Leap Card zone extension in Ireland.

[dubscottie]

Got info today that from Mon 28th April, Leap card zones will be extended to Drogheda, Wicklow, Enfield and Newbridge. €7.50 maximum fare.
New zone based system coming in to cover bus, Luas & rail.
That means you could travel from Drogheda to Wicklow for €7.50 as we understand it. I don't have much more than that until the NTA update us.
That is about 60 km for €7.50. €3.75 if you are under 25.

 

[Chriso]

Yes I have just enjoyed unlimited public transport for £5.50 per day in Victoria, Aus

It’s sole destroying to come home and get robbed due to awful & weak government policy

 

[AlastairFraser]

Got info today that from Mon 28th April, Leap card zones will be extended to Drogheda, Wicklow, Enfield and Newbridge. €7.50 maximum fare.
New zone based system coming in to cover bus, Luas & rail.
That means you could travel from Drogheda to Wicklow for €7.50 as we understand it. I don't have much more than that until the NTA update us.
That is about 60 km for €7.50. €3.75 if you are under 25.

What's happening to the Short Hop Zone capping?

 

[dubscottie]

What's happening to the Short Hop Zone capping?

Capping should still be in place in some form. The info I have is (in typical NTA style) brief.
There will be capping per zone as I understand it. The short hop zone will be replaced, but still exist in a new form.
Again, the exact structure hasn't been provided to us but there may be an increase in some shorter fares.
The issue of people using leap cards on the Belfast trains to get to/from Drogheda hasn't been clarified either. We suspect its a huge no,no.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Capping should still be in place in some form. The info I have is (in typical NTA style) brief.
There will be capping per zone as I understand it. The short hop zone will be replaced, but still exist in a new form.
Again, the exact structure hasn't been provided to us but there may be an increase in some shorter fares.
The issue of people using leap cards on the Belfast trains to get to/from Drogheda hasn't been clarified either. We suspect its a huge no,no.

It's good to hear that capping will still exist, but preventing people from using certain trains with the Leap sounds like a terrible idea, to be honest. The simplicity of the Leap is probably the best thing about it, and the much welcomed extension on IE services shouldn't be marred by some sort of service restrictions.

 

[zwk500]

It's good to hear that capping will still exist, but preventing people from using certain trains with the Leap sounds like a terrible idea, to be honest. The simplicity of the Leap is probably the best thing about it, and the much welcomed extension on IE services shouldn't be marred by some sort of service restrictions.

The Enterprise is a joint operation with Translink/Northern Ireland railways, so is slightly different to other IE services. Having 1 train per hour that runs internationally, and is clearly marketed and operated as a distinct intercity/premium train is not the most onerous of service restrictions for a commuter PAYG area.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The Enterprise is a joint operation with Translink/Northern Ireland railways, so is slightly different to other IE services. Having 1 train per hour that runs internationally, and is clearly marketed and operated as a distinct intercity/premium train is not the most onerous of service restrictions for a commuter PAYG area.

Although you can use your iLink smartcard on the Enterprise as far as Newry, so it would make no sense to introduce restrictions on the other side of the border.

 

[Flying Snail]

Although you can use your iLink smartcard on the Enterprise as far as Newry, so it would make no sense to introduce restrictions on the other side of the border.

That is not a reasonable comparison, Newry gets no alternative service to Enterprise bar a handful of peak services.

Including Drogheda in the Leap zones is likely to considerably increase demand, of course people will prefer to use the fast trains so the real possibility that Enterprise services will be overcrowded with Dublin - Drogheda passengers to the detriment of those traveling longer distances needs to be considered.

 

[berneyarms]

What's happening to the Short Hop Zone capping?

LEAP capping remains in place, and at a lower price for the Dublin City Zone (which is slightly reduced in size for rail), but there are a new series of zones that cover the Greater Dublin Area.

Capping should still be in place in some form. The info I have is (in typical NTA style) brief.
There will be capping per zone as I understand it. The short hop zone will be replaced, but still exist in a new form.
Again, the exact structure hasn't been provided to us but there may be an increase in some shorter fares.
The issue of people using leap cards on the Belfast trains to get to/from Drogheda hasn't been clarified either. We suspect it’s a huge no,no.

All of the information about the fare zones has been public knowledge in detail since the fares determination report was published in January last year.

Loading…

www.nationaltransport.ie

The taxsaver office prepared the document below:

Loading…

www.taxsaver.ie

 

[stadler]

That is not a reasonable comparison, Newry gets no alternative service to Enterprise bar a handful of peak services.

Including Drogheda in the Leap zones is likely to considerably increase demand, of course people will prefer to use the fast trains so the real possibility that Enterprise services will be overcrowded with Dublin - Drogheda passengers to the detriment of those traveling longer distances needs to be considered.

You can use ordinary Translink tickets and Translink smartcards from Belfast to Portadown or from Portadown to Belfast and they have an every thirty minutes stopping domestic service. I would say that is a reasonable comparison. Excluding the use of Enterprise services on one side of the border but treating them as ordinary services on the other side of the border just seems bonkers. If trains get more crowded then they need to add more carriages rather than restrict ticketing.

 

[berneyarms]

That is not a reasonable comparison, Newry gets no alternative service to Enterprise bar a handful of peak services.

Including Drogheda in the Leap zones is likely to considerably increase demand, of course people will prefer to use the fast trains so the real possibility that Enterprise services will be overcrowded with Dublin - Drogheda passengers to the detriment of those traveling longer distances needs to be considered.

These changes with the introduction of the new zonal structure, while welcome from a fares perspective, certainly have the potential to cause major problems for the railway from a capacity perspective - it could see large numbers switching to the railway from stations further out where the fares will be significantly cheaper, with no real ability to deal with such increases in passenger numbers.

You can use ordinary Translink tickets and Translink smartcards from Belfast to Portadown or from Portadown to Belfast and they have an every thirty minutes stopping domestic service. I would say that is a reasonable comparison. Excluding the use of Enterprise services on one side of the border but treating them as ordinary services on the other side of the border just seems bonkers. If trains get more crowded then they need to add more carriages rather than restrict ticketing.

There aren’t any spare carriages to add to trains.

 

[stadler]

These changes with the introduction of the new zonal structure, while welcome from a fares perspective, certainly have the potential to cause major problems for the railway from a capacity perspective - it could see large numbers switching to the railway from stations further out where the fares will be significantly cheaper, with no real ability to deal with such increases in passenger numbers.


There aren’t any spare carriages to add to trains.

Irish Rail could put all of their 2700 back in to service which would release many 22000 to extend existing services. It is so ridiculous that these modern trains have been sitting out of service for so long. Or simply order some more 22000 carriages or units. I seem to recall that some new 22000 carriages have just been delivered so they could order more if necessary. Restricting ticketing should not be done to prevent overcrowding. There are other ways of solving it.

 

[berneyarms]

Irish Rail could put all of their 2700 back in to service which would release many 22000 to extend existing services. It is so ridiculous that these modern trains have been sitting out of service for so long. Or simply order some more 22000 carriages or units. I seem to recall that some new 22000 carriages have just been delivered so they could order more if necessary. Restricting ticketing should not be done to prevent overcrowding. There are other ways of solving it.

Neither of those are realistic, and even if they were would take years to process. The capacity problem is potentially going to happen in a matter of months.

The DART+ fleet order is the only fleet order that’s going to happen in the short term and the BEMUs are like for like replacement of the 29k sets on the northern line.

In any case there has been no formal suggestion anywhere of restricting access to the Enterprise - that’s only the thoughts of a random employee.

The Enterprise is a joint operation with Translink/Northern Ireland railways, so is slightly different to other IE services. Having 1 train per hour that runs internationally, and is clearly marketed and operated as a distinct intercity/premium train is not the most onerous of service restrictions for a commuter PAYG area.

Removing access to the Enterprise for Connolly / Drogheda passengers would cause mayhem on the local trains on the route many of which are already nearing full capacity at peak times.

I don’t see it as being an option.

 

[zwk500]

Removing access to the Enterprise for Connolly / Drogheda passengers would cause mayhem on the local trains on the route many of which are already nearing full capacity at peak times.

I don’t see it as being an option.

I was not suggesting banning passengers by making Drogheda a Pick-up/drop-off only stop, but just that it continued to command the premium fare for the non-stop journey.

 

[AlastairFraser]

LEAP capping remains in place, and at a lower price for the Dublin City Zone (which is slightly reduced in size for rail), but there are a new series of zones that cover the Greater Dublin Area.

Thank you for the document. Dublin City Zone is practically no different from the old Short Hop Zone anyway, and the new zones are warmly welcomed from my perspective.

That is not a reasonable comparison, Newry gets no alternative service to Enterprise bar a handful of peak services.

Including Drogheda in the Leap zones is likely to considerably increase demand, of course people will prefer to use the fast trains so the real possibility that Enterprise services will be overcrowded with Dublin - Drogheda passengers to the detriment of those traveling longer distances needs to be considered.

It's not just Newry though; as another member has highlighted Portadown gets more frequent service and you can use the iLink on the Enterprise to Portadown without any issues (I have done so myself actually).

I take your point about overcrowding - perhaps IE could introduce some extra fast trains limited stop Drogheda to Dublin in the peak to avoid this happening then, and off-peak demand Drogheda to Dublin shouldn't be too overwhelming to cause issue on the Enterprise with overcrowding.

 

[berneyarms]

I was not suggesting banning passengers by making Drogheda a Pick-up/drop-off only stop, but just that it continued to command the premium fare for the non-stop journey.

That would be next to near impossible to enforce to be honest - how would you stop people with LEAP cards from boarding the Enterprise (especially at peak times) at Drogheda for a start once it comes into operation there - anyone can access all platforms once they are through the gate line.

There are only one gate line at Connolly too.

Thank you for the document. Dublin City Zone is practically no different from the old Short Hop Zone anyway, and the new zones are warmly welcomed from my perspective.

It's not just Newry though; as another member has highlighted Portadown gets more frequent service and you can use the iLink on the Enterprise to Portadown without any issues (I have done so myself actually).

I take your point about overcrowding - perhaps IE could introduce some extra fast trains limited stop Drogheda to Dublin in the peak to avoid this happening then, and off-peak demand Drogheda to Dublin shouldn't be too overwhelming to cause issue on the Enterprise with overcrowding.

Not a hope of extra trains. There’s neither the paths nor the rolling stock.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not a hope of extra trains. There’s neither the paths nor the rolling stock.

Fair enough

 

[dubscottie]

That would be next to near impossible to enforce to be honest - how would you stop people with LEAP cards from boarding the Enterprise (especially at peak times) at Drogheda for a start once it comes into operation there - anyone can access all platforms once they are through the gate line.

There are only one gate line at Connolly too.

Not a hope of extra trains. There’s neither the paths nor the rolling stock.

Anybody with a Leap card may be asked to pay for a full price ticket onboard. Huge issues in Connolly also as most boarding is through the side door.
TFI doesn't have a say in cross border fares etc.
The leap is a TFI product so technically it could be refused on the Enterprise.
Taxsavers which come in the form of a leapcard are accepted as they are technically an Irishrail product (for now).
NIR crews can't scan leap cards (Irishrail CSOs can't either, they use the top-up app to check last transaction).
These issues have been brought up with management.
One solution would be dedicated, common, Enterprise online/paper tickets. But that would cause issues in NI then...
Another is to have peak hour Belfast trains skip Drogheda. Like they once did.

LEAP capping remains in place, and at a lower price for the Dublin City Zone (which is slightly reduced in size for rail), but there are a new series of zones that cover the Greater Dublin Area.

All of the information about the fare zones has been public knowledge in detail since the fares determination report was published in January last year.

Loading…

www.nationaltransport.ie

The taxsaver office prepared the document below:

Loading…

www.taxsaver.ie

It would be lovely if the NTA passed this onto staff. Not the first time this has happened.

 

[berneyarms]

Anybody with a Leap card may be asked to pay for a full price ticket onboard. Huge issues in Connolly also as most boarding is through the side door.
TFI doesn't have a say in cross border fares etc.
The leap is a TFI product so technically it could be refused on the Enterprise.
Taxsavers which come in the form of a leapcard are accepted as they are technically an Irishrail product (for now).
NIR crews can't scan leap cards (Irishrail CSOs can't either, they use the top-up app to check last transaction).
These issues have been brought up with management.
One solution would be dedicated, common, Enterprise online/paper tickets. But that would cause issues in NI then...
Another is to have peak hour Belfast trains skip Drogheda. Like they once did.


It would be lovely if the NTA passed this onto staff. Not the first time this has happened.

First off the fares determination report is a public document and has been on the NTA website since January 2024, where anyone (staff included) could access it, so I’m not sure why you think you couldn’t. They are always in the public domain.

Secondly, I think you probably need to get rather more savvy from a political perspective. Any of the solutions you’re proposing would go down like a lead balloon politically and cause massive problems locally. Read the room on this.

 

[sk688]

Irish Rail could put all of their 2700 back in to service which would release many 22000 to extend existing services. It is so ridiculous that these modern trains have been sitting out of service for so long. Or simply order some more 22000 carriages or units. I seem to recall that some new 22000 carriages have just been delivered so they could order more if necessary. Restricting ticketing should not be done to prevent overcrowding. There are other ways of solving it.

2700s are in the process of being scrapped

While new 22000 carriages have been delivered and are mostly in use, there have been software issues with the new carriages preventing full utilitisation

 

[dubscottie]

First off the fares determination report is a public document and has been on the NTA website since January 2024, where anyone (staff included) could access it, so I’m not sure why you think you couldn’t. They are always in the public domain.

Secondly, I think you probably need to get rather more savvy from a political perspective. Any of the solutions you’re proposing would go down like a lead balloon politically and cause massive problems locally. Read the room on this.

Just because its public, doesn't mean that we aware of it. That's the issue.
You have provided more info here than management.
There is no easy fix. We will see what management do.

2700s are in the process of being scrapped

While new 22000 carriages have been delivered and are mostly in use, there have been software issues with the new carriages preventing full utilitisation

All the new coaches are in service. They are causing software issues with the different transmission on them. Its not unusual for the engines on them to be shutdown.
Usually happens when the train stops and the driver cannot take power again until that 41 coach (or B2 car) has its engine isolated.