Last train of the night not held at Woking. Why would they do this?

[infobleep]

What would be a reason for not holding the last train of the night so that people off a delayed connection can catch it?

Do the goverment pick uo the bill for the resulting taxis?

This evening I got to Surbuton and was going to Guildford with friends. I had a choice of the 0:33 going to Basingstoke or the 0:46 to Woking. The 0:33 was faster and would get into Woking at at 0:51, where as the 0:46 would get in at 0:10.

We settled on the 0:46 as less hanging around at Woking. This also meant I could use the loo at Surbiton.

There was a 6 minute connection at Woking to the 0:16 to Guildford. The 0:16 was the last train of the night. The train from Surbtion departed Waterloo on time but by the time it got to Woking it was 10 minutes late, partly as we had been pathed into platform 2 at West Byfleet, rather than platform 3 as usual. The guard didn't know why and said it added delay as we had to cross the points.

The minimum connection time at Woking is 5 minutes and we should have had 6 minutes but ended up missing the train by 4 minutes.

Now I thought they held the last train of the night but tonight not so.

A member of staff advised us to get a taxi and claim baxk the costs. I did look at the Rail Air Coach but nothing running this late from what I could see.

So ended up having to get a taxi and will have to claim the costs back. It was an evening our return too, so not one of the more expensive tickets either.

If I'm feeling really demanding, there is delay repay at 12.5%, as got back 21 minutes late. I probably won't claim that in this case. Its more the taxi fare I will ask for.

 

[rmt4ever]

What would be a reason for not holding the last train of the night so that people off a delayed connection can catch it?

Do the goverment pick uo the bill for the resulting taxis?

This evening I got to Surbuton and was going to Guildford with friends. I had a choice of the 0:33 going to Basingstoke or the 0:46 to Woking. The 0:33 was faster and would get into Woking at at 0:51, where as the 0:46 would get in at 0:10.

We settled on the 0:46 as less hanging around at Woking. This also meant I could use the loo at Surbiton.

There was a 6 minute connection at Woking to the 0:16 to Guildford. The 0:16 was the last train of the night. The train from Surbtion departed Waterloo on time but by the time it got to Woking it was 10 minutes late, partly as we had been pathed into platform 2 at West Byfleet, rather than platform 3 as usual. The guard didn't know why and said it added delay as we had to cross the points.

The minimum connection time at Woking is 5 minutes and we should have had 6 minutes but ended up missing the train by 4 minutes.

Now I thought they held the last train of the night but tonight not so.

A member of staff advised us to get a taxi and claim baxk the costs. I did look at the Rail Air Coach but nothing running this late from what I could see.

So ended up having to get a taxi and will have to claim the costs back. It was an evening our return too, so not one of the more expensive tickets either.

If I'm feeling really demanding, there is delay repay at 12.5%, as got back 21 minutes late. I probably won't claim that in this case. Its more the taxi fare I will ask for.

It is outrageous that they make you pay the taxi then claim it. They should have paid. What if you are not in a position financially to outlay the cab fare? it is just plain wrong

 

[Deafdoggie]

It is outrageous that they make you pay the taxi then claim it. They should have paid. What if you are not in a position financially to outlay the cab fare? it is just plain wrong

But that is the railways idea of good customer service & attracting new custom. To be fair, they offered to refund the taxi fare straight away, which is expectionally good service by their standards. Obviously if they do or not is a different matter.

Do the goverment pick uo the bill for the resulting taxis?

Yes. Some argue this is why we're in this mess. Some argue whilst we're in this mess they shouldn't until the railways get their act together.

 

[JonathanH]

What would be a reason for not holding the last train of the night so that people off a delayed connection can catch it?

How many people apart from your group were making the connection?

 

[Somewhere]

The crew may be unwilling to work the overtime.
There may be an engineering possession waiting to go on as soon as the train cleared
There may be any number of reasons why a connection isn't held

 

[Kilopylae]

The crew may be unwilling to work the overtime.
There may be an engineering possession waiting to go on as soon as the train cleared
There may be any number of reasons why a connection isn't held

They should explain this to the passengers - no reason not to.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I have attempted to make the same connection as the OP once, and failed, just like the OP. So now I avoid that train as much as possible.

The culprit is the 0020 departure from Waterloo, which becomes the 0046 from Surbiton mentioned by the OP. Despite being set down only for many stops, it always loses time. It's not a train which is rammed - there will be plenty of seats at the front of the train. I suspect it's the 450 door cycle time as this train is always a 450.

 

[Kite159]

But that is the railways idea of good customer service & attracting new custom. To be fair, they offered to refund the taxi fare straight away, which is expectionally good service by their standards. Obviously if they do or not is a different matter.

Yes. Some argue this is why we're in this mess. Some argue whilst we're in this mess they shouldn't until the railways get their act together.

However knowing SWR it will probably be a fight to get the taxi fare back unless the OP got something in writing from the member of staff.

 

[JonathanH]

The culprit is the 0020 departure from Waterloo, which becomes the 0046 from Surbiton mentioned by the OP. Despite being set down only for many stops, it always loses time. It's not a train which is rammed - there will be plenty of seats at the front of the train. I suspect it's the 450 door cycle time as this train is always a 450.

It looks as if something was up last night as the final train on the Virginia Water route arrived at Woking about 35 minutes late behind the aforementioned 0020 from Waterloo.

 

[30907]

The crew may be unwilling to work the overtime.
There may be an engineering possession waiting to go on as soon as the train cleared
There may be any number of reasons why a connection isn't held

Or it may be simply that delaying a busy(?) train 10min for a small(?) number of passengers isn't the best all-round option. Provided of course that alternativer arrangements are offered.

 

[Deafdoggie]

They should explain this to the passengers - no reason not to.

But that would be customer service, something the railways don't do. Far better to put people off ever travelling by train again.

 

[infobleep]

How many people apart from your group were making the connection?

No idea as I didn't hang around to find out. I was chatting to the guard on the train as we pulled in.

I didn't seek the guard out in advance as I just thought, its the last connection of the night and they would hold it.

I've now learn't they don't always do this. No idea if the guard could have persuaded them to hold it.

I have attempted to make the same connection as the OP once, and failed, just like the OP. So now I avoid that train as much as possible.

The culprit is the 0020 departure from Waterloo, which becomes the 0046 from Surbiton mentioned by the OP. Despite being set down only for many stops, it always loses time. It's not a train which is rammed - there will be plenty of seats at the front of the train. I suspect it's the 450 door cycle time as this train is always a 450.

If the train is never going to make the connection then perhaps they should retime it.

However knowing SWR it will probably be a fight to get the taxi fare back unless the OP got something in writing from the member of staff.

Well I will be putting in ny claim this evening and see what they say. I took screenshot of real time trains, as National Rail Enquiries was beyond midnight so the app doesn't allow you to go back in time.

Or it may be simply that delaying a busy(?) train 10min for a small(?) number of passengers isn't the best all-round option. Provided of course that alternativer arrangements are offered.

The train to Guildford is the last train of the night and there is no connection off it.

No idea if there was an overnight procession but there was a train to Southampton through Woking at 1:42.

 

[ChrisC]

A member of staff advised us to get a taxi and claim baxk the costs. I did look at the Rail Air Coach but nothing running this late from what I could see.

So ended up having to get a taxi and will have to claim the costs back. It was an evening our return too, so not one of the more expensive tickets either.

I didn’t realise that passengers in this situation these days had to actually organise their own taxi, pay for it, and then put in a claim to get the costs back. I always thought that it was the responsibility of railway station staff to do this for you. It’s only ever happened to me once and that was around 20 years ago. I reported being stranded because the last train had departed and the booking office staff ordered me a taxi which was all paid for. If it was an unstaffed station I suppose things might have been different.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I didn’t realise that passengers in this situation these days had to actually organise their own taxi, pay for it, and then put in a claim to get the costs back. I always thought that it was the responsibility of railway station staff to do this for you. It’s only ever happened to me once and that was around 20 years ago. I reported being stranded because the last train had departed and the booking office staff ordered me a taxi which was all paid for. If it was an unstaffed station I suppose things might have been different.

In theory that is what happens still. But the railways realised that it could be mistaken for good customer service & might even attract people to rail, so they often make you pay first now then make you fight to get your money back. That way less people are likely to use trains, which makes it easier for them. The taxpayer bails them out if there are people on the trains or not, so why attract people?

 

[Taunton]

There may be an engineering possession waiting to go on as soon as the train cleared
There may be any number of reasons why a connection isn't held

It's funny, we have had various complaints from civils staff here over time that their possessions are delayed being started because they are waiting for some delayed train to pass, especially where it is a trivial operation like an ECS. It seems they just have to suck it up then.

But delayed for passengers from a missed connection - no.

I suspect the real culprit is reporting On Time trains to the DfT (and for which Roger Ford's Golden Whistles, which works off the official stats, also has to take some blame). Why have two late trains reported against you when you can get away with one? The stats don't count your customers left on cold, dark, strange stations.

 

[Somewhere]

It's funny, we have had various complaints from civils staff here over time that their possessions are delayed being started because they are waiting for some delayed train to pass, especially where it is a trivial operation like an ECS. It seems they just have to suck it up then.

But delayed for passengers from a missed connection - no.

I suspect the real culprit is reporting On Time trains to the DfT (and for which Roger Ford's Golden Whistles, which works off the official stats, also has to take some blame). Why have two late trains reported against you when you can get away with one? The stats don't count your customers left on cold, dark, strange stations.

An ECS isn't a trivial operation. What are you going to do with the stock and crew if its trapped?
If you know a late running passenger train is going to cause a delay to a ECS, then curtail the passenger train and put it away. If something happens after its too late, then its too late

 

[Djminisite06]

In theory that is what happens still. But the railways realised that it could be mistaken for good customer service & might even attract people to rail, so they often make you pay first now then make you fight to get your money back. That way less people are likely to use trains, which makes it easier for them. The taxpayer bails them out if there are people on the trains or not, so why attract people?

LNER, the few times they've organised taxis at Newcastle, have said that if you want to do your own thing and book one to claim it back afterwards, otherwise they'll book one themselves for you, but it'll take longer.

 

[nanstallon]

I don't trust the railway to refund a taxi fare. Frankly, I try to avoid making any rail journey which relies on connections. Because of unreliability on my local branch line, I now catch a bus to the nearest main line station. i appreciate that this option is not always available to everyone.

 

[Taunton]

An ECS isn't a trivial operation. What are you going to do with the ... crew if its trapped?

Maybe the crew should be told to organise themselves a taxi and claim it back ...

 

[pompeyfan]

There’s a lot of conspiracy and just a lot of untruths in this thread.

Did the OP get the attention of the guard to say they were hoping to make the connection? With enough warning the connection could and should have been held, but it’s unrealistic for every member of staff (from the gate line and the cleaners up to the MD) to know every connection at every location. Ideally station staff should have noticed the late running inbound trains and asked for a hold, but Woking station is skeleton staffed overnight and it’s entirely reasonable they were doing other things like security checks or assisting other passengers. It’s also not realistic for the crew on the Guildford service to know they provided a connection.

In regards to organising a taxi, yes the railway as a business should have done that, with the OP being directed to a help point to arrange the taxi, however in the early hours of Saturday and Sunday morning, it could take an absolute age for a taxi to be resourced, and it would probably be quicker for the OP to arrange a taxi themselves and claim back if they had the funds available to do so.

I will admit that there is room for improvement in terms of policy, procedure and staffing in a perfect world, more station staff to notice what’s going on, give station staff the freedom to use taxi dockets again, give station staff the authority to hold trains as they see fit (and the entire can of worms that comes with that!), but it’s a bit silly to go on a witch hunt.

In regards to crew organising their own taxis, it’s usually the resource manager that books the taxi, and the business pays for it, but I’ve seen and heard of drivers and guards stranded 60+ miles away from their home depot and having no choice but to fork out significant amounts for a taxi or hotel, before having to submit a claim and maybe getting it back in their next pay packet.

 

[Deafdoggie]

it’s a bit silly to go on a witch hunt.

In regards to crew organising their own taxis, it’s usually the resource manager that books the taxi, and the business pays for it, but I’ve seen and heard of drivers and guards stranded 60+ miles away from their home depot and having no choice but to fork out significant amounts for a taxi or hotel, before having to submit a claim and maybe getting it back in their next pay packet.

An it's even sillier to say the crew of the last train of the night don't know they provide a connection. Its not a witch hunt, it's just complete & total incompetence by the railway.

You say staff having to fork out considerable sums for a taxi as if it's a bad thing, but happily say customers should do that. Well, here's a radical thought...they could just run the trains they are supposed to!

 

[yorkie]

I'm just back from Switzerland; this thread serves as a reminder of how our railways are run very differently indeed.

Do the goverment pick uo the bill for the resulting taxis?

Taxpayers will be paying, yes.

I suspect the real culprit is reporting On Time trains to the DfT (and for which Roger Ford's Golden Whistles, which works off the official stats, also has to take some blame). Why have two late trains reported against you when you can get away with one? The stats don't count your customers left on cold, dark, strange stations.

It does look, to an outside observer, that the current system is based around meaningless stats than actually providing the best service.

You really notice the difference when you go to other countries who have a very different outlook.

 

[pompeyfan]

An it's even sillier to say the crew of the last train of the night don't know they provide a connection. Its not a witch hunt, it's just complete & total incompetence by the railway.

You say staff having to fork out considerable sums for a taxi as if it's a bad thing, but happily say customers should do that. Well, here's a radical thought...they could just run the trains they are supposed to!

I don’t appreciate the tone of your response, but I will respond in a more civilised way.

It’s not reasonable to expect crew to know each and every connection and the times of the last trains, if they do know it’s a bonus, but it’s not a realistic expectation for the crew to know that they were the last train of the night, and that there was a train approaching late that may or may not have passengers for their service.

I didn’t say passengers should do it, I said it would probably expedite the whole thing if they had the funds available. By the book the passenger should have been directed to a help point so a taxi booking should be generated, but at that time of the day there are probably very few private hire cars available that their taxi provider had a contract with.

 

[Kilopylae]

it’s not a realistic expectation for the crew to know that they were the last train of the night

I mean, it sort of is. At least from an outsider's perspective it seems like it should be. There's only going to be one 'last train' for any given route (or one last stopper and a later fast) - would it be so hard for the crew to be told ?

 

[pompeyfan]

I mean, it sort of is. At least from an outsider's perspective it seems like it should be. There's only going to be one 'last train' for any given route (or one last stopper and a later fast) - would it be so hard for the crew to be told ?

Crew get given their diagrams and that’s all they really need to know, like I say it’s a bonus if they are aware they’re the last train of the night but it’s not an expectation. Short of putting a note on their diagrams that they’re the last train of the night from X - Y calling at ABCD there’s no real way of communicating it, but it would be messy to show, and the unions are pushing for more clarity on diagrams, not less.

I would put the onus on station staff, but I also recognise they’re short of staff and busy, and may not have the resources late at night to diligently watch a computer screen for arrivals and departures and trying to work out every possible connection. Maybe that’s what control should be doing, but again if they’re busy it’s easy to be missed.

 

[Taunton]

Crew get given their diagrams and that’s all they really need to know, like I say it’s a bonus if they are aware they’re the last train of the night but it’s not an expectation.

Guards I have known in the past commonly understood all this (and then some) off the top of their head.

Whatever happened to the mantra that they are there for, as a key aspect, "customer service"?

 

[pompeyfan]

Guards I have known in the past commonly understood all this (and then some) off the top of their head.

Whatever happened to the mantra that they are there for, as a key aspect, "customer service"?

Having looked at RTT, I can see the 0116 from Woking (1F83) comes from Waterloo into platform 5, the train the OP was on (2F77), is booked into 3 and terminates. At the time platform 4 was also occupied by the late running 1S77.

Are we suggesting the crew of 1F83 (which in fairness, were probably aware they were the last train of the night), should have been watching the arrival screens for 2F77 (and any other arrivals due around that time) and then refused to move the train?

I’m not sure what a sensible answer is, delays happen, how does the industry mitigate? how do you maintain every possible connection for the last train of the night for every station without then knocking any other possible connection?

 

[ChrisC]

I don't trust the railway to refund a taxi fare. Frankly, I try to avoid making any rail journey which relies on connections. Because of unreliability on my local branch line, I now catch a bus to the nearest main line station. i appreciate that this option is not always available to everyone.

I also often catch a bus to the nearest mainline station, but just to be on the safe side will get the bus one hour before the one I really need, just in case the bus is cancelled. I never rely on late night last trains and on longer journeys where a number of connections are required always start out early so that the last part of the journey is not on last trains with a tight connection. It could be seen as being over cautious but I think it’s more a reflection on the unreliable and uncoordinated transport system of this country.

 

[RHolmes]

Guards I have known in the past commonly understood all this (and then some) off the top of their head.

Whatever happened to the mantra that they are there for, as a key aspect, "customer service"?

Customer service isn’t having an encyclopaedic knowledge of train running times for every route a station that crosses their path. It isn’t taught in the training school, the timetable frequently changes, and isn’t part of route learning requirements. The focus for the guard is their own train.

It took me around two years to realise that one of the trains I regularly work unofficially connects to the last train of another operator at Selby station. How did I learn this? By my train having a maintenance fault, running 30
minutes late and 18 of the 20 passengers onboard completely missing their connection.

I’m quite savvy in regards to the network I cover in terms of train times, platforms and connections. However, I couldn’t tell you EVERY single one

 

[Taunton]

I’m not sure what a sensible answer is, delays happen, how does the industry mitigate? how do you maintain every possible connection for the last train of the night for every station without then knocking any other possible connection?

Ask London Underground. They publish in their Working Timetable details of all "last train" connections at each relevant point.