Leather seats - an upgrade?

[fandroid]

Noting that Virgin are putting in leather seats in first class on their EC HSTs, and on their Voyagers. My one and only experience of leather seating in a train was in a FGW HST first class. All very fine, but I kept sliding about due to the uneven ride. Leather (or faux leather) is common in aircraft and cars, but there is one massive difference! Passengers in planes and cars normally have seat belts on. I travel the ECML quite frequently, and have noted that it is not exactly a smooth route. What are the views of the cognoscenti?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't like them but I'm aware many do.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't like them at all. I think that they're an awful feature in cars as well, especially on hot days.

 

[grumblingalong]

All depends, the older FGW first leather seats I dislike as yes you do slide around but the newer GWR branded ones seemed better. Old East Coast first seats remain the most comfortable ride I've ever had on the UK network! Blair Atholl to KGX without feeling uncomfortable once! I'll have to find an opportunity to travel on one of the new sets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't like them at all. I think that they're an awful feature in cars as well, especially on hot days.

Yes, I certainly would not consider buying a car with them, and I don't understand why it is seen as a premium thing to have your car seats made out of dead animal. I vastly prefer fabric or moquette.

My shoes are, but again that is convention - when a dress code doesn't apply I wear hiking style shoes with a synthetic upper and Gore-Tex lining. The modern synthetic materials are far superior, and it doesn't require killing a cow (not that I mind about killing cows as I eat enough of them, but if you're a veggie...)

 

[DarloRich]

Hard wearing, wipe clean and gives the impression of high class and expensive investment in their train - what is there not to like for the TOC?

 

[Mikey C]

Hard wearing, wipe clean and gives the impression of high class and expensive investment in their train - what is there not to like for the TOC?

Indeed LCC airlines use leather for its practical benefits, this leather is reconstituted so probably quite cheap

 

[Greenback]

I don't like them at all, but as Darlo said, they are attractive for companies like Virgin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed LCC airlines use leather for its practical benefits, this leather is reconstituted so probably quite cheap

Yeah, that's "e-leather", which is a composite of a synthetic matrix and recycled leather fibres.

 

[talltim]

All very fine, but I kept sliding about due to the uneven ride. Leather (or faux leather) is common in aircraft and cars, but there is one massive difference! Passengers in planes and cars normally have seat belts on. I travel the ECML quite frequently, and have noted that it is not exactly a smooth route. What are the views of the cognoscenti?

Even worse on buses, where they seem to be all the rage at the moment.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Even worse on buses, where they seem to be all the rage at the moment.

Except EYMS where the only seats like that are those on the ex-demo they brought

 

[Fincra5]

Easier to clean, we all know what ends up on the seats!!! Also I think it makes the train interior look smarter...

At least if Govia had them people would stop moaning about the "Astroturf" Seats :P

 

[DarloRich]

Even worse on buses, where they seem to be all the rage at the moment.

for exactly the same reasons as rail installation

 

[fgwrich]

Even worse on buses, where they seem to be all the rage at the moment.

I believe that at least First use real leather on their vehicles - there was an article produced last year in Buses Magazine with First Group involved. Stagecoach on the other hand seems to use an awful lot of this awful E-Leather stuff on their vehicles and it shows. Horrible cheap badly wearing stuff, some of South Devon's Enviros are already looking fairly tired as a result.

I'll agree about the FGW to GWR HSTs though, don't get me wrong - I liked the original FC refurb, but the revised and recovered seats in the GWR HST Sets are slightly firmer, but more comfortable.

 

[broadgage]

I am not that keen on leather, finding it rather slippery. In first class on what was then FGW I preferred the seats before the leather ones.

I am however much more interested in seat spacing/legroom, total number of seats, and restaurant provision, then in what the seats are covered in.

 

[A0]

My shoes are, but again that is convention - when a dress code doesn't apply I wear hiking style shoes with a synthetic upper and Gore-Tex lining. The modern synthetic materials are far superior, and it doesn't require killing a cow (not that I mind about killing cows as I eat enough of them, but if you're a veggie...)

I'm reminded of an exchange between the late Alan Clark and Margaret Thatcher on this subject.

On finding out Clark was a vegetarian and anti-hunting, Mrs T remarked 'but Alan, you wear leather shoes' to which Clark replied 'yes, Prime Minister. But would you want your ministers wearing plastic shoes?'.

 

[Clip]

I like leather seats especially in cars as once it moulds to you once its broken in its very very comfortable.

This should happen on trains too but obviously not to the contour of yoru own bum but at least it will be supple without going shapeless like fabric does.

 

[Starmill]

The East Coast set doesn't cause problems. It's well-put together, smooth and comfortable and you don't fall off. The ambiance it creates is undeniably premium and luxurious and you don't do too much sliding despite the enduringly poor ride quality.

All the same I'd rather have moquette. I dislike the smell of cow and notion that we can't have comfortable or 'premium' seats without killing them.

 

[westv]

All the same I'd rather have moquette. I dislike the smell of cow and notion that we can't have comfortable or 'premium' seats without killing them.

But then where would we get nice, juicy, tasty steaks from then?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I like leather seats especially in cars as once it moulds to you once its broken in its very very comfortable.

This should happen on trains too but obviously not to the contour of yoru own bum but at least it will be supple without going shapeless like fabric does.

Yup, That is why I like leather. Also if cared for properly leather seats will look far better in a vehicle after a high mileage than moquette, velour and fabric, all of which will start to look threadbare.

 

[TH172341]

If leather is done well, then it is certainly worth it. Easier to clean and provided it's good quality, lasts. First have done well with fitting leather to some of their refurbished buses. High quality and should last. However if it's cheap leather, poorly executed, after a few years it can look awful with the stretch marks in it.

I quite like a combo of leather and moquette - had it in one of the cars before now and very comfortable, and some buses near me have it fitted now.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yup, That is why I like leather. Also if cared for properly leather seats will look far better in a vehicle after a high mileage than moquette, velour and fabric, all of which will start to look threadbare.

I have to agree with that too, my car is ten years old in March and the cream (real according to the manufacturers brochure) leather interior still looks virtually as new, it has always been treated with Autoglym leather upholstery cream 2/3 times a year.

Back to the trains, is it known if the current 1st class seating on GWR HST's and the previous versions are/were real leather?

 

[broadgage]

The leather seats introduced on then FGW HSTs were real leather, according to a fellow passenger in the leather trade, who should of course know the difference.

He stated that the leather was not of the first quality, but undoubtedly real. Imperfections in the leather were stated to be from the cattle, when alive, scratching themselves on barbed wire fencing.
Cattle kept for milk production, or for eating are commonly kept in the right place by barbed wire, and the hides thereby damaged. This matters little of only small pieces of leather are wanted to make shoes or luggage.

Leather of the best quality is obtained from beasts that roamed freely without coming into contact with barbed wire. This is of special importance when large and undamaged hides are wanted to cover large sofas and the like.

 

[MatthewRead]

Southern should replace all their astro green seats with leather trimmings as they are so dirty looking despite not being very old.

 

[fandroid]

Thanks for all the contributions folks. I can tell that, if done well, leather has some advantages. I personally have no problem with moquette (also if done well) and am a bit puzzled why so many people think that leather means 'class'. To quote my daughter- 'it all seems to be an effort to look 'nobby''. ie a sort of stick-on flashyness. Not a substitute for real intrinsic class, which comes with excellent design, good material quality, and a real understanding of customer needs.

Anyway, I fly a lot, which means I sit on a lot of 'leather'. I have no problems with that experience. I suspect that's because modern aircraft seats have inherited the benefits of years of intensive design effort. (The backs are also consistently lower than modern intercity train seats - ask yourself is the airline industry careless about safety?)

I'm still sceptical about the how leather works with the ride quality on the ECML. Very noticeable sideways lurching is the norm there. The contours of smooth surfaced seats will have to be very well thought out to stop that being quite uncomfortable.

I'm a veggie who wears leather shoes. My rationale is that no cows have been killed specifically to make my shoes, so why be pedantic!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway, I fly a lot, which means I sit on a lot of 'leather'. I have no problems with that experience. I suspect that's because modern aircraft seats have inherited the benefits of years of intensive design effort. (The backs are also consistently lower than modern intercity train seats - ask yourself is the airline industry careless about safety?)

No, it means safety is handled differently. High-backed train seats are used to restrain people in the absence of seat belts.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks for all the contributions folks. I can tell that, if done well, leather has some advantages. I personally have no problem with moquette (also if done well) and am a bit puzzled why so many people think that leather means 'class'. To quote my daughter- 'it all seems to be an effort to look 'nobby''. ie a sort of stick-on flashyness. Not a substitute for real intrinsic class, which comes with excellent design, good material quality, and a real understanding of customer needs.

I find myself in full agreement with your daughter! Quality seems to be last thing on the mind of any TOC these days.

 

[Starmill]

Sat just now on 221 105, with the new leather seats in First Class. Comfy... but not as comfy as the GR HST ones. I think that has as much to do with the design of the seat as anything else though. Doesn't smell quite so much of dead cow though which is a plus to me. I must say I've never really liked the recline mechanism on these seats, where the base just slides out rather than moving up and down. That does kinda mean that your back slides down with the leather unfortunately. That said, the moquette on these seats was a little bit itchy and these are supple and smooth. Armrests are definitely better. The base is quite firm too which I'm sure some will like. The wings on the headrest I do like. Again an oppourtunity to create a pillow effect where the back of your head goes has been missed - the GR HST seats do have this pillow. Good on the whole, but tbh not really an improvement in comfort terms over the 185 First Class seat I was in earlier in my journey, which has a nice soft purple moquette and less strange recline mechanism. The seat backs are high in here, but not so high that I cannot see over the top of them - unlike the GWR First seats.

However, if it is class we are discussing, then Virgin I am afraid to say are doing a good job here. The much maligned blue lights are not offensive and at night I suspect they contribute nicely to the ambience. The food and drink, menu, crockery, furniture and staff are all presented smartly. The smell I do not like but only because I know it is dead cows. Otherwise it might be alright and I suspect most people would find it pleasing - just a background hint. The only thing they need to do now is reduce the rattling trim (they have managed to get rid of the rattly crockery after all ) and line the bays of 4 up with the windows (both have a view of a pillar and not much else) and this is the premium experience people paying those First Anytime fares might actually appreciate. It's undeniable that whatever my personal views on this use of leather, it contributes to a sophisticated, premium setting for First Class, which is doubtless precisely why they are doing it. Photograph attached!

 

[47271]

I've yet to chance upon one of the refurbed VTEC sets but I don't have a problem with what I've seen in photos. I don't generally find that I float around on leather seats, but each to their own.

What I didn't like pre-refurb was grubby velour, often with obvious food and drink stains on either beige or dark blue, and busted recline mechanisms making my seat roll backwards and forwards as the train accelerated and braked. If the refurb prevents or fixes both of those points then I'm all for it.

 

[fandroid]

busted recline mechanisms making my seat roll backwards and forwards as the train accelerated and braked. If the refurb prevents or fixes both of those points then I'm all for it.

I think that we are talking lack of maintenance here. Restyling and maintenance of quality are separate things. We expect the latter to be achieved at all times. Waiting for a refurb before tackling maintenance is absolutely not 'customer care'. It's cost-cutting.