester.

but chester then chester-warrington is not like going off route.
i think the fares system is just too stupid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Lets say i wanted to go from

Knighton to Runcorn East is that ok via Chester?
 

John @ home

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i think its RATHER STUPID you cant go chester, why on earth is that<(
The routes you are allowed to take are:
  • the shortest route over which a regular passenger service operates
  • a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route
  • a mapped route in the National Routeing Guide (NRG) unless it is a route prohibited by an Easement
  • a route permitted by an Easement
The fastest route plays no part in the calulation of a permitted route.

For Knighton - Warrington BQ, the shortest route is Knighton - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Warrington BQ (89 miles) and I can't find any route not more than 3 miles longer than this. Knighton - Shrewsbury - Chester - Warrington BQ is 92.5 miles, just half a mile too long.

EDIT: The NRG states The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable and that has been used to calculate the distances shown above. But the National Rail Timetable rounds distances to the nearest quarter mile, introducing errors. railmiles is a privately written piece of software which gives mileages to the nearest 22 yards (20 metres) so it should normally be more accurate. This gives:

railmiles said:
Distance: 89mi 26ch
Route: Knighton, Bucknell, Hopton Heath, Broome, Craven Arms, Shrewsbury, Yorton, Wem, Prees, Whitchurch (Shropshire), Wrenbury, Nantwich, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Warrington Bank Quay

Distance: 91mi 77ch -
Route: Knighton, Bucknell, Hopton Heath, Broome, Craven Arms, Shrewsbury, Gobowen, Chirk, Ruabon, Wrexham General, Chester, Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Warrington Bank Quay

If railmiles is accurate, and this needs to be checked in detail against Network Rail's Sectional Appendix, then Knighton - Shrewsbury - Chester - Warrington BQ is not a permitted route due to rounding errors in the National Rail Timetable. If that is so, it is worth using the procedures on the last page of the NRG Instructions to seek its addition as a permitted route.

Lets say i wanted to go from Knighton to Runcorn East is that ok via Chester?
Yes. For Knighton - Runcorn East, the shortest route is Knighton - Shrewsbury - Chester - Runcorn East (87.5 miles).
 
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animationmilo

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Has anyone noticed this

with 16-25 railcard

Knighton-Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury-Chester
Chester - Runcorn East
is £19.35

and that is the same price as the ticket to Warrington, so why should there be an issue on that route? i mean come on its the same price to runcorn east and you can go via Chester.
 

AlterEgo

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Has anyone noticed this

with 16-25 railcard

Knighton-Shrewsbury
Shrewsbury-Chester
Chester - Runcorn East
is £19.35

and that is the same price as the ticket to Warrington, so why should there be an issue on that route? i mean come on its the same price to runcorn east and you can go via Chester.

I can see your point, but there are hundreds of tickets between many destinations which cost £19.35, they all aren't valid on different routes!
 

LexyBoy

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It does seem rather silly that travel is not allowed via Chester, it certainly seems a reasonable route, so I'm not sure why it's not a permitted route.

What about Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows for a destination which would allow both routes? (I've not checked - just a suggestion).

The Routeing Guide does forbid plenty of other reasonable routes for different journeys - as well as allowing many preposterous routes!
 

animationmilo

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It does seem rather silly that travel is not allowed via Chester, it certainly seems a reasonable route, so I'm not sure why it's not a permitted route.

What about Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows for a destination which would allow both routes? (I've not checked - just a suggestion).

The Routeing Guide does forbid plenty of other reasonable routes for different journeys - as well as allowing many preposterous routes!


Yes seems weird. Maybe Arriva can look into it?
 

LexyBoy

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Yes seems weird. Maybe Arriva can look into it?

ATOC, not the TOCs, defines the permitted routes via the Routeing Guide - in the past people have had routes reinstated where changes to the RG had inadvertently removed a reasonable routeing option.

ATW do price this flow, which would suggest that via Chester is intended to be valid (since this can be done solely on ATW). I'd think it would be in their interest to have it a valid route, too, since their share of the revenue ought to increase if it is.
 

aformeruser

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i think its RATHER STUPID you cant go chester, why on earth is that<(

Probably because Warrington-Crewe is the most direct route and used to half hourly prior to the Crewe stop being removed from Glasgow-London services. (Virgin and the associated rail bodies failed to realise that not all people using Glasgow-London services actually go to London and thought the additional Manchester-London via Crewe services would compensate.)
 

sonic2009

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In reference to LexyBoy's post of Earlestown to allow both routes let's look :

Knighton - Earlestown valid via Maps BD and BD + LY

Map BD : Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Warrington - Earlestown

Map BD + LY = Knighton - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Crewe then Crewe - Wimslow - Heald Green - Manchester Picc or the Direct Route via Stockport - Manchester Picc - Warrington Central - Walk to Warrington Bank Quay - Earlestown or Manchester Picc - Earlestown via Eccles

also Map BD + LY allows same route Knighton - Crewe then Crewe - Stoke-On-Trent-Stockport-Manchester Picc then routes mentioned above from Manchester Picc - Warrington

so Earlestown is not valid via Chester Either...
 
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