Large towns with poor or very poor off-peak services

[thenorthern]

One thing to remember is the numbers of stations since the 1950s has declined dramatically although the number of services running has increased by quite a bit.

 

[hexagon789]

Inverness is perhaps worth a mention here. Until the introduction of the Clansman in 1974 there were just three daytime train to the Central Belt, 08.20 to Edinburgh, 11.25 to Glasgow and 16.35 with portions for both. Although the Royal Highlander departed relatively early at 19.00 there were no connections beyond Stirling. In the same period the service to Aberdeen had (I think fairly recently) been increased from five to six trains per day. A far cry from more recent service levels on both routes.

I meant to link to this earlier, but things hadn't improved hugely even 8 years later (and would be similar until at least 1987 which is I believe when the seasonal services became permanent and lasted through the winter).

Highland Main Line timetable in Tartan Taktfahrplan days (1982):

How things were (1)

Northbound 1982 timetable for the Highland Main Line. While fairly regular intervals may have been offered - XX:22 from Edinburgh, XX:35 from Glasgow; the two Edinburgh workings even have consistent timings at each intermediate station over the HML. Based on a common XX:50 path on even hours...

flic.kr

How things were (2)

Southbound 1982 timetable for the Highland Main Line. Again based on regular interval departures, with a common XX:30 slot every even hour from Inverness south, offering connections off both Far North and Aberdeen line trains. Again the number of trains outside the summer peak is limited to just...

flic.kr

 

[Magdalia]

Glenrothes in Fife - one of Scotland's five post-war new towns and the administrative centre of Fife Region, with a population of nearly 40,000 - didn't even have a station until may 1992 when Glenrothes with Thornton opened. In practical terms, the nearest staion was - and still is - Markinch, although some of the Western parts of the town may be nearer to Cardenden which, for many years in the 1970s and 1980s was only served in the morning and evening peak hours Mondays-Fridays.

Between 1975 and 1991 Markinch appeared in the PTT as Markinch for Glenrothes.

 

[Western Sunset]

I think that most of the "New Towns" initially ignored any provision for a railway station. Think Milton Keynes, for example.

 

[Falcon1200]

I think that most of the "New Towns" initially ignored any provision for a railway station. Think Milton Keynes, for example.

And Harlow, where although a station was provided, at Harlow Town, it is right on one edge of the New Town and therefore a long way from many parts of it ! Although perhaps the county boundary being just behind the railway was a factor there ?

 

[Magdalia]

And Harlow, where although a station was provided, at Harlow Town, it is right on one edge of the New Town and therefore a long way from many parts of it ! Although perhaps the county boundary being just behind the railway was a factor there ?

The original station for Harlow, prior to the development of the New Town, was what is now called Harlow Mill. It is quite close to the centre of Old Harlow.

The railway runs close to the River Stort, which delineates the Essex/Hertfordshire county boundary. Fortunately the New Town was not built on the flood plain but on higher ground to the south. Harlow Town station was built on the site of the old station called Burnt Mill.

But it is a good question as to why the centre of Harlow New Town was built so far away from the railway. It is a long walk, a similar distance to Cambridge. The disadvantage is that, from getting off the train, the walk is mostly uphill. On the other hand more than half of it is through pleasant parkland.

 

[Falcon1200]

But it is a good question as to why the centre of Harlow New Town was built so far away from the railway. It is a long walk, a similar distance to Cambridge.

The flood plain explanation makes sense, thanks.

(I know all about the walk, I spent the first two years of my railway career at Harlow Town but living the far side of Staple Tye !)

 

[Taunton]

But it is a good question as to why the centre of Harlow New Town was built so far away from the railway.

This was a feature of typical New Town design, they were seen (by their designers) as wholly self-contained "islands", houses, shops, factories, all within the town. No need to go outside. There was an equivalent aspect of their road design, which commonly facilitated journeys within the town but needed inconvenient dog-legs to get outside. The wall maps of the towns in their Development Commission offices would be drawn in complete isolation - one would have thought it was a map of the Isle of Man.

 

[Magdalia]

This was a feature of typical New Town design, they were seen (by their designers) as wholly self-contained "islands", houses, shops, factories, all within the town. No need to go outside. There was an equivalent aspect of their road design, which commonly facilitated journeys within the town but needed inconvenient dog-legs to get outside. The wall maps of the towns in their Development Commission offices would be drawn in complete isolation - one would have thought it was a map of the Isle of Man.

Thanks. And Stevenage is an interesting contrast. At Stevenage the new town centre is close to the railway, yet it only got a New Town station in 1973.

 

[Western 52]

What about Haverfordwest and Tenby? The main towns in Pembrokeshire and mainly only a two hourly service even in the tourist season.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What about Haverfordwest and Tenby? The main towns in Pembrokeshire and mainly only a two hourly service even in the tourist season.

Haverfordwest is certainly a strategically important town in West Wales, but it's not all that large is it? Population maybe 11,000.

And Tenby perhaps half that figure.

 

[nw1]

Haverfordwest is certainly a strategically important town in West Wales, but it's not all that large is it? Population maybe 11,000.

Haven't been there for a long time (visited on family holidays for three consecutive years, 1988-90) but I remember it having quite an impressive centre - a bit like Guildford, or have I misremembered? - but not so much housing. Most was up the hill on the road towards Broad Haven. It had the feel of a county town, though I suspect Pembroke is the actual county town.

Service then was also about every 2 hours, but by 2-car first-gen DMU (not a 117 as I would expect, but something else, perhaps a 108?) There were also 1 or 2 HSTs to and from London, up in the morning, down in the evening, not sure if these still exist?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I suspect Pembroke is the actual county town.

Think it is actually Haverfordwest that is the county town of Pembrokeshire.

 

[nw1]

Think it is actually Haverfordwest that is the county town of Pembrokeshire.

Ah ok, one of those cases were the county town is not the one you would expect from the county name.

Though in those days (1988-90), it was technically still Dyfed, with capital Carmarthen (according to Wikipedia). That said, the name Pembrokeshire seemed to be in very common usage as the area had a character and identity of its own - certainly when discussing the holiday, we talked of "going to Pembrokeshire".

 

[30907]

Service then was also about every 2 hours, but by 2-car first-gen DMU (not a 117 as I would expect, but something else, perhaps a 108?) There were also 1 or 2 HSTs to and from London, up in the morning, down in the evening, not sure if these still exist?

HSTs west of Carmarthen have been confined to the summer Saturday Tenby/Pembroke train for years, plus ISTR the odd Fishguard at one time. (These had previously been loco hauled, and there was also a York-Tenby on Saturdays for some summers.)

From the time through London portions of expresses were withdrawn in the (late?) 60s, trains beyond Swansea were almost all DMU as you say (Swindon 120s were used at least into the 70s), with almost nothing working further east. The exceptions were the sleeper/postal/parcels trains, 2 each way (one Bristol one London) IIRC, and at some time the passenger stock of these was used to work back to Carmarthen or Swansea.

 

[Taunton]

HSTs west of Carmarthen have been confined to the summer Saturday Tenby/Pembroke train for years, plus ISTR the odd Fishguard at one time. (These had previously been loco hauled, and there was also a York-Tenby on Saturdays for some summers.)

From the time through London portions of expresses were withdrawn in the (late?) 60s, trains beyond Swansea were almost all DMU as you say (Swindon 120s were used at least into the 70s), with almost nothing working further east. The exceptions were the sleeper/postal/parcels trains, 2 each way (one Bristol one London) IIRC, and at some time the passenger stock of these was used to work back to Carmarthen or Swansea.

The Swindon 120 dmus were indeed ubiquitous west of Swansea, from their introduction in the late 1950s until their withdrawl and replacement by a hotch-potch of low density cars from other regions, but I also recall a surprising number of services, seemingly oddball ones to no apparent pattern, with short formations of loco-hauled stock and Hymek Class 35s, at least until their end in the mid-1970s, and then with Class 47s, of which there were always a substantial and indeed surprising number west of Carmarthen used on the oil trains and various other duties, or even just standing in a siding at odd places like Whitland. I don't think the dmus got to Fishguard very much. It was actually an approach you found all across the rest of the Western Region as well.

 

[nw1]

HSTs west of Carmarthen have been confined to the summer Saturday Tenby/Pembroke train for years, plus ISTR the odd Fishguard at one time. (These had previously been loco hauled, and there was also a York-Tenby on Saturdays for some summers.)

From the time through London portions of expresses were withdrawn in the (late?) 60s, trains beyond Swansea were almost all DMU as you say (Swindon 120s were used at least into the 70s), with almost nothing working further east. The exceptions were the sleeper/postal/parcels trains, 2 each way (one Bristol one London) IIRC, and at some time the passenger stock of these was used to work back to Carmarthen or Swansea.

Interesting, it does indeed appear that there were no through services in 1982 (https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=132730db-8ad2-4152-9459-9d410b64c1ea), with an approximately two-hourly irregular frequency on the locals.

However I do distinctly remember through HST services to and from London a bit later in the 80s, 1984 I think - and these persisting throughout the remainder of the 80s. I think there was an up pair in the morning (one from Haverfordwest, the other from Milford Haven) and a down pair in the evening - or possibly just one up, one down. I definitely remember while at Reading station in the mid 80s the announcer saying that "this is the train from Haverfordwest!" at some point in the morning, and that there was also a Milford Haven service (perhaps in the evening).

The Swindon 120 dmus were indeed ubiquitous west of Swansea, from their introduction in the late 1950s until their withdrawl and replacement by a hotch-potch of low density cars from other regions, but I also recall a surprising number of services, seemingly oddball ones to no apparent pattern, with short formations of loco-hauled stock and Hymek Class 35s, at least until their end in the mid-1970s, and then with Class 47s, of which there were always a substantial and indeed surprising number west of Carmarthen used on the oil trains and various other duties, or even just standing in a siding at odd places like Whitland. I don't think the dmus got to Fishguard very much. It was actually an approach you found all across the rest of the Western Region as well.

If we're talking about unusual loco-hauled services, the 1301 Paddington to Oxford (xx01 was a regular hourly path) stopping service was one such in 1983/4. I remember seeing this and have confirmed via marshalling books that this was indeed hauled.

It then worked back from Oxford to London as a fast. In this era the Paddington-Oxfords were a mix of HSTs (mostly off peak, in-between longer distance workings) and hauled, with attendant complex if interesting diagramming.

 

[30907]

I also recall a surprising number of services, seemingly oddball ones to no apparent pattern, with short formations of loco-hauled stock and Hymek Class 35s, at least until their end in the mid-1970s, and then with Class 47s...

Yes, possibly more than the couple I mentioned which were Milford-Carmarthen and v.v.

I don't think the dmus got to Fishguard very much.

The 1970 WTT on Timetableworld has a 2005 ex Swansea and 0800 return - among other delights the down train, and all others 2100-0500, had to reverse twice to serve Carmarthen as Carmarthen Bridge box, and therefore the west curve, was closed on nights as an economy measure. We sometimes forget how restricted services could be back then.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

There'll be worse, but Bicester wasn't great either. 1977-82 era was three trains on weekdays between the 0905 and 1713 arrivals from London, stopping at all stations from South Ruislip (90 minutes for 55 miles).

On Sundays there were two trains departing London between the 0820 and 1738, roughly a train every three hours.

 

[nw1]

There'll be worse, but Bicester wasn't great either. 1977-82 era was three trains on weekdays between the 0905 and 1713 arrivals from London, stopping at all stations from South Ruislip (90 minutes for 55 miles).

On Sundays there were two trains departing London between the 0820 and 1738, roughly a train every three hours.

I guess Bicester was a relatively small market town in a pretty rural area, so perhaps a two-hourly service wasn't too bad. Isn't it relatively recently (since the coming of the M40?) that Bicester has grown?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I guess Bicester was a relatively small market town in a pretty rural area, so perhaps a two-hourly service wasn't too bad. Isn't it relatively recently (since the coming of the M40?) that Bicester has grown?

Believe the population of Bicester was just over 4,000 in 1951 and maybe 12,500 in 1971.

The M40 opened in 1991 and now the population is something like 32,500.

Not sure if there's any direct causality, but it's certainly a good working theory.

 

[nw1]

Believe the population of Bicester was just over 4,000 in 1951 and maybe 12,500 in 1971.

The M40 opened in 1991 and now the population is something like 32,500.

Not sure if there's any direct causality, but it's certainly a good working theory.

Perhaps on the same line one has to nominate High Wycombe, at least in the pre-NSE era.

A large town, perhaps a northern equivalent to Guildford (? - that's my impression of it from fleeting visits, anyhow) yet in the early-mid 80s just an hourly stopping DMU off-peak in both directions. Admittedly there was a very large increase in frequency in the peaks.

By 2008 (I mention this particular year as I have that timetable) there were of course 6 trains on the line in both directions, 2 Birmingham express, 2 semi-fast (various termination points) and 2 stopping (terminating at High Wycombe) - though oddly, perhaps, one of the two expresses didn't stop there. A huge improvement from 25 years earlier!

 

[Bevan Price]

The Swindon 120 dmus were indeed ubiquitous west of Swansea, from their introduction in the late 1950s until their withdrawl and replacement by a hotch-potch of low density cars from other regions, but I also recall a surprising number of services, seemingly oddball ones to no apparent pattern, with short formations of loco-hauled stock and Hymek Class 35s, at least until their end in the mid-1970s, and then with Class 47s, of which there were always a substantial and indeed surprising number west of Carmarthen used on the oil trains and various other duties, or even just standing in a siding at odd places like Whitland. I don't think the dmus got to Fishguard very much. It was actually an approach you found all across the rest of the Western Region as well.

Class 37 ( usually from boiler-fitted batch 37175 - 37192) also worked passenger services west of Swansea in the 1970s and early 1980s)

 

[Western 52]

Class 37 ( usually from boiler-fitted batch 37175 - 37192) also worked passenger services west of Swansea in the 1970s and early 1980s)

And some 33s too in the early 1980s.