Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[Failed Unit]

That's interesting to hear. At my local stations, Cambridge and Ely, which are of course managed by Greater Anglia, not Great Northern, I've noticed that the new departure screens introduced over the last few years have exactly the same problem. They're much worse at dealing with "the train at this platform isn't in service" or "the next train doesn't stop here" than they used to be, and very often they continue to show the next scheduled timetabled service rather that what is actually at the platform. I always considered it a minor annoyance, and never thought of it as a major issue, but your post shows exactly why it might be.

It is interesting that WGN doesn't have this problem (only highlighting this because it is the same company). Although it does take them a while to send a 700 to the sidings as a member of staff needs to walk down the train checking each coach.

Welwyn Garden City does have the advantage that it has another platform compared to Letchworth. I think however it is another driver that does the shunt.

 

[Class 170101]

It's not absolute block signalling there

TCB now but still planned as AB according to Train Planning Rules and looking at the EMR schedule it looks like it basically cannot leave Thetford until the GA train in front of it passes Harling Road.

 

[dk1]

TCB now but still planned as AB according to Train Planning Rules and looking at the EMR schedule it looks like it basically cannot leave Thetford until the GA train in front of it passes Harling Road.

No train can arrive at Thetford until the previous train passes clear of the section at Harling Road.

 

[Class 170101]

No train can arrive at Thetford until the previous train passes clear of the section at Harling Road.

Thought it might be as bad as that but wasn't going for it for certainty.

 

[dk1]

Thought it might be as bad as that but wasn't going for it for certainty.

The stop signal is before Thetford. When resignalling took place NR refused another section referring to the stupidity of two trains within 10mins then nothing for 50. That should hopefully be corrected when Croxton AHB becomes MCB-OD and signal protected.

 

[Horizon22]

You only need to encounter someone drunk or sleeping and refusing to leave (I've seen one train delayed 54 minutes due to someone refusing to get off and getting aggressive - the time being to get BTP involved) and the delays soon build up.

Yes but there are stations out there that routinely have to sweep trains in less time of sometimes longer stock that are able to manage it.

 

[MikeWM]

I have noticed that the departure screens on the platform at Letchworth are showing the Kings Lynn service when the terminating service arrives.
I was on 1L48 today. When I alighted at Letchworth several people on the platform were beginning to board at one of the other doors. Others were rushing down the stairs whilst I was going up them and presumably thinking it was the Kings Lynn service. So it may take a few minutes to clear these passengers from the train.

Interesting, thanks. Hopefully they can sort this out, as it doesn't sound like it is helping much.

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You only need to encounter someone drunk or sleeping and refusing to leave (I've seen one train delayed 54 minutes due to someone refusing to get off and getting aggressive - the time being to get BTP involved) and the delays soon build up.

Indeed - so actually I'm wondering how realistic having a service terminate in a platform, and then have another through service need to use the same platform just 7 minutes later.

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Yes but there are stations out there that routinely have to sweep trains in less time of sometimes longer stock that are able to manage it.

Other than London Underground, I've had a quick look at some 'obvious' candidates and haven't found any other examples of (terminating train arrives -> through train arrives) that are 7 minutes or under. Are there any, and if so, do they perform ok?

 

[sharpener]

Welwyn Garden City does have the advantage that it has another platform compared to Letchworth.

If Letchworth had been completed with four platform faces as the architect intended this wouldn't now be a problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letchworth_Garden_City_railway_station.

Is there bi-di signalling which would allow the up road to be used as a workaround?

 

[Magdalia]

If Letchworth had been completed with four platform faces as the architect intended this wouldn't now be a problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letchworth_Garden_City_railway_station.

But there would have been a different problem instead, it would not have been possible to extend platforms to take 12 car trains.

Is there bi-di signalling which would allow the up road to be used as a workaround?

No. Royston has bi-di signalling but since 2018 it is rarely used for wrong line running because of disruption to trains coming the other way.

 

[sharpener]

No. Royston has bi-di signalling but since 2018 it is rarely used for wrong line running because of disruption to trains coming the other way.

On this note what was the thinking behind turning back some services at Baldock, which IIRC they used to do despite there being nowhere off the running lines, and does it still happen?

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed - so actually I'm wondering how realistic having a service terminate in a platform, and then have another through service need to use the same platform just 7 minutes later.

Paddington Elizabeth line does it in 2 minutes…

 

[Magdalia]

On this note what was the thinking behind turning back some services at Baldock, which IIRC they used to do despite there being nowhere off the running lines, and does it still happen?

I don't know, it never struck me as being a good idea.

If I remember correctly reversing passenger trains at Baldock only lasted from May 2018 until the first Covid lockdown in March 2020.

 

[bramling]

I don't know, it never struck me as being a good idea.

If I remember correctly reversing passenger trains at Baldock only lasted from May 2018 until the first Covid lockdown in March 2020.

I wonder if that was partly a hangover from the original plan which was that (IIRC) the Cambridge-Brighton services weren’t going to serve Baldock.

So having the 365s serve Baldock would have been a sweetener to assuage Baldock passengers.

It wasnt great, but saying that it worked fairly well when things were on time.

Just at Letchworth now, but for the fact they’ve now built lift towers in the way, it doesn’t look like it would be that difficult to build a loop on the down side. Obviously the ideal would be a central terminating platform, but even some sort of third road on the down side would help get terminating trains out of the way. Not sure how easy it would be to justify financially though, bearing in mind there’s been a number of timetables in recent years where the only Letchworth terminating trains are at the end of the day.

And another GN meltdown this evening, this time a fatality during the afternoon at Welham Green. Once again, virtually the whole GN service has vanished into thin air, with seemingly zero attempt to manage any provision of service. King’s Cross is completely silent in terms of information, and not a driver in sight. Definitely some serious questions as to GTR’s ability to control and manage the service.

 

[Bikeman78]

I wonder if that was partly a hangover from the original plan which was that (IIRC) the Cambridge-Brighton services weren’t going to serve Baldock.

So having the 365s serve Baldock would have been a sweetener to assuage Baldock passengers.

It wasnt great, but saying that it worked fairly well when things were on time.

Just at Letchworth now, but for the fact they’ve now built lift towers in the way, it doesn’t look like it would be that difficult to build a loop on the down side. Obviously the ideal would be a central terminating platform, but even some sort of third road on the down side would help get terminating trains out of the way. Not sure how easy it would be to justify financially though, bearing in mind there’s been a number of timetables in recent years where the only Letchworth terminating trains are at the end of the day.

And another GN meltdown this evening, this time a fatality during the afternoon at Welham Green. Once again, virtually the whole GN service has vanished into thin air, with seemingly zero attempt to manage any provision of service. King’s Cross is completely silent in terms of information, and not a driver in sight. Definitely some serious questions as to GTR’s ability to control and manage the service.

Salfords and Earlswood made it onto the top 10 worst stations for cancellations. I am surprised that Littlehaven, Ifield, Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots and Huntingdon are not on the list too. Shows how shocking the Three Bridges to Bedford route is.

 

[MikeWM]

Once again, virtually the whole GN service has vanished into thin air, with seemingly zero attempt to manage any provision of service.

They claimed to be running Cambridge to Kings Lynn shuttles, but no such thing actually appeared to be in existence, with people on Twitter told to use helppoints north of Ely. If RTT is to be believed, Kings Lynn had no arrivals between 1539 and 2009 - almost three hours after the disruption was 'ended' - and no departures between 1656 and 2045. I continue to find it baffling how they can't ever seem to manage to set up shuttles on the northern part of their route when there is disruption close to London. Given the frequency of such disruption, you'd think they'd have some sort of plan in place, but clearly they don't.

There also appeared to be a second issue between Royston and Cambridge, with down services appearing to take an hour or so between those points rather than the more usual 15 minutes - eg. see 1T48 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W23378/2025-03-10/detailed) and 1T50 (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W23384/2025-03-10/detailed) - but GN didn't bother to tell anyone on their website or on Twitter or waiting at stations what that was all about, so people waiting to catch these services going north just got to stand around at cold stations and wonder why a cleared incident near London was supposedly the cause of all the down services sitting at Royston for 30 minutes or more. I still don't know why now :-/

Fortunately, given I was trying to get to Ely, I managed to get a combination of GA and XC and got home late - but not excessively so.

 

[arb]

They claimed to be running Cambridge to Kings Lynn shuttles, but no such thing actually appeared to be in existence,

When I arrived at Cambridge last night, Greater Anglia had organised separate taxi queues outside the station for Littleport and each station beyond (not Waterbeach/Ely since, as you said, GA/XC were still serving those stations). I don't think they'd have been organising taxis like that if a shuttle service was running!

There also appeared to be a second issue between Royston and Cambridge, with down services appearing to take an hour or so between those points

The platforms at Cambridge were littered with abandoned GN/Thameslink trains, reducing capacity and adding delays to other services. Is it possible that there were other GN services supposed to terminate at Cambridge but were in fact being held outside the station due to the lack of capacity, which would explain your trains being held at Royston? I didn't look at a signalling map at the time so that is a complete guess...

 

[Magdalen Road]

The 1512 Kings Cross - Kings Lynn got cancelled so went to Ely on tube via Tottenham Hale, then GA to Cambridge. A very delayed Kings Lynn train arrived from King's Cross at Cambridge; announced as going to Ely but no mention of when. Platform staff said "soon", and got them to announce departure time.
Got the Birmingham train as seemed more likely to run. That left late due to late staff then there was a speed restriction just north of Waterbeach so that was also delayed. Over an hour late into Ely, eventually (1730 rather than 1623). Staff there had just ordered 30 taxis for Kings Lynn and intermediate stations as they'd been informed that the next few 'shuttles' were cancelled. So I don't think the shuttles were running.
This morning the 0514 Kings Lynn to Kings Cross is cancelled due to yesterday's issues.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

The platforms at Cambridge were littered with abandoned GN/Thameslink trains, reducing capacity and adding delays to other services. Is it possible that there were other GN services supposed to terminate at Cambridge but were in fact being held outside the station due to the lack of capacity, which would explain your trains being held at Royston? I didn't look at a signalling map at the time so that is a complete guess...

I was looking at signalmaps and I think that's exactly it. There was no capacity for trains at Cambridge as they left trains abandoned in the platforms, so they had to be held at stations before, like Foxton and Royston

 

[wagnaga]

I was looking at signalmaps and I think that's exactly it. There was no capacity for trains at Cambridge as they left trains abandoned in the platforms, so they had to be held at stations before, like Foxton and Royston

Is there a reason trains couldn't be shunted into the sidings keeping platforms free? Yes it would perhaps delay service recovery but there has to be a limit on how many platforms can be occupied especially given blocking any through platform is far worse than say the bay platforms.

 

[MikeWM]

When I arrived at Cambridge last night, Greater Anglia had organised separate taxi queues outside the station for Littleport and each station beyond (not Waterbeach/Ely since, as you said, GA/XC were still serving those stations). I don't think they'd have been organising taxis like that if a shuttle service was running!

Well, indeed. These 'shuttles' they always mention will rarely, if ever, materialise in the real world.

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Staff there had just ordered 30 taxis for Kings Lynn and intermediate stations as they'd been informed that the next few 'shuttles' were cancelled. So I don't think the shuttles were running.

It does strike me as somewhat astonishing that it is accepted as 'normal' now that Kings Lynn gets no service when there are issues at the London end. Good on the one hand that taxis are arranged, but I'd really rather my fares were paying for a service rather than endless taxis all over the Fens. Especially when GN have just put their weekend tickets up 11% - I wonder if their taxi bills are related to that.

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I was looking at signalmaps and I think that's exactly it. There was no capacity for trains at Cambridge as they left trains abandoned in the platforms, so they had to be held at stations before, like Foxton and Royston

That may have been the case earlier (and I've certainly seen it happen before) but didn't appear to be an issue when I found myself at Cambridge around 1845. 1, 4 and 8 were all free; 7 had a (very) delayed Thameslink service but that moved off while I was there.

Possibly the signaller had been bitten by abandoned trains blocking platforms earlier, and so wasn't letting anything that would terminate at Cambridge off the branch until 7 was clear? There were a couple of Thameslinks stuck on the branch with the Kings Lynn services sandwiched between them. In that case though, surely the 1T services ought to have got priority onto the branch into the first place, rather than having Thameslink terminators delay everything?

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Here's the latest 4-week rolling average:



Lovely.

I note that on Friday (when I wasn't travelling, of course) all these 8 services were on time (!!!). So it seems that the timetable *can* work if all the stars align correctly, just that they usually don't.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

That may have been the case earlier (and I've certainly seen it happen before) but didn't appear to be an issue when I found myself at Cambridge around 1845. 1, 4 and 8 were all free; 7 had a (very) delayed Thameslink service but that moved off while I was there.

Possibly the signaller had been bitten by abandoned trains blocking platforms earlier, and so wasn't letting anything that would terminate at Cambridge off the branch until 7 was clear? There were a couple of Thameslinks stuck on the branch with the Kings Lynn services sandwiched between them. In that case though, surely the 1T services ought to have got priority onto the branch into the first place, rather than having Thameslink terminators delay everything?

Yes there was one point where every single through platform was blocked, as platforms 1, 2, 3 and 8 were blocked due to abandoned GTR trains, 4 had a GA train that was meant to terminate in platform 2/3 and another GA train terminated from the north in platform 7 (booked 8). This delayed a few trains by quite a bit and the signaller probably didn't want that to happen again

 

[Class 170101]

Suggests a lack of control of drivers by Control and being 'allowed' to disappear whilst the train is blocking a running line.

 

[TSGN Spotter]

GN between Ely and Kings Lynn seem to be cancelled due to what appears to be a signalling fault with trains either end of the single line at Downham Market and Littleport, 1T69 to start from Downham having previously been cancelled on the 1T59.

1T59 ran between Lynn and Downham on-time, however was cancelled at downham due to signalling issues(as opposed to whats showing on RTT)

 

[dk1]

Suggests a lack of control of drivers by Control and being 'allowed' to disappear whilst the train is blocking a running line.

If they are delayed and/or it’s not on their diagram then the driver has every right to disappear.

 

[bramling]

Suggests a lack of control of drivers by Control and being 'allowed' to disappear whilst the train is blocking a running line.

I definitely think this is at least part of the problem. Their whole control and crew management function just doesn’t work during disruption, for whatever reason.

I suspect part of this is that no one ever realised how much of a step-change in intensity and complexity the 2018 changes were going to be to their network, especially the GN side.

King’s Cross is quite surreal during disruption nowadays. Absolutely no sense of urgency from GTR in terms of organising operations. I was at King’s Cross last night and it seemed like everyone had given up on running a service. The only information being given out was that Cambridge passengers should go to Liverpool Street. Aside from that it felt like time was standing still.

I haven’t forgotten the 700 power issues day a few years ago either, which was one of the worst shambles I’ve ever seen. People locked in the station, people locked out, and trains departing empty despite hundreds of people waiting on the concourse.

 

[Class 170101]

If they are delayed and/or it’s not on their diagram then the driver has every right to disappear.

So are you saying a driver with a trip cancelled to wherever can just disappear and refuse to clear the line of their train / another train even if its within their hours?

 

[dk1]

So are you saying a driver with a trip cancelled to wherever can just disappear and refuse to clear the line of their train / another train even if its within their hours?

If it’s within their hours yes but not if they are due a PNB having been severely delayed. Also I don’t know many drivers who would do it after the end of their shift regardless of how much disruption caused. Some will do it if handsomely rewarded financially.

 

[Bald Rick]

If they are delayed and/or it’s not on their diagram then the driver has every right to disappear.

One would hope that a driver - having had it explained to them the consequences of leaving a train on a through line in terms of the effect on several thousand passengers - would be inclined to move the train to somewhere less critical.

 

[Horizon22]

Paddington Elizabeth line does it in 2 minutes…

Sure with 4-5 staff! I doubt Letchworth has that many but saying that I’ve still see termini do it quicker with just 1 or 2.

 

[dk1]

One would hope that a driver - having had it explained to them the consequences of leaving a train on a through line in terms of the effect on several thousand passengers - would be inclined to move the train to somewhere less critical.

Some really wouldn’t believe me. I personally couldn’t be like that but I know so many that couldn’t care less.

You have to remember that such moves are not always quick and if no safe walking route back can take a very long time. It all depends on the location.