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Labour promises rail nationalisation within five years of coming to power

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Goldfish62

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I cannot see a reason not to do what Labour is suggesting. Can anyone seriously suggest that the current system is fit for purpose - what do the TOCs actually do? I actually think the policy is incredibly un-ideological. Ideological was privatising it in the first place.
YES! The proposals appear to have been received by those who don't have a vested interest as decidedly pragmatic and un-ideological.

After the last couple of years of ideological soundbites from Louise Haigh I'm very pleasantly surprised at the well through-out proposals, which demonstrate a clear understanding of the mess the railways are in and a sensible way out of it.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Few would argue that the public owned LNER, Northern and SE have been more successful than the previous private operators.

I don't like their fares policy, but I definitely do think LNER are by far the most professional operator of the ECML since BR. I don't share the enthusiasm some have for GNER, they just carried on post BR as was with some blue paint and some incredible disdain among some staff for Standard passengers, as well as an awful single piece seat in the refurbs that had the base sloping the wrong way (fixed by VTEC).

Northern is a bit rubbish but the present version is absolutely better than the dead hand of Arriva.

Southeastern does the job, there's very little glitz in commuter operation.

About time.

Water and other utilities next, please.

There has to be fair been some innovation in the energy industry as there is scope for competition there (though it's interesting that it hasn't developed here like it has in Germany, where the competition is more about being able to choose means of generation, e.g. pay to ensure enough green energy is purchased to cover your full usage).

Water has no scope for competition so absolutely should be renationalised. It comes out of the sky, that's the only type. Interestingly in some European countries it's a city council thing.
 

The Planner

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What a single entity would do, with economies of scale is allow things like large-scale electrification, 4G/5G, IT savings (de-duplication of systems), simplified ticketing.
How does having no TOCs make an impact on delivery of infrastructure?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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How does having no TOCs make an impact on delivery of infrastructure?
I guess it depends how the GBR Regions are set up, relative to NR's structure.
By CP8 we may have a dynamic combined GBR/NR Region pushing for electrification on its patch (as the Scotland's Railway alliance did).
But I expect at least for CP7 that there will be a lot of muddling through on existing separate budgets and plans.
Neither Con nor Lab have said how infrastructure enhancements will be handled in the GBR era.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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TPE on the other hand absolutely is more successful under public ownership than it was under First.
Yes they've bought stability but its come by hacking back on services and the cost to the taxpayer has gone up but what does that matter as long as DafT can claim credit for sorting it out.
 

Meole

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Yes they've bought stability but its come by hacking back on services and the cost to the taxpayer has gone up but what does that matter as long as DafT can claim credit for sorting it out.
Not a real reason to go public ownership then, if TPE had been given the extraordinary cash injection then the service could well be better than current.
 

DanNCL

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Yes they've bought stability but its come by hacking back on services and the cost to the taxpayer has gone up but what does that matter as long as DafT can claim credit for sorting it out.
If by 'hacking back' you mean they've simplified the service pattern to something actually workable and that the travelling public can rely on then yes. I wouldn't call it 'hacking back', the timetable still has reasonable frequencies for most if not all stations, even if it did come at the expense of a daytime through Manchester-Scarborough service.

Not a real reason to go public ownership then, if TPE had been given the extraordinary cash injection then the service could well be better than current.
No amount of cash sorts out unrealistic timetables and over optimistic expectations of what staff are capable of, only competent management does that.

Depends how you define ‘successful’. Nothing has changed on the Hull route.
On the Newcastle route it's a million times better than before. We can actually plan a journey using TPE and expect the train to turn up now, 12 months ago we couldn't.

But cost to the taxpayer has shot up.
And? It's a public service that's actually usable for most passengers now rather than something completely useless. As a taxpayer I'm happy with my money going towards that.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I don't like their fares policy, but I definitely do think LNER are by far the most professional operator of the ECML since BR.
How you can say that with a straight face weeks after they slapped an enormous vinyl picture of one of The Muppets on the side of their trains and proudly announced to the world "ELEANOR HAS ARRIVED," I just do not know.

Virgin was showy and informal, but that's their famous shtick, so it goes. National Express was obviously a mess. East Coast was fine though. I thought it was quite a well run operation. I feel rather wistful whenever I rewatch "The Railway: Keeping Britain On Track." and see what it was like.
 

yorksrob

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Not a real reason to go public ownership then, if TPE had been given the extraordinary cash injection then the service could well be better than current.

No real reason not to have public ownership either.

Everytime these arguments come up, the privatisers forget that there was no reason to go private either.
 

Goldfish62

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No real reason not to have public ownership either.

Everytime these arguments come up, the privatisers forget that there was no reason to go private either.
Indeed. Vested interests, that's all it is. I'd expect them to kick up, but then their primary interest is their shareholders, not the travelling public.

For example, Transport UK, a recent management buyout from NedRail, is only going to be left with London Bus and rail replacement. But then they must have known the risk of this would be extremely high.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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If by 'hacking back' you mean they've simplified the service pattern to something actually workable and that the travelling public can rely on then yes. I wouldn't call it 'hacking back', the timetable still has reasonable frequencies for most if not all stations, even if it did come at the expense of a daytime through Manchester-Scarborough service.
Yup thats what i mean. The point being is TPE were funded to deliver many more services but I agree had fundamentally made a complete hash of it over many years. However, be interesting to know whether they had engaged with DafT about short term remedies and were pushed back or not. Whatever it was easy for someone new to just go in and be given a free hand but TPE are still carrying all that cost albeit will be some reduction from the 68/Mk5s going off lease shortly.
 

Gigabit

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How does having no TOCs make an impact on delivery of infrastructure?

How does having TOCs make an impact at all? It's a pointless distinction?

Taxpayers subsidise roads, why not railways?

YES! The proposals appear to have been received by those who don't have a vested interest as decidedly pragmatic and un-ideological.

After the last couple of years of ideological soundbites from Louise Haigh I'm very pleasantly surprised at the well through-out proposals, which demonstrate a clear understanding of the mess the railways are in and a sensible way out of it.

To me it acknowledges quite clearly that nationalisation is not a "silver bullet" but what it would allow is a way forward that would maximise a singular entity that would work for the public. I cannot see any benefit to privately contracting out the services under Shapps plan, may as well just run them under the public sector. Can anyone explain how I am wrong?
 

HullRailMan

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o me it acknowledges quite clearly that nationalisation is not a "silver bullet" but what it would allow is a way forward that would maximise a singular entity that would work for the public.
Has the railway ever worked ‘for the public’? Very few, if any, public services do that - we have to fit in with them.

As for the silver bullet, in all fairness they do try to manage expectations around fare reductions, for example. However, I think nationalisation has been touted by many on the left as a magic solution for so long that many will feed underwhelmed and rather disappointed once these reforms kick in.
 

Goldfish62

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As for the silver bullet, in all fairness they do try to manage expectations around fare reductions, for example. However, I think nationalisation has been touted by many on the left as a magic solution for so long that many will feed underwhelmed and rather disappointed once these reforms kick in.
There's a total polarisation of political views these days and no one is allowed nuanced or critical thinking without being shouted down by the hard left or hard right. According to the hard left I'm a Red Tory, but the hard right would say I'm a Communist.

The argument that everything is brilliant under the public sector goes pop when the Post Office is mentioned.

The fact is though, passenger rail is effectively a monopoly supplier unless you are in easy reach of open access operators, and, post-Covid requires large amounts of public money to keep going so why pay someone else to run it when you can run it yourself without the bureaucracy of contractual interfaces?
 

Andyh82

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I still think it will make little difference, all labour are proposing is taking over the TOCs, still little incentive to improve services and even less incentive to reduce overcrowding. Infrastructure will be the same as now, it's just political ideology that's driving this.

There's been positives and negatives from privatised TOCs which have been discussed many times, when a well run TOC is running it everything is rosy, badly run everything is dreadful. If there's regional GBR then a well run region will have good performance and other regions will have their problems, pretty much like today.

Yes rather than nationalisation on its own, there needs to be some headline targets. By 20xx we will - buy xx new carriages, reduce fares by xx%, employ xx more staff, introduce xx more services, introduce a charter than means there will be no more than x% delays and x% cancellations etc etc

The policy of nationalisation on its own is popular with the public because they think the only reason railways are bad is because fat cat bosses are creaming off billions of pounds in profit every day. An idea often perpetuated in press releases by the RMT etc. The reason the train is overcrowded? Because the private company prefers to give the money to shareholders rather than invest in new carriages. People will get a shock when they realise this isn’t the case, and it’s the same service with a new livery.
 

Goldfish62

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Has everyone commenting here actually read Labour's proposals and understood them in the context of the problems facing today's railways?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Yes rather than nationalisation on its own, there needs to be some headline targets. By 20xx we will - buy xx new carriages, reduce fares by xx%, employ xx more staff, introduce xx more services, introduce a charter than means there will be no more than x% delays and x% cancellations etc etc
That actually is the gist of an individual pre-Covid franchise contract for a TOC.
Although not expressed in quite those terms, and hedged about with premium/subsidy targets and various DfT constraints.
And not always delivered (notably the "reduce fares" bit).

On roads, the government funds the infrastructure, but operations are down to the users (car, bus/coach, truck).
Again, that's not very different to the current rail model: DfT funds Network Rail and passengers/freight users fund the TOCs - except they don't.

I wouldn’t know where to look and if I did does it go on & on?
There was a link in post #76:

28 quite readable pages.
 
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norbitonflyer

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The taking over of TOCs isn't the significant part. What is is removing civil service micromanagement and putting railway professionals back in charge of running the railways.
Also the siphoning off of money into shareholders pockets (mainly foreign state owned railwys!)
Also the lack of co-operation between operators,
  • not honouring each other's tickets
  • not honouring connections, knowing delay repay will be paid by the incoming train's operator (and therefore damage a competitor's bottom line) even though the incoming connection is less than ten minutes late, holding the connection would have cost three minutes but failing to make the connection costs the poor passenger an hour.
  • a lack of planning of a sensible cascade of rolling stock, and wasteful changes of plan due to "not invented here" by new incumbent (eg class 455 and 458/5 upgrades, class 707)
  • incompatible rolling stock
  • money wasted in unsuccessful bids
 

norbitonflyer

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Then, as above, what would TfL taking over these routes actually achieve? Probably one for another thread, but it isn’t immediately obvious how GBR will change any of the above vis a vis TfL and the near-London suburban network.
One tghing it would achieve is fares equity between north and south London. The "TOC tax" paid by SWR, Southern and SET's customers victims always existed but thanks to Khan's fares freeze not applying to NR fares is now nearly 50% - even more if you want to venture beyond the London terminal onto the Tube.
 

The Planner

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How does having TOCs make an impact at all? It's a pointless distinction?

Taxpayers subsidise roads, why not railways?
They do already, but to what extent should it go to? Its not a bottomless pit. Things that are often mentioned on here such as costs, procurement and framework contracts all need to become value for money as well.
 

43066

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There’s a lot more to TPE’s improvement than just RDW. The timetable was cut back to something more achievable and major progress was made in reducing the training backlog. Iirc both of those were OLR implementations.

The single biggest change was the RDW agreement. What does that, or any of the other changes you describe above, have to do with the change of ownership? The DfT are running the privately owned operators via NRCs as closely as the publicly owned ones via the OLR.

And? It's a public service that's actually usable for most passengers now rather than something completely useless. As a taxpayer I'm happy with my money going towards that.

Almost everybody would agree with the above statement because I’m sure we all want a usable railway service. I would ask what ownership of the entity providing the service has to do with that?

Arriva Rail London, for example, are delivering an excellent service as a private sector concessionaire, far better than OLR owned Northern rail are providing.

Taxpayers subsidise roads, why not railways?

You do realise taxpayers subsidise railways under the current system?

To me it acknowledges quite clearly that nationalisation is not a "silver bullet" but what it would allow is a way forward that would maximise a singular entity that would work for the public. I cannot see any benefit to privately contracting out the services under Shapps plan, may as well just run them under the public sector. Can anyone explain how I am wrong?

Because part of the cause of the current issues is that TOCs are being paid a fee by the government, regardless of how good or bad the service they provide is, or even whether they deliver it at all. Hence they simply don’t care.

Removal of private sector involvement in the delivery of train services risks entrenching the current position, and taking us back to the days of BR. There will be no incentive whatsoever to provide a servide to the public, and the attitude will be “like it or lump it”. A lot of people on here complain that the railway is already like that, so expect it to get worse!


Many thanks.

I see Louise Haigh hasn’t set her lights properly in the picture on page 5. Let’s hope she’s rather better at driving the DfT :D.

One tghing it would achieve is fares equity between north and south London. The "TOC tax" paid by SWR, Southern and SET's customers victims always existed but thanks to Khan's fares freeze not applying to NR fares is now nearly 50% - even more if you want to venture beyond the London terminal onto the Tube.

You’ve still got several TOCs serving north London, though? I take the point there are far fewer TFL services in SE London.

Has everyone commenting here actually read Labour's proposals and understood them in the context of the problems facing today's railways?

There’s a lot of good stuff in there, and the idea of a “reset” is to be welcomed - anything is better than the current situation. I just think what they want to achieve could be done more simply and easily using the concession model.
 

ComUtoR

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  • not honouring each other's tickets

When will this change ? Lets agree that in 5yrs time All TOCS are no nationalised and under one banner. Do you believe that if I had a train ticket from London to Birmingham, I could get on any service with any ticket, at any time, on any unit ?


  • not honouring connections, knowing delay repay will be paid by the incoming train's operator (and therefore damage a competitor's bottom line) even though the incoming connection is less than ten minutes late, holding the connection would have cost three minutes but failing to make the connection costs the poor passenger an hour.

This will never change. The system by design is built that way. Its also a bit of a red herring. One of the reasons to not hold the connection is so that the services can run on time. I know that the knock on effect is hard to accept but it's real and will never go away.

  • incompatible rolling stock

This is actually a good thing. My TOC has 6 (I think) different stock and none are compatible together. The reason why we have 6 is because times change, innovation happens, technology has been added, old stuff that didn't work has been replaced and upgraded, passenger demands have changed, different services types have different needs, etc etc. One of the key objectives is 'Safe services' If Labour want to introduce new technologies across the network that will come with incompatibility.
 

Goldfish62

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Arriva Rail London, for example, are delivering an excellent service as a private sector concessionaire, far better than OLR owned Northern rail are providing.

There’s a lot of good stuff in there, and the idea of a “reset” is to be welcomed - anything is better than the current situation. I just think what they want to achieve could be done more simply and easily using the concession model.
The concession model works well with TfL because they are tightly specified contracts by a local transport authority that knows its market intimately. Also, by the nature of the operations both The Overground and Lizzy line are very simple models. Moving largely captive, large numbers of people in basic conditions over short distances on relatively self-contained systems.

In the longer distance market you need innovation, and quickly, as you're in competition against the private car and short haul flights. The concession model isn't agile enough for that. BR Intercity was good at it, Virgin was good at it. Neither would have worked well under a concession model where any changes to the operation mid-contract require long-drawn out negotiations and contractual variations.
 

Cowley

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We’ve got a few too many threads going on at the moment, so to tidy things up and avoid duplication we’ve decided to direct people to the two main threads below:


 
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