Last train cancelled - Northern told me to pay for taxi. Are they allowed to?

[43066]

It comes back to the duty on TOCs within the NRCOT to do what they 'reasonably can'.

'Reasonably can' does not mean saying 'it's too difficult' and sitting back and leaving it to the passenger. It means putting reasonable effort in for each individual case, and only turning to the passenger if that fails.

And reasonable effort could very well mean telling people to book their own and claim back, exactly as they’ve initially done in this case. Most people would rather do that than wait hours for the TOC to book.

There is simply no practical alternative, unless you can suggest how thousands of individual journeys can be booked by a small team of TOC staff? Again, it’s easy to criticise from the comfort of an armchair, but you clearly have zero experience of how these things work in practice.

This product exists, and is used widespread by train operating companies. The company that provides this product is CMAC (as referenced above).

I’ve personally waited several hours for a CMAC taxi, booked via a TOC, during severe disruption. They’re as dependent on the vagaries of taxi availability as anyone else.

 

[skyhigh]

It comes back to the duty on TOCs within the NRCOT to do what they 'reasonably can'.

'Reasonably can' does not mean saying 'it's too difficult' and sitting back and leaving it to the passenger. It means putting reasonable effort in for each individual case, and only turning to the passenger if that fails.

I agree. And that's what happened here, no?

The TOC sourced a taxi. They warned the passenger that it might not be quick and if they were able to sort themselves out and claim back later that option was available to them. The passenger declined and was provided a taxi. If the TOC was booking a taxi in the centre of a busy city with plenty of cars available they wouldn't have bothered asking the passenger if they wanted to claim back and just got a taxi.

 

[MotCO]

I can understand the reluctance of the OP to arrange his own taxi and claim the fare back, since it is only 'someone' at the end of a telephone who has authorised this - quite easy for the TOC to deny all knowledge of this at a later date. (I accept that usually the TOCs pay up, but when you are isolated at a station, assurances given over the phone could seem vague and unreliable.) Can the person at the end of the phone issue an authorisation reference which could be quoted by the OP in his subsequent claim - this would seem to be more comforting.

 

[156421]

There is simply no practical alternative, unless you can suggest how thousands of individual journeys can be booked by a small team of TOC staff? Again, it’s easy to criticise from the comfort of an armchair, but you clearly have zero experience of how these things work in practice.

This thread refers to 1 passenger going from Dalton to Kents Bank.

 

[TUC]

And reasonable effort could very well mean telling people to book their own and claim back, exactly as they’ve done in this case. Most people would rather do that than wait hours for the TOC to book.

There is simply no practical alternative, unless you can suggest how thousands of individual journeys can be booked by a small team of TOC staff? Again, it’s easy to criticise from the comfort of an armchair, but you clearly have zero experience of how these things work in practice.

I would say you start ftom the point of recognising the duty upin the TOC and identifying what size staff team you need to fulfill that duty.

A key issue is that there is an assumption that all passengers can afford to spend £50 on a taxi and wait to be reimbursed. A way forward would be to have arrangements with taxi firms nationally whereby a unique code was sent to the passenger which, if a passenger had had to find a taxi themselves, could be given to the taxi firm for immediate reimbursement online.

 

[43066]

This thread refers to 1 passenger going from Dalton to Kents Bank.

We don’t know how many followed the advice and made their own arrangements - one train could conceivably be scores or hundreds. During mass disruption events it can be thousands, and we see the same complaints on here when TOCs inevitably can’t just magic up fleets of taxis at the drop of a hat.

I would say you start ftom the point of recognising the duty upin the TOC and identifying what size staff team you need to fulfill that duty.

No, you start from what’s possible within financial and practical constraints you’re working to. As noted above, TOCs struggle to resource taxis for their own crews, hence the step of asking people to source their own taxis and claim back is a practical and reasonable way of discharging their obligations.

A key issue is that there is an assumption that all passengers can afford to spend £50 on a taxi and wait to be reimbursed.

The assumption is (rightly) that most can. If people genuinely can’t put £50 on a credit card or similar in an emergency I’d suggest they shouldn’t be travelling in the first place. Would you go on a long car journey without any breakdown cover, or any ability to put more fuel in the tank if necessary?

A way forward would be to have arrangements with taxi firms nationally whereby a unique code was sent to the passenger which, if a passenger had had to find a taxi themselves, could be given to the taxi firm for immediate reimbursement online.

You are speculating that that would be a way forward, but it’s not necessarily a practical or realistic suggestion. How much would it cost and does the technology exist to do it? How would it help in areas where there are simply no taxis available anyway?

 

[Watershed]

I would say you start ftom the point of recognising the duty upin the TOC and identifying what size staff team you need to fulfill that duty.

Indeed. "Where [they] reasonably can" isn't subject to TOCs' whims in terms of whether or not they feel like hiring enough staff to organise alternative transport. The obligation would otherwise be entirely discretionary, which is clearly not how the clause is worded or intended.

More to the point, there is a similar obligation to provide alternative transport or accommodation under the PRO, and this is only subject to the proviso of being "physically possible", which gives a clear indication that cost isn't a valid consideration in refusing assistance.

 

[BRX]

If people genuinely can’t put £50 on a credit card or similar in an emergency I’d suggest they shouldn’t be travelling in the first place.

That's quite a statement.

 

[Starmill]

Rural taxis are rural taxis. Sometimes you just can't get one.

Taxi firms also like to pick and choose their work and won't accept being forced to prioritise railway work with the exception of some prebooked stuff moving traincrew about, especially little one horse firms with an owner driver. Even then on things like a Saturday night they'll often heavily delay or cancel for the railway work in favour of shuttling around on more lucrative local jobs.

It might solve some of the problem if you pay immediately but it's not a golden bullet.

Some TOCs used to have a good way around this which was to issue paper invoices. The taxi driver was then permitted to write in the price, up to a £100 maximum, and bring it to the ticket office for a cash payment. Clearly this fostered positivity with taxi firms whose offices were close to the railway stations which had a booking office because, it meant they could rely on timely payment (usually the following morning or the following working day morning).

Clearly there's also a small amount of risk in this, with the taxi firms chalking bills up to £100 where they previously might have charged £75 or so, but the arrangement did seem to work fairly well. I don't think it's still around very much now. Rumour has it that the local taxi firm in Yeovil were so fed up with what they saw as SWR's slow payment timescales they actually lodged the claim in county court for unpaid bills, which yielded a quick settlement.

To give some credit in these circumstances, in general, CMAC aren't a cheaper provider and in general they will be in a position to offer availability nearly anywhere you need, it's just obviously there would be a longer wait in some circumstances than others.

 

[43066]

"Where [they] reasonably can" isn't subject to TOCs' whims in terms of whether or not they feel like hiring enough staff to organise alternative transport. The obligation would otherwise be entirely discretionary, which is clearly not how the clause is worded or intended.

This is a complete non sequitur. It isn’t an absolute obligation, but neither is it “entirely discretionary”.

More to the point, there is a similar obligation to provide alternative transport or accommodation under the PRO, and this is only subject to the proviso of being "physically possible", which gives a clear indication that cost isn't a valid consideration in refusing assistance.

It often won’t be physically possible to book enough taxis. Frankly the problem is with the PRO which imposes obligations that TOCs cannot meet, hence the endless complaints along those lines on here. Perhaps the PRO should be amended to make it more realistic, as I gather the relevant legislation now has been in the EU.

That's quite a statement.

It would be foolish and irresponsible to embark on any long journey without some ability to make arrangements if things go wrong, yes. Virtually nobody does so anyway, it’s just an extreme example people trot out to try and add weight to an argument.

 

[Starmill]

That's quite a statement.

I think it's a bit of a straw man too? The objection doesn't seem to me to be about liquidity, it seems to me that the objection being raised is more about certainty of recovery. But @skyhigh has already rightfully pointed out that customer relations on the phone or help point can and will take the customer's name and address in these circumstances. As a result there is a written record of what's been suggested to refer back to later at the complaint stage, if it were to go down that route. I wouldn't expect it to though because the customer will probably get paid at the first line, as there have probably been quite a few cases of customer relations having to make this suggestion that people can arrange for their own taxi in recent weeks and months.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If people genuinely can’t put £50 on a credit card or similar in an emergency I’d suggest they shouldn’t be travelling in the first place.

That's quite a statement.

We had a similar (and quite opinionated at times)
discussion on the subject matter a couple of years ago...

Should passengers have spare money and/or travel insurance rather than expect the railway to help in disruption?

I get that it's frustrating when something happens which messes up plans, fully sympathise with that. The flip side of the coin, however, is that weather events are a fact of life, they have always happened and always will. When it happens, it's time to take some responsibility. So you believe...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[43066]

As a result there is a written record of what's been suggested to refer back to later at the complaint stage, if it were to go down that route. I wouldn't expect it to though because the customer will probably get paid at the first line, as there have probably been quite a few cases of customer relations having to make this suggestion that people can arrange for their own taxi in recent weeks and months.

This is true, of course, but likely still wouldn't satisfy the OP, as they themselves wouldn’t be in possession of written confirmation prior to fronting the cost of the taxi.

 

[BRX]

It would be foolish and irresponsible to embark on any long journey without some ability to make arrangements if things go wrong, yes. Virtually nobody does so anyway, it’s just an extreme example people trot out to try and add weight to an argument.

This isn't only relevant to long journeys though. There are plenty of journeys that might cost a few pounds to make by public transport but become very expensive if done by taxi.

And there are people who might not have £50 "spare" all the time, whether or not they are able to get a credit card, and even if they have it "spare" they might fear losing it if they are unable to reclaim it.

 

[lfc84]

This isn't only relevant to long journeys though. There are plenty of journeys that might cost a few pounds to make by public transport but become very expensive if done by taxi.

And there are people who might not have £50 "spare" all the time, whether or not they are able to get a credit card, and even if they have it "spare" they might fear losing it if they are unable to reclaim it.

If someone puts it on a credit card another drawback is that the reimbursement may take longer than the interest free period on the card (up to 56 days depending on where the transaction is in relation the next bil)

 

[TUC]

The assumption is (rightly) that most can. If people genuinely can’t put £50 on a credit card or similar in an emergency I’d suggest they shouldn’t be travelling in the first place. Would you go on a long car journey without any breakdown cover, or any ability to put more fuel in the tank if necessary?

I don't think you understand how much time peopke live on a 'just about managing' basis from month to month. Are you really saying that poorer people should not travel on long journeys?

In any event, as pointed out above, evrn short journeys, when servixes are cancelled, can result in large taxi fares.

 

[43066]

This isn't only relevant to long journeys though. There are plenty of journeys that might cost a few pounds to make by public transport but become very expensive if done by taxi.

And there are people who might not have £50 "spare" all the time, whether or not they are able to get a credit card, and even if they have it "spare" they might fear losing it if they are unable to reclaim it.

Well, okay. But there will still be very, very few people in this situation and I’d suggest the railway as a subsidised public transport system can’t be, and indeed isn’t, designed around extreme outliers. If you can’t at least access funds temporarily you will potentially wait a long time for a taxi to be booked, and might run the risk of being stranded overnight somewhere.

Clearly the OP’s experience will be more typical; a taxi was eventually provided, albeit they might have got to where they were going quicker by fronting the cost and reclaiming.

I don't think you understand how much time peopke live on a 'just about managing' basis from month to month. Are you really saying that poorer people should not travel on long journeys?

Fairly obviously I’m saying they should consider whether they can afford to take the train and, in the event of disruption, they might end up needing to wait a lot longer for a taxi if they can’t pay for one and claim back when advised to do so. “Just about managing” or being “poorer” also isn’t the same as being completely unable to lay your hands on £50 in an emergency which suggests someone in an extreme crisis/incapable of budgeting.

 

[chris53]

That's quite a statement.

Presumably poor people aren't allowed to travel

 

[Travelmonkey]

It is slightly worrying that some may think there is a magic money pot laying around, I know when I was at university EMR canceled the last direct train to Warrington so I tweeted them and asked what to do and got the next train that got me as far as Manchester and from there a taxi back to Warrington. Not ideal and a £65 bill for EMR I know I certainly wouldn't have been able to cough up for a cab that far out on my own, I do wonder now that I book passenger assist on my journeys if that would change my rankings in the prioritys as a vanurable disabled adult.

 

[randyrippley]

There's an aspect of this that you're all missing: the actual practicality of getting a taxi to come out to Dalton and then do the job.
Nearest taxis are in Barrow and will be busy. They're certainly unlikely to come out to Dalton to get a fare and then drive another 20 miles away from their operating area when they can earn more just running around town.
The fact that Northern's booking agent could only source a car from Morecambe/Heysham tells you how difficult it was. That's from 45 miles away. Presumably they went through a list of more local companies until they found one who said "yes". Relatively easy to do in an office. Rather hard to do if stuck out on a platform with no list trying to do it by phone. You need good reception, good battery and a phone with internet provision, none of which are guaranteed. And there's the risk that you may be competing with other passengers for the one or two taxis that were actually available.
The expectation that a passenger stuck at a rural location which at the best of times feels like the back end of the universe is going to be able to just call up a taxi late at night is an absolute total nonsense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The expectation that a passenger stuck at a rural location which at the best of times feels like the back end of the universe is going to be able to just call up a taxi late at night is an absolute total nonsense.

Dalton isn't rural, it's in effect an outlying suburb of a significantly sized town in which Uber works. I suspect the OP would have been able to get an Uber (though whether they'd have been willing to go that far is another question).

 

[skyhigh]

Dalton isn't rural, it's in effect an outlying suburb of a significantly sized town in which Uber works. I suspect the OP would have been able to get an Uber (though whether they'd have been willing to go that far is another question).

Looking now, the Uber app specifies "longer wait", which in my experience generally means there are no cars available and no guarantee a booking will be fulfilled.

 

[TUC]

Dalton isn't rural, it's in effect an outlying suburb of a significantly sized town in which Uber works. I suspect the OP would have been able to get an Uber (though whether they'd have been willing to go that far is another question).

Given that Uber is displaying a fare, one assumes that would be willing to go that far.

(Incidentally, the fact that Uber's app does readily show available cars and fares illustrates that the argument that having an app to handle such centrally by a TOC would be too difficult does not hold water. All that is needed is a (possibly separately branded) version of such an app.)

 

[LowLevel]

Given that Uber is displaying a fare, one assumes that would be willing to go that far.

(Incidentally, the fact that Uber's app does readily show available cars and fares illustrates that the argument that having an app to handle such centrally by a TOC would be too difficult does not hold water. All that is needed is a (possibly separately branded) version of such an app.)

Not unusual for Uber to show a fare and cars and then to just sit there not ever actually achieving allocating the job to a driver - and that's in a big city like Sheffield.

 

[MrJeeves]

not ever actually achieving allocating the job to a driver

It's more that the drivers decline the job because they don't see the worth in doing it.

 

[Starmill]

Given that Uber is displaying a fare, one assumes that would be willing to go that far.

Sadly that's very unlikely, as others have said. The app will give you any old price, but that explicitly doesn't mean anyone will be available.

 

[skyhigh]

(Incidentally, the fact that Uber's app does readily show available cars and fares illustrates that the argument that having an app to handle such centrally by a TOC would be too difficult does not hold water. All that is needed is a (possibly separately branded) version of such an app.)

As you've been told, that is essentially what CMAC is.

And Uber is a CMAC supplier, they will be used when available.

 

[Mountain Man]

In the age of the internet, it's not difficult for TOCs to quickly identify a range of taxi firms in any part of the country. It's also perfectly possible to set up a scheme that taxi firms across the country could be invited to voluntarily join whereby the TOCs have an app which quickly identifies the firm with the nearest taxi available, the staff member on duty authorises the journey, and it automatically pays the taxi firm as soon as the journey is completed.. It just takes some time and focus to set up.

You still need a taxi driver willing to accept the job. Dalton to Kent's Bank would be an unattractive job at any time of the day, never mind late at night. You can have the taxi firms, but you still need the drivers

I would say you start ftom the point of recognising the duty upin the TOC and identifying what size staff team you need to fulfill that duty.

So you are advocating a standing army ready to book taxis?

 

[Starmill]

So you are advocating a standing army ready to book taxis?

A very much more modest version of this kind of thing might actually be cheaper than current arrangements with the likes of CMAC, Transport UK rail replacement, Arriva Road Transport and First Travel Solutions (no doubt there's a handful more such as Stagecoach companies). I've previously suggested a small fleet of basic dealer-spec small buses and minivans to be leased from operators who have existing depot space which is very close to major rail interchanges and terminals. Drivers could even be offered a TOC role on Friday - Sunday contracts, say, but only as bus driver / replacement bus customer care roles. It may actually save a bit of money in the long term and it would also drive up standards because it would allow for far better customer care in disruption and also allow for bus GPS to integrate into DARWIN. But of course such ideas are slightly risky so aren't under any kind of consideration in the current environment.

 

[randyrippley]

As you've been told, that is essentially what CMAC is.

And Uber is a CMAC supplier, they will be used when available.

And Uber clearly were not available on this particular night, nor seemingly any other local taxis.
Or maybe simply not available for this job due to its location and destination

You still need a taxi driver willing to accept the job. Dalton to Kent's Bank would be an unattractive job at any time of the day, never mind late at night. You can have the taxi firms, but you still need the drivers

Exactly