L & Y trains from Salford towards Colne

[MisterSheeps]

I was idly browsing the David & Charles April 1910 Bradshaw timetable, and noticed that 1 train "terminated", and 11 trains "originated", at Salford (what is now Salford Central) serving the Clifton Junction, Bury, Accrington, Colne line; this behaviour not apparent on other lines through Salford.

As far as I know, Salford was only ever a through station. It took about 16 minutes non-stop to Bury from both Salford and Victoria, and a far more frequent service via Prestwich to Bury (some hourly continued to Bacup), so it is not as if Victoria passengers would overwhelm the service via Clifton Junction.

Why not originate from Manchester Victoria? Where did the ECS trains go? Red Bank? Newton Heath?

 

[Trackman]

I dont have all my references at hand at the moment, but I'm guessing the ECS would go to Ordsall lane sidings.

 

[edwin_m]

With the number of trains passing through Salford I doubt they would want to reverse a train in the platforms there to take it to Ordsall Lane. I'm wondering if they actually started/terminated at Victoria or even ran through to/from somewhere further east, but the L&Y wanted to direct Bury passengers onto the Prestwich route instead.

 

[exsignalman]

I understand that there was limited carriage sidings space (two roads I think) located immediately between the fast & slow lines between Deal Street & Manchester Victoria West Junction signal boxes at 'Irwell Bridge.
There was also along with these two carriage siding 'roads' a turntable was also provided to facilitate locomotive turnarounds, back when I worked on the railway as a signalman, these had all been lifted & were just a distant memory, with wasteland between the fast & slow lines but you could still see where these roads had once been.

I suppose that these could have been used to provide immediate 'turnback' facilities for Salford terminating services & in conjunction with the turntable a loco hauled service could easily be terminated at at Salford (now Salford Central) ... the stock (& locomotive) turned around etc within the carriage sidings at Irwell Bridge then turned out onto the main line to work another service westwards without ever impacting on any operations at Manchester Victoria station..

There were also other carriage sidings to the west of the city, on the L&Y at Irlam's Oth Heights, where there was once an actual full blown carriage shed, again sandwiched between the fast & slow lines of the L&Y's Windsor Bridge to Crow Nest Jct (Atherton Line), located between Brindle Heath Junction & Pendlebury signal boxes.

There were also other carriage sidings (& carriage shed) .. but this time on the LNWR at Ordsall Lane.

These days part of the 1980s 'Winsdor Link' now slices through the site of the LNWR carriage sidings at Ordsall Lane.
The carriage sidings & shed at Irlam's Oth Height are now urban wasteland.
The site of the carriage sidings/turnback sidings & turntable at Irwell Bridge are now just an open vacant open expanse of land between Deal Street Junction & Manchester Victoria Station.

The Carriage sidings between Deal Street & Manchester Victoria West Junction are a possibility where some services may have been turned around?.

Just a wild guess & pure speculation but I thought that I would at least mention the carriage sidings at Irwell Bridge.

Hope that this helps.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Looking at the 25" OS Map (revised 1915 / published 1922) Salford station did appear to have a down but not an up platform bay.

NLS Salford

Presumably it was a capacity thing at Victoria, and it must have been a pain for passengers from there to Bury and beyond to have to change at Salford.

The 1906 Bradshaw (available on Timetable World) has similar workings.

1906 Bradshaw

 

[Bevan Price]

I was idly browsing the David & Charles April 1910 Bradshaw timetable, and noticed that 1 train "terminated", and 11 trains "originated", at Salford (what is now Salford Central) serving the Clifton Junction, Bury, Accrington, Colne line; this behaviour not apparent on other lines through Salford.

As far as I know, Salford was only ever a through station. It took about 16 minutes non-stop to Bury from both Salford and Victoria, and a far more frequent service via Prestwich to Bury (some hourly continued to Bacup), so it is not as if Victoria passengers would overwhelm the service via Clifton Junction.

Why not originate from Manchester Victoria? Where did the ECS trains go? Red Bank? Newton Heath?

In part it was "historical". The original East Lancashire Railway, builder of the line from Clifton to Bury, was not exactly best of friends with the L&YR and predecessors - indeed, the latter blocked the junction at Clifton Junction on the opening day of the Bury line.

Also remember that Salford (Central) is closer to parts of Manchester city centre than Manchester Victoria; it also had a west-facing bay platform for use by "East Lancashire" services.

As for empty stock - a line which became part of the L&YR would not have used ex-LNWR sidings at Ordsall Lane. And in earlier years, I don't think there was a direct connection at Salford between the L&YR and LNWR lines. Any Salford arrivals that did not return home immediately are more likely to have gone to sidings in the Agecroft / Pendleton area. Don't forget there was also a large steam shed at Agecroft.

 

[exsignalman]

In part it was "historical". The original East Lancashire Railway, builder of the line from Clifton to Bury, was not exactly best of friends with the L&YR and predecessors - indeed, the latter blocked the junction at Clifton Junction on the opening day of the Bury line.

Also remember that Salford (Central) is closer to parts of Manchester city centre than Manchester Victoria; it also had a west-facing bay platform for use by "East Lancashire" services.

As for empty stock - a line which became part of the L&YR would not have used ex-LNWR sidings at Ordsall Lane. And in earlier years, I don't think there was a direct connection at Salford between the L&YR and LNWR lines. Any Salford arrivals that did not return home immediately are more likely to have gone to sidings in the Agecroft / Pendleton area. Don't forget there was also a large steam shed at Agecroft.

I know, I just mentioned the carriage sidings at Ordsall Lane with a view to the future & later company of the LMS (Sorry for going a bit off topic), I just thought that I'd mention it with a view to show the overall provision of carriage sidings on the Western side of the city if you see what I mean?, but as for L&Y days it would be more or less purely .. (carriage sidings wise) Irlams Oth Height's/Irwell Bridge I suppose.

 

[Andy873]

I was idly browsing the David & Charles April 1910 Bradshaw timetable, and noticed that 1 train "terminated", and 11 trains "originated", at Salford (what is now Salford Central) serving the Clifton Junction, Bury, Accrington, Colne line; this behaviour not apparent on other lines through Salford.

This route up to Accrington via Bury to Colne has an interesting history.

Firstly, you may say I can understand Bury to Salford / Manchester, but why Bury to Accrington? The answer lies in the cotton trade and the cotton mills of East Lancashire.

Manchester had the Cotton Exchange, buyers and sellers would gather every Tuesday and Thursday both to buy raw cotton and to sell reems of woven cloth. This buying and selling was done either by the mill owners, someone representing the mill or an agent. To give you an idea of the scale of things, thousands of people would attend the Exchange on those two days. Even small towns had lots of cotton mills, Padiham & Great Harwood (by 1910) had 44 mills in total.

With the line from Bury linking up with the East Lancs line at Accrington, you could comfortably catch a train from say Colne in the morning, conduct your business and be home by early evening.

As far as I know, Salford was only ever a through station.

Many of these train services from Colne did actually terminate at Salford. Back in 1910 it would have been very easy to catch a tram or even a horse drawn cab from Salford station to where you wanted to go.

Where did the ECS trains go? Red Bank? Newton Heath?

I've read a few times the mention of Red Bank, but not Newton Heath.

Can't speak for the Manchester side of things, but Accrington and Colne did have large carriage sheds. Colne especially was know for storing large numbers of empty coaching stock.

Before the days when the service was cut back from Colne to Accrington, up to around the 1920's trains running from Salford / Manchester had slip coaches. If the train was running to Colne but you wanted to get off at Accrington you had to make sure you were in the last two carriages. Coming down the Baxenden bank as the train approached Accrington the guard at the front of those two rear coaches would disconnect from the rest of the train. Then using a manual brake would (hopefully) bring the two coaches to a stand at the station, whilst the rest of the train continued without stopping.

The 1885 WTT show several express goods trains running from Colne on a daily basis. These trains ran in the early hours of the morning carrying all sorts of things including cattle and butter to Salford.

I can't answer the specific questions, but I hope this gives you some sort of picture of what was going on and why.

 

[Taunton]

Before the days when the service was cut back from Colne to Accrington, up to around the 1920's trains running from Salford / Manchester had slip coaches. If the train was running to Colne but you wanted to get off at Accrington you had to make sure you were in the last two carriages. Coming down the Baxenden bank as the train approached Accrington the guard at the front of those two rear coaches would disconnect from the rest of the train. Then using a manual brake would (hopefully) bring the two coaches to a stand at the station, whilst the rest of the train continued without stopping.

Don't hope! The slip guard of the Cornish Riviera slip coach for Taunton took considerable pride in pulling it up, not only at the platform, but with the front door directly opposite the subway steps.

The brake was not manual, but vacuum. The slip coach had considerable vacuum chambers underneath to give several brakes and releases.

 

[Gloster]

Before the days when the service was cut back from Colne to Accrington, up to around the 1920's trains running from Salford / Manchester had slip coaches. If the train was running to Colne but you wanted to get off at Accrington you had to make sure you were in the last two carriages. Coming down the Baxenden bank as the train approached Accrington the guard at the front of those two rear coaches would disconnect from the rest of the train. Then using a manual brake would (hopefully) bring the two coaches to a stand at the station, whilst the rest of the train continued without stopping.

Slip coaches had, as with all passenger vehicles, automatic brakes, usually vacuum, and these were what were used to bring them to a stand. The skill was in judging exactly when to release the coupling, which could vary depending on the train’s speed, and then applying the brake so as to stop smoothly at the correct point.

 

[6Gman]

I have a feeling that peak-hour trains starting at Salford Central survived to quite a late date (1950s?).

 

[30907]

I have a feeling that peak-hour trains starting at Salford Central survived to quite a late date (1950s?).

At a quick glance I can't find any on the Bury route in 1958.

The 4.25pm from Salford to Colne (with the Accrington slip) made it into the consciousness of this (then!) pre-teen Southerner. It was apparently worked by a Lanky 242T back in the day - I presume the info came from OS Nock or CJ Allen in one of their numerous volumes/articles.
It survives in the 1958 timetable as the 4.22pm (4.20pm Vic), non-stop to Accy.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Summer 1956 Passenger WTT includes some e.c.s. movements, but it does not show any incoming e.c.s. workings for the afternoon peak hour departures from Salford. Has anyone a 1950s freight WTT for the same area?

 

[billio]

My dad used to work in King Street in Manchester and he was of the opinion that it was more convenient to use Salford station rather than Victoria. It was also about 10 minutes quicker than the electric trains to Victoria. However the electric trains ran at a 10 minute interval during the rush hours whereas the service from Salford was more or less hourly. As I understood it the trains he caught via Clifton Junction did start from Salford.

As a child I traveled on this line via Clifton Junction and in particular remember the stretch where the railway ran alongside the Manchester, Bolton and Bury Canal near Pendlebury. Later in life I worked at the 'Electric Power Storage' and occasionally made use of the trains from Bury to Clifton Junction.

What interests me is the increase in journey times that has happened over the past decades since the line to Accrington has closed. Bury and beyond has no fast trains to Manchester, the Metro is slower and rougher than electric mainline trains might be and times by car from places like Accrington and Rossendale to Manchester is more than what was possible by train in the 60's, especially at the rush hour. But there we are, that was the past.

 

[Springs Branch]

I have a feeling that peak-hour trains starting at Salford Central survived to quite a late date (1950s?).

I don't have any timetables covering the mid-1950s (which might show the end date) but certainly in the LMR Passenger Timetable for June 1950, there were several daily trains which still started from Salford, not Victoria, all running Clifton Jn - Bury - Ramsbottom - Accrington.

• 12noon SO Salford - Skipton (from the days when Saturday morning still counted as a workday)
• 4:50pm SX Salford - Rose Grove
• 5:12pm SX Salford - Colne
• 5:25pm SX Salford - Colne

On Saturdays the 4:50pm to Rose Grove started from Bury Bolton St (SO required a connection from Victoria on the electric service via Prestwich).

In 1950, the 5:12pm was still non-stop from Salford all the way to Accrington - the remnant of that well-known slip coach train, but with the full train now making a 'proper' call at Accrington.

Morning 'business trains' in the opposite direction still called at Salford, but all were booked to terminate at Manchester Victoria in normal public service. Morning arrivals at Victoria in 1950 were at 8:19am (6:40 ex-Colne), 8:35am (6:48 ex-Skipton) and 9:10am (7:45am ex-Colne)

Manchester had the Cotton Exchange, buyers and sellers would gather every Tuesday and Thursday both to buy raw cotton and to sell reems of woven cloth. This buying and selling was done either by the mill owners, someone representing the mill or an agent. To give you an idea of the scale of things, thousands of people would attend the Exchange on those two days. Even small towns had lots of cotton mills, Padiham & Great Harwood (by 1910) had 44 mills in total.

With the line from Bury linking up with the East Lancs line at Accrington, you could comfortably catch a train from say Colne in the morning, conduct your business and be home by early evening.

Many of these train services from Colne did actually terminate at Salford. Back in 1910 it would have been very easy to catch a tram or even a horse drawn cab from Salford station to where you wanted to go.

A couple of things I remember reading about these Salford to East Lancs trains are:

• Because of the heavy use by waistcoated & be-whiskered mill owners travelling to the Cotton Exchange, these services had a higher-than-usual provision of First Class compartments than most similar trains.
  
  
• As well as the cotton magnates, the trains were also used by some of the more prosperous farmers from the Craven district of Yorkshire around Skipton, travelling to the large Salford Cattle Markets at Cross Lane - another short tram or cab ride from Salford station.
  
  Allegedly, at some time in the 19th Century the Salford Cattle Market was the "second largest in the world" (I'd expect a good few of the livestock markets in the Midwest of the US would have quickly surpassed anything in Britain).
  
  Interestingly, the afternoon through train back to Skipton departed a bit earlier than the 4:30 to 5:30pm 'rush hour' slot - 3:23pm from Victoria; still plenty of time to buy and sell their beasts and for the thirsty, cashed up farmers to enjoy a hearty lunch, before a well-lubricated doze on the mid-afternoon train to Skipton.

 

[Andy873]

Where did the ECS trains go? Red Bank? Newton Heath?

MY 1962 June passenger WTT shows two movements from Colne using the route as mentioned:

0Z00 LE 8.42 am to Newton Heath MPD.
3J83 ECS 1.30 pm Empty Vans to Red Bank.

Both ran on Saturdays only.

The 1962 WTT also shows that all passenger trains using this route all start from / terminate at Manchester Victoria, Salford isn't listed. To get off at Salford from East Lancashire you had to change at Blackburn.

As well as the cotton magnates, the trains were also used by some of the more prosperous farmers from the Craven district of Yorkshire around Skipton, travelling to the large Salford Cattle Markets at Cross Lane - another short tram or cab ride from Salford station.

Interesting - I didn't know about the cattle market traffic!

Because of the heavy usage by waistcoated & be-whiskered mill owners travelling to the Cotton Exchange, these services had a higher-than-usual proportion of First Class carriages than most similar trains.

Yes it does seem that way regarding first class travel, that's why slip coaches were used as the L&Y didn't want to upset those regular well paying customers, just get them home as soon as possible.

3:23pm from Victoria

Which would easily get you back home say 4.30 - 5.00ish.

 

[infobleep]

Which would easily get you back home say 4.30 - 5.00ish.

Now days it takes 1 hour 38/39 minutes, with 1 change.

 

[30907]

Now days it takes 1 hour 38/39 minutes, with 1 change.

The 2 evening peak expresses in 1958 took 72 and 74 min with 3 stops