Leeds - Sheffield via Westgate "fast" service

[YorksLad12]

Hello,

Some of you will recall that the (Bradford-)Leeds-Wakefield-Sheffield-Nottingham service was in the Northern franchise in 2016 and has been dropped. It would, however, have provided much-needed end-to-end capacity, especially in the peaks, and would have been faster than the via Barnsley route. So I had a think about it, and wanted someone to check my sums.

Let's say that this service uses the xx29 departure slot from Leeds, which conveniently is also by services to Westgate (and Pontefract/Knottingley), not calling at Outwood. The service behind will be an LNER one, also stopping at Westgate, so the semi-fast should have reached Moorthorpe in plenty of time. From looking at similar timetables along that stretch I reckon xx42 for Westgate, passing Moorthorpe around xx56.

By an amazing co-incidence that puts it nearly in the path of the York-Sheffield Dearne Valley service. Well, it does at 0953-ish. If it manages to avoid all of the freight in the area it would arrive in Sheffield around xx19. It might have to avoid Rotherham Central, though there is space for a call; a call at Meadowhall should also be possible. Unfortunately, the Nottingham service leaves Sheffield 12-ish minutes earlier, which means waiting for the Picadilly fast (TPE) and Picadilly stopper (Northern) to go first if we want to maintain that connection.

Returning would be a bit harder: Departing Sheffield around xx34 (with a knock-on for the Huddersfield and Lincoln services), Westgate at xx10 to pick up the existing path and arrive Leeds at xx24. And we'd still miss the incoming service from Nottingham. And northbound departures would be a bit bunched (xx15, xx21 and xx34) compared with southbound from Leeds (xx11, xx29 and xx48).

The slot I picked is the second Leeds-Pontefract-Knottingley service, which would be better (and more quickly) served just by doubling up the existing route via Castleford. That would also mean pulling the Hallam Line stopping service, at least between Leeds and Castleford/Wakefield Kirkgate, to free up the path and platform. As discussed in threads previously, stops could be made on the semi-fast via Barnsley at Normanton and Darton to maintain connections. There's slack in the timetable, and via Westgate is faster anyway for end-to-end passengers.

The only real losers would be Moorthorpe and Baghill towards York, and Sherburn-in-Elmet and Baghill towards Sheffield. With two return journeys per day I doubt many would be inconvenienced. And if you really wanted to you could extend the now Wakefield-Knottingley service northwards to maintain Pontefract-York connections.

Do my sums stack up? Or have I completely lost it?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The knock-on effect your Northbound has on the Huddersfield service is a problem, as due to the single-line sections that cannot easily be moved. If there's platform space at Sheffield for it to be held back a few minutes you could remove the stops at Elsecar and Wombwell for it to regain the original path leaving Barnsley, but South Yorkshire PTE have made a big deal about the 2tph service at those stations.

Removal of the Dearne Valley Hallam stopper seems to be a favourite on this site, but sorting out Leeds Station capacity is the only real long-term solution there. Thorpe Park/East Leeds Parkway would allow some Leeds terminators to extend via the through platforms, freeing up capacity in the bays.

 

[YorksLad12]

Removal of the Dearne Valley stopper seems to be a favourite on this site, but sorting out Leeds Station capacity is the only real long-term solution there. Thorpe Park/East Leeds Parkway would allow some Leeds terminators to extend via the through platforms, freeing up capacity in the bays.

I don't have anything against the Dearne Valley stoppers but they need to be at least two-hourly if they're going be of use as a service, not two per day at odd times (when not partly replaced by bus, as now). They also don't stop that much in South Yorkshire, though I don't know if that's for pathing or because there's no market.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't have anything against the Dearne Valley stoppers but they need to be at least two-hourly if they're going be of use as a service, not two per day at odd times (when not partly replaced by bus, as now). They also don't stop that much in South Yorkshire, though I don't know if that's for pathing or because there's no market.

Wasn't intending to having a go at you, just something I've observed when discussions go on, that it's quite common to suggest removing the stopper and having the semi-fasts pick up the Normanton and Darton calls. I also now realise I said Dearne Valley when I meant to say Hallam line!

I do hear alarm bells when such things get suggested, because it's those smaller stations that get dropped as soon as things go wrong, and journeys between minor stations end up becoming very difficult to make with a skip-stopping arrangement. Often the people who suggest such things are the same ones who grumble about their express trains calling at minor stops as a result- they can't have it both ways!

 

[YorksLad12]

Wasn't intending to having a go at you, just something I've observed when discussions go on, that it's quite common to suggest removing the stopper and having the semi-fasts pick up the Normanton and Darton calls. I also now realise I said Dearne Valley when I meant to say Hallam line!

I do hear alarm bells when such things get suggested, because it's those smaller stations that get dropped as soon as things go wrong, and journeys between minor stations end up becoming very difficult to make with a skip-stopping arrangement. Often the people who suggest such things are the same ones who grumble about their express trains calling at minor stops as a result- they can't have it both ways!

Oh no offence taken

It's why I also tried to show how current frequencies could be maintained. The Leeds-Sheffield and beyond semi-fasts are faster than the stoppers but still quite slow with some waiting time. Via Rotherham is the faster route if you want an express - and I think we do, really, want an express service between Leeds and Sheffield! Saves everyone cramming onto the CrossCountry service as well.

Station capacity is a problem at York and Sheffield as well, of course, so I've tried not to add anything new... which is impossible at the Sheffield end because there's nothing that can be pulled if you're keeping 2tph between Sheffield and Barnsley. Only the Dearne Valley service, and that's not frequent - which is why it would be better linking up with Sheffield-Nottinghma, as per the original plan, if it can, as that obviously clears the platform.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sheffield Station really needs ripping up and starting again, so much wasted space with non-platform lines that no longer serve much purpose... unfortunately it is partially listed, so there's little chance of making it fit for the 21st century railway.

 

[TheBigD]

Sheffield Station really needs ripping up and starting again, so much wasted space with non-platform lines that no longer serve much purpose... unfortunately it is partially listed, so there's little chance of making it fit for the 21st century railway.

Unless it changed recently, the non platform lines are full most nights with stabled units. You'd need to find somewhere else for them to stable etc if/when Sheffield gets remodelled.

Not sure there's many alternatives near to Sheffield but happy to be corrected.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unless it changed recently, the non platform lines are full most nights with stabled units. You'd need to find somewhere else for them to stable etc if/when Sheffield gets remodelled.

Not sure there's many alternatives near to Sheffield but happy to be corrected.

There's plenty of room around the Sheffield area (Tinsley for example) for a proper depot, rather than having to rely on depots in Leeds or beyond. Units are stabled in those non-platform lines because they're there- not because it's the ideal solution. If they weren't there, just stable in the platforms.

 

[Peterthegreat]

If I remember correctly the original proposal was to run Leeds (may be Bradford) to Nottingham via Wakefield Westgate. I am not sure if this was a diversion of the current service via Barnsley or in addition to it.
However, without changing most of Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire's service it would, more or less, need to run in the existing pathway south of Meadowhall/Sheffield.
The timings for a 195 between Leeds and Sheffield would be similar to that of a voyager. In the southbound direction this would mean leaving Leeds between xx.15 and xx.20 depending how much recovery/performance allowance (but not pathing time) was required. xx.11 is taken by XC, xx.15 is taken by LNER and xx.22 is the Doncaster stopper. You might get away with an xx.19 departure from Leeds but would have potentially conflicting moves at South Kirkby Jn, Swinton, Aldwarke Jn and Holmes Jn. In other words extremely difficult.

 

[TheBigD]

There's plenty of room around the Sheffield area (Tinsley for example) for a proper depot, rather than having to rely on depots in Leeds or beyond. Units are stabled in those non-platform lines because they're there- not because it's the ideal solution. If they weren't there, just stable in the platforms.

Why would you need a proper depot? Just stabling space and light servicing as is done at Sheffield now.
If you replace some of the stabling sidings at Sheffield with platforms you'll be reducing the stabling capacity and will need to provide it elsewhere. And if that means from another place you'll end up having a load of ecs movements with extra crew needed and associated costs.

On a related note, is there much space at Tinsley? Not been near there for around 20 years but assumed (wrongly no doubt) that like a lot of former railway yards it would have seen substantial development.

 

[tbtc]

Hello,

Some of you will recall that the (Bradford-)Leeds-Wakefield-Sheffield-Nottingham service was in the Northern franchise in 2016 and has been dropped. It would, however, have provided much-needed end-to-end capacity, especially in the peaks, and would have been faster than the via Barnsley route

Some of the Arriva franchise bid was a bit tokenistic (rather than addressing the bigger problems that the franchise had) and some of them would have created a lot of reliability problems (Castlefield was bad enough without cramming an hourly Bradford service onto it at some stage in the future, a route made even more unreliable when you consider that the plans seemed to be to run the Nottingham - Bradford train onto the Bradford - Manchester Airport train)...

...but it's a shame that some of these ambitious proposals won't happen - the hourly "fast" Sheffield to Leeds service especially - which would have been equivalent to the journey time on XC services and therefore been a lot more attractive (since the XC service can be very busy with longer distance passengers)

I know it's unrealistic to demand that Sheffield ever gets equivalent frequencies/ speeds/ lengths to Leeds/Manchester that Leeds/Manchester have to each other but two "fast" trains per hour would have been nice, even if the second one was only a two coach 195

Not much chance of any ambitions now that the Government are running everything though -expect to see more cuts than improvements in future

it's quite common to suggest removing the stopper and having the semi-fasts pick up the Normanton and Darton call

I've made this argument before (though possibly I'm not the only one).

My reasoning being:

• At the moment the semi-fasts via Kirkgate take around an hour (to do Sheffield - Leeds) versus around forty five minutes for the one fast train per hour via Westgate
• This means that, whilst the pre-Covid timetable was a half hourly service on the semi-fasts, the time penalty meant that Sheffield - Wakefield/Leeds passengers found that one semi-fast service was overtaken by the XC train and the other semi-fast was only getting into Leeds shortly before the next XC train, so it wasn't taking much pressure off the XC services - unless you had a cheaper ticket on the Northern service, the wasn't much incentive to use it
• There's no real scope to improve journey times of the Kirkgate services and the much discussed problems with Platform 17 at Leeds mean that any Kirkgate services are restricted to two coaches
• If there were to be a second "fast" service via Westgate (which will probably never happen now) then that would probably mean that "no" Sheffield to Leeds passengers are going to be using the Kirkgate services (since all Kirkgate services would be overtaken by Westgate services)
• Normanton has a horribly uncompetitive journey time into Leeds (given the reversal at Castleford)
• Before the Government started making cuts, there was an hourly Kirkgate - Castleford service provided by the ex-Huddersfield service, so there would still have been trains on that stretch of line
• So, if the Sheffield to Wakefield/Leeds journey time is no longer so important (since people won't be using it from end to end) then you can afford to pick up an additional stop on each service (one of the semi-fasts taking Darton, the other taking Normanton)
• Nobody sane is going to sit on a train from Barnsley/Wakefield to Leeds via Castleford, given the time penalty - it's a box ticking exercise from BR days, when they tried to serve multiple markets with one DMU, rather than a proper solution to anything (neither use nor ornament)
• However, Pontefract to Leeds is an under-served market - I've mentioned before that I think it could justify the same kind of service along the Aire Valley that towns further up the Aire Valley get into Leeds (Shipley corridor) - but there's only scope for one two coach train per hour from Pontefract towards Castleford because of the problems with Platform 17 and the fact that one of the Castleford - Leeds services is the one that has reversed there (ex Barnsley etc)
• So, if we no longer need to worry about Sheffield - Leeds passengers on the trains through Kirkgate and we have an opportunity to improve services from Leeds/ Castleford to Pontefract/ Knottingley then the time penalty for adding one additional stop onto journeys like Barnsley - Leeds doesn't seem to much, given that this comes at the benefit of seats freed up by removing the Sheffield - Wakefield/Leeds passengers from these services

The problem with it is what you do about the currently hourly service from Sheffield to Barnsley (that currently runs to Leeds via Castleford)? Terminate it at Barnsley? Kirkgate? Darton (given that it's single platform)?

I think that Barnsley justified the "two fast, two slow" services per hour towards Meadowhall/ Sheffield - I don't think that cutting that would be a great idea - putting the stops at Chapletown/ Elsecar etc into the faster trains would be a bad idea (but then, Chapletown has a lot of people living there to be close to the motorway junction, given the number of households where one might live in Leeds and other in Sheffield/ Nottingham etc - rail is very uncompetitive here)

I'm not saying that the above is perfect, but I don't think that the reversal at Castleford is much use to anyone, so I'd be okay with chopping up the Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds services - it was probably acceptable in BR days when there was only one train on the line north of Kirkgate and therefore they were trying to serve multiple markets with one service, but things have changed since the 1980s - Normanton is prime commuter territory for Leeds jobs but it takes trains half an hour to do a journey that's under ten miles as the crow flies, which is terrible

Why would you need a proper depot? Just stabling space and light servicing as is done at Sheffield now.
If you replace some of the stabling sidings at Sheffield with platforms you'll be reducing the stabling capacity and will need to provide it elsewhere. And if that means from another place you'll end up having a load of ecs movements with extra crew needed and associated costs

Why can't a city like Sheffield have more than just some stabling?

Because we don't have a proper depot, we've been sending trains ECS between Sheffield and Heaton (Newcastle) because that's where they are officially based (and cycled amongst the Heaton fleet), which seems a very expensive way of doing things

 

[TheBigD]

Why can't a city like Sheffield have more than just some stabling?

Because we don't have a proper depot, we've been sending trains ECS between Sheffield and Heaton (Newcastle) because that's where they are officially based (and cycled amongst the Heaton fleet), which seems a very expensive way of doing things

Lots of cities don't have full depot facilities.

How often are there ecs mivements between Sheffield and Heaton? Doesn't appear to be any booked moves next week.

Most fleets these days have a home depot and then out stabled at various locations with just fueling and light servicing done.

XC's Voyager fleet stables all over the network yet cycles through the home depot at Central Rivers for example. There isn't the need full depot facilities at every city they stabled in. Just the need for fuelling, CET emptying, cleaning etc.

I doubt Northern fleet are thaat different and require full depot facilities at every city they stable stock in.

 

[YorksLad12]

Some of the Arriva franchise bid was a bit tokenistic (rather than addressing the bigger problems that the franchise had) and some of them would have created a lot of reliability problems (Castlefield was bad enough without cramming an hourly Bradford service onto it at some stage in the future, a route made even more unreliable when you consider that the plans seemed to be to run the Nottingham - Bradford train onto the Bradford - Manchester Airport train)...

...but it's a shame that some of these ambitious proposals won't happen - the hourly "fast" Sheffield to Leeds service especially - which would have been equivalent to the journey time on XC services and therefore been a lot more attractive (since the XC service can be very busy with longer distance passengers)

I know it's unrealistic to demand that Sheffield ever gets equivalent frequencies/ speeds/ lengths to Leeds/Manchester that Leeds/Manchester have to each other but two "fast" trains per hour would have been nice, even if the second one was only a two coach 195

Not much chance of any ambitions now that the Government are running everything though -expect to see more cuts than improvements in future

I think we broadly agree, and I always thought Bradford - Manchester Airport was a tad optimistic. A second faster(ish) Leeds-Sheffield has definite merits though. I'd have used it, if I was still working in Sheffield.

I've made this argument before (though possibly I'm not the only one).

You have and you aren't, as I came around to this thinking as well (hence my attempt at a solution).

• Nobody sane is going to sit on a train from Barnsley/Wakefield to Leeds via Castleford, given the time penalty - it's a box ticking exercise from BR days, when they tried to serve multiple markets with one DMU, rather than a proper solution to anything (neither use nor ornament)

It was, I believe, a WYPTE/PTA request in order to get 2 tph from Castleford to Leeds (and most people using Altofts could reach Normanton Station instead). A similar argument was made them (as WYCA) leading to the extension of the other Knottingley service to Leeds via Westgate, so that Pontefract now has two 2ph to Leeds. It's ungainly, hence my suggestion of 2tph Leeds-Castleford-Pontefract instead.

The problem with it is what you do about the currently hourly service from Sheffield to Barnsley (that currently runs to Leeds via Castleford)? Terminate it at Barnsley? Kirkgate? Darton (given that it's single platform)?

Darton has two platforms, I think? It could terminate at Barnsley, run to Penistone (very difficult with the single track sections), run through to Kirkgate, terminate at Castleford (when P2 is in use again) or run through to York as others (not me) have suggested. Decision based on ticket sales, I guess.

I think that Barnsley justified the "two fast, two slow" services per hour towards Meadowhall/ Sheffield - I don't think that cutting that would be a great idea

Agreed. Four south, but does it need more than two fasts northwards? Especially if they take over some of the stopping service calls? When I used to get the 0738 to Sheffield we'd take on a carriageful at Barnsley; on the 1718 return the train would almost empty at Barnsley. I'm talking on a 158 here, the 150s were full with just a couple of people on board and I stopped doing that run before the 195s came in.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why would you need a proper depot? Just stabling space and light servicing as is done at Sheffield now.
If you replace some of the stabling sidings at Sheffield with platforms you'll be reducing the stabling capacity and will need to provide it elsewhere. And if that means from another place you'll end up having a load of ecs movements with extra crew needed and associated costs.

You wouldn't, though there would be advantages to providing one- not least because as you say moving the stabling away from the stations would require additional ECS moves, so crews would want some sort of facilities there.

My point is that if you were designing Sheffield station from scratch today, you probably wouldn't put the stabling points between the platforms, because it uses up space that would be better used for platforms and isn't exactly optimal.

Darton has two platforms, I think? It could terminate at Barnsley, run to Penistone (very difficult with the single track sections), run through to Kirkgate, terminate at Castleford (when P2 is in use again) or run through to York as others (not me) have suggested. Decision based on ticket sales, I guess.

The single line to Penistone wouldn't be a problem timing-wise, though your terminating service would clash with the next Sheffield-bound from Huddersfield so would need a 30min dwell before returning, meaning you'd need an extra diagram on the circuit. (Based on a half-remembered investigation I did a few months ago).

 

[D365]

Sheffield Station really needs ripping up and starting again, so much wasted space with non-platform lines that no longer serve much purpose... unfortunately it is partially listed, so there's little chance of making it fit for the 21st century railway.

The station itself is not the pinch point at the moment!

 

[matacaster]

Some of the Arriva franchise bid was a bit tokenistic (rather than addressing the bigger problems that the franchise had) and some of them would have created a lot of reliability problems (Castlefield was bad enough without cramming an hourly Bradford service onto it at some stage in the future, a route made even more unreliable when you consider that the plans seemed to be to run the Nottingham - Bradford train onto the Bradford - Manchester Airport train)...

...but it's a shame that some of these ambitious proposals won't happen - the hourly "fast" Sheffield to Leeds service especially - which would have been equivalent to the journey time on XC services and therefore been a lot more attractive (since the XC service can be very busy with longer distance passengers)

I know it's unrealistic to demand that Sheffield ever gets equivalent frequencies/ speeds/ lengths to Leeds/Manchester that Leeds/Manchester have to each other but two "fast" trains per hour would have been nice, even if the second one was only a two coach 195

Not much chance of any ambitions now that the Government are running everything though -expect to see more cuts than improvements in future



I've made this argument before (though possibly I'm not the only one).

My reasoning being:

• At the moment the semi-fasts via Kirkgate take around an hour (to do Sheffield - Leeds) versus around forty five minutes for the one fast train per hour via Westgate
• This means that, whilst the pre-Covid timetable was a half hourly service on the semi-fasts, the time penalty meant that Sheffield - Wakefield/Leeds passengers found that one semi-fast service was overtaken by the XC train and the other semi-fast was only getting into Leeds shortly before the next XC train, so it wasn't taking much pressure off the XC services - unless you had a cheaper ticket on the Northern service, the wasn't much incentive to use it
• There's no real scope to improve journey times of the Kirkgate services and the much discussed problems with Platform 17 at Leeds mean that any Kirkgate services are restricted to two coaches
• If there were to be a second "fast" service via Westgate (which will probably never happen now) then that would probably mean that "no" Sheffield to Leeds passengers are going to be using the Kirkgate services (since all Kirkgate services would be overtaken by Westgate services)
• Normanton has a horribly uncompetitive journey time into Leeds (given the reversal at Castleford)
• Before the Government started making cuts, there was an hourly Kirkgate - Castleford service provided by the ex-Huddersfield service, so there would still have been trains on that stretch of line
• So, if the Sheffield to Wakefield/Leeds journey time is no longer so important (since people won't be using it from end to end) then you can afford to pick up an additional stop on each service (one of the semi-fasts taking Darton, the other taking Normanton)
• Nobody sane is going to sit on a train from Barnsley/Wakefield to Leeds via Castleford, given the time penalty - it's a box ticking exercise from BR days, when they tried to serve multiple markets with one DMU, rather than a proper solution to anything (neither use nor ornament)
• However, Pontefract to Leeds is an under-served market - I've mentioned before that I think it could justify the same kind of service along the Aire Valley that towns further up the Aire Valley get into Leeds (Shipley corridor) - but there's only scope for one two coach train per hour from Pontefract towards Castleford because of the problems with Platform 17 and the fact that one of the Castleford - Leeds services is the one that has reversed there (ex Barnsley etc)
• So, if we no longer need to worry about Sheffield - Leeds passengers on the trains through Kirkgate and we have an opportunity to improve services from Leeds/ Castleford to Pontefract/ Knottingley then the time penalty for adding one additional stop onto journeys like Barnsley - Leeds doesn't seem to much, given that this comes at the benefit of seats freed up by removing the Sheffield - Wakefield/Leeds passengers from these services

The problem with it is what you do about the currently hourly service from Sheffield to Barnsley (that currently runs to Leeds via Castleford)? Terminate it at Barnsley? Kirkgate? Darton (given that it's single platform)?

I think that Barnsley justified the "two fast, two slow" services per hour towards Meadowhall/ Sheffield - I don't think that cutting that would be a great idea - putting the stops at Chapletown/ Elsecar etc into the faster trains would be a bad idea (but then, Chapletown has a lot of people living there to be close to the motorway junction, given the number of households where one might live in Leeds and other in Sheffield/ Nottingham etc - rail is very uncompetitive here)

I'm not saying that the above is perfect, but I don't think that the reversal at Castleford is much use to anyone, so I'd be okay with chopping up the Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds services - it was probably acceptable in BR days when there was only one train on the line north of Kirkgate and therefore they were trying to serve multiple markets with one service, but things have changed since the 1980s - Normanton is prime commuter territory for Leeds jobs but it takes trains half an hour to do a journey that's under ten miles as the crow flies, which is terrible



Why can't a city like Sheffield have more than just some stabling?

Because we don't have a proper depot, we've been sending trains ECS between Sheffield and Heaton (Newcastle) because that's where they are officially based (and cycled amongst the Heaton fleet), which seems a very expensive way of doing things

The problem with it is what you do about the currently hourly service from Sheffield to Barnsley (that currently runs to Leeds via Castleford)? Terminate it at Barnsley? Kirkgate? Darton (given that it's single platform)?

How about instead of terminating at kirkgate running through to huddersfield via ravensthorpe?

 

[tbtc]

Lots of cities don't have full depot facilities.

How often are there ecs mivements between Sheffield and Heaton? Doesn't appear to be any booked moves next week.

Most fleets these days have a home depot and then out stabled at various locations with just fueling and light servicing done.

XC's Voyager fleet stables all over the network yet cycles through the home depot at Central Rivers for example. There isn't the need full depot facilities at every city they stabled in. Just the need for fuelling, CET emptying, cleaning etc.

I doubt Northern fleet are thaat different and require full depot facilities at every city they stable stock in.

There's no problem with cycling units so that they visit their "home" depot every few days - but there is an issue when you have a situation like the Heaton ECS movements (or the EMR services that have to get to Sheffield)

I think we broadly agree, and I always thought Bradford - Manchester Airport was a tad optimistic. A second faster(ish) Leeds-Sheffield has definite merits though. I'd have used it, if I was still working in Sheffield

This proposed service was the one highlight of the Arriva franchise plans (there were a lot of improvements to "fringe" routes, like the Bentham line, but not much between the major cities) - sadly it's one that never came close to happening

It was, I believe, a WYPTE/PTA request in order to get 2 tph from Castleford to Leeds (and most people using Altofts could reach Normanton Station instead). A similar argument was made them (as WYCA) leading to the extension of the other Knottingley service to Leeds via Westgate, so that Pontefract now has two 2ph to Leeds. It's ungainly, hence my suggestion of 2tph Leeds-Castleford-Pontefract instead

A half hourly Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract service would be great

As someone who used to work in Leeds, I feel sorry for people on this corridor - they only have one train per hour and can only have a maximum of two coach DMUs (because of the constraints at the Leeds end of the route) - other routes into Leeds have seen big improvements happen (e.g. Harrogate getting its frequency doubled) or planned (e.g. electrification to Bradford Interchange), but not this one - frustrating!

Darton has two platforms, I think? It could terminate at Barnsley, run to Penistone (very difficult with the single track sections), run through to Kirkgate, terminate at Castleford (when P2 is in use again) or run through to York as others (not me) have suggested. Decision based on ticket sales, I guess

Apologies, I should have said Dodworth, not Darton - I was thinking that this might be somewhere to bung it instead of occupying the platforms at Barnsley

Four south, but does it need more than two fasts northwards? Especially if they take over some of the stopping service calls? When I used to get the 0738 to Sheffield we'd take on a carriageful at Barnsley; on the 1718 return the train would almost empty at Barnsley. I'm talking on a 158 here, the 150s were full with just a couple of people on board and I stopped doing that run before the 195s came in.

If one of the "semi fasts" takes the Darton stop and the other one does Normanton then there's not much need for the stoppers to run north of Barnsley, as I see it - if you did continue to run them through to Wakefield then it'd be as much about operational convenience as any huge need for three trains per hour from Barnsley to Wakefield (especially as some fares are cheap as long as you stay inside PTE boundaries, but less incentive to cross them!)

My point is that if you were designing Sheffield station from scratch today, you probably wouldn't put the stabling points between the platforms, because it uses up space that would be better used for platforms and isn't exactly optimal

Agreed - we have a station that would have worked well in the days of loco hauled services that need "middle roads" etc, but we really need more platforms instead nowadays

How about instead of terminating at kirkgate running through to huddersfield via ravensthorpe?

Interesting idea - I'd not considered that - there's no realistic way of improving the Sheffield - Huddersfield services on the existing Penistone route (single line sections, platform lengths), but reversing at Kirkgate... worth considering

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Interesting idea - I'd not considered that - there's no realistic way of improving the Sheffield - Huddersfield services on the existing Penistone route (single line sections, platform lengths), but reversing at Kirkgate... worth considering

Without wishing to go too far off-topic, improving frequency with an extra loop in the Lockwood/Lockwood viaduct area would be relatively straightforward from a technical standpoint... just not likely to be a priority for investment. 2tph is an aspiration for both PTEs, but capacity at the Sheffield end is lacking. Diverting the Hallam stopper there would solve this, but you still need the loop.

A service via Kirkgate could work, though unless it takes the path of the currently bustituted Huddersfield to Castleford into HUD, you'd struggle to accommodate it at Huddersfield especially once the upgrade is done.

 

[IanXC]

A service via Kirkgate could work, though unless it takes the path of the currently bustituted Huddersfield to Castleford into HUD, you'd struggle to accommodate it at Huddersfield especially once the upgrade is done.

It'd be easier once Thornhill to Huddersfield is 4 tracked surely??

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It'd be easier once Thornhill to Huddersfield is 4 tracked surely??

Getting into Huddersfield will be. Finding a platform (with only one Mirfield-facing bay after the rebuild) might be trickier. Presumably at least one of the two slow through platforms will also be signalled to allow services to start and terminate there, but I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere.

 

[Neptune]

Why can't a city like Sheffield have more than just some stabling?

Because we don't have a proper depot, we've been sending trains ECS between Sheffield and Heaton (Newcastle) because that's where they are officially based (and cycled amongst the Heaton fleet), which seems a very expensive way of doing things

Untrue. There are no ECS moves between Sheffield and Heaton.

There is a nightly York - Heaton and return ECS for Heaton 158’s to cycle through using 1 York driver for the York - Newcastle and return part on the end of their diagram.

 

[yorksrob]

There's no problem with cycling units so that they visit their "home" depot every few days - but there is an issue when you have a situation like the Heaton ECS movements (or the EMR services that have to get to Sheffield)



This proposed service was the one highlight of the Arriva franchise plans (there were a lot of improvements to "fringe" routes, like the Bentham line, but not much between the major cities) - sadly it's one that never came close to happening



A half hourly Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract service would be great

As someone who used to work in Leeds, I feel sorry for people on this corridor - they only have one train per hour and can only have a maximum of two coach DMUs (because of the constraints at the Leeds end of the route) - other routes into Leeds have seen big improvements happen (e.g. Harrogate getting its frequency doubled) or planned (e.g. electrification to Bradford Interchange), but not this one - frustrating!



Apologies, I should have said Dodworth, not Darton - I was thinking that this might be somewhere to bung it instead of occupying the platforms at Barnsley



If one of the "semi fasts" takes the Darton stop and the other one does Normanton then there's not much need for the stoppers to run north of Barnsley, as I see it - if you did continue to run them through to Wakefield then it'd be as much about operational convenience as any huge need for three trains per hour from Barnsley to Wakefield (especially as some fares are cheap as long as you stay inside PTE boundaries, but less incentive to cross them!)



Agreed - we have a station that would have worked well in the days of loco hauled services that need "middle roads" etc, but we really need more platforms instead nowadays



Interesting idea - I'd not considered that - there's no realistic way of improving the Sheffield - Huddersfield services on the existing Penistone route (single line sections, platform lengths), but reversing at Kirkgate... worth considering

Normanton needs half hourly to Leeds. Ponte already gets additional Leeds services via Wakefield so doesn't need half hourly via Castleford.

 

[Neptune]

Normanton needs half hourly to Leeds. Ponte already gets additional Leeds services via Wakefield so doesn't need half hourly via Castleford.

Quite, and this whole thread seems to forget that for the last 4 years Featherstone and Streethouse finally gained an hourly service to/from Leeds which has proved extremely popular. Yes Glasshoughton remains hourly as per Feath and Streethouse but better to have 3 stations with an hourly service to the regional hub than 1 station with half hourly resulting in 2 with none.

 

[Manutd1999]

An additional fast service via Wakefield Westgate, running in the opposite half-hour to the XC service, seems to make sense all round. Even better this could extend to Nottingham, replacing the current service via Barnsley. This gives a consistent half-hourly schedule from Leeds all the way to Chesterfield, with one service extending to Derby and Birmingham (XC) and the other to Nottingham (Northern).

As others have said, the semi-fast via Barnsley could then pick up extra stops at Darton/Normanton to give these stations a more direct service to Leeds. Something like this:

4ph out of platform 17 at Leeds, inter-working as required:

2ph Leeds - Woodlesford - Castleford - Glasshoughton - Pontefract - Knottingley
2ph Leeds - Normanton - Kirkgate - Darton - Barnsley - Meadowhall - Sheffield - extending to Lincoln

This is supplemented by 2x additional stoppers between Sheffield and Barnsley:

2ph Sheffield - all stops - Barnsley - continuing to either Huddersfield (1ph) or Castleford (1ph, with extensions to York)


As mentioned, via Westgate there would be a half-hourly fast service. Combined with stoppers and the existing LNER, this gives a total of 7ph along the Leeds to Westgate line:

2ph Leeds - Westgate - Sheffield - continuing to either Birmingham (XC) or Nottingham (Northern)
1ph Leeds - Westgate - Streethouse - Featherstone - Pontefract - Knottingley
2ph Leeds - Outwood - Westgate - Sandal - Fitzwilliam - continuing to either Sheffield via Thurnscoe (1ph) or Doncaster (1ph)
2ph LNER


Just about do-able?

 

[yorksrob]

Quite, and this whole thread seems to forget that for the last 4 years Featherstone and Streethouse finally gained an hourly service to/from Leeds which has proved extremely popular. Yes Glasshoughton remains hourly as per Feath and Streethouse but better to have 3 stations with an hourly service to the regional hub than 1 station with half hourly resulting in 2 with none.

That's a handy service for me if the Hallam isn't running for whatever reason.

 

[Neptune]

That's a handy service for me if the Hallam isn't running for whatever reason.

Yes the shuttles between Knottingley and Kirkgate carried passenger numbers in single figures at times through the day. Once they started to run through to Leeds numbers increased very quickly.

It also took a massive strain off the via Cas services by giving 2tph Knottingley/Monkhill to Leeds. Before the extension they could be full after Monkhill on a Saturday even with a 150.

 

[Peterthegreat]

An additional fast service via Wakefield Westgate, running in the opposite half-hour to the XC service, seems to make sense all round. Even better this could extend to Nottingham, replacing the current service via Barnsley. This gives a consistent half-hourly schedule from Leeds all the way to Chesterfield, with one service extending to Derby and Birmingham (XC) and the other to Nottingham (Northern).

As others have said, the semi-fast via Barnsley could then pick up extra stops at Darton/Normanton to give these stations a more direct service to Leeds. Something like this:

4ph out of platform 17 at Leeds, inter-working as required:

2ph Leeds - Woodlesford - Castleford - Glasshoughton - Pontefract - Knottingley
2ph Leeds - Normanton - Kirkgate - Darton - Barnsley - Meadowhall - Sheffield - extending to Lincoln

This is supplemented by 2x additional stoppers between Sheffield and Barnsley:

2ph Sheffield - all stops - Barnsley - continuing to either Huddersfield (1ph) or Castleford (1ph, with extensions to York)


As mentioned, via Westgate there would be a half-hourly fast service. Combined with stoppers and the existing LNER, this gives a total of 7ph along the Leeds to Westgate line:

2ph Leeds - Westgate - Sheffield - continuing to either Birmingham (XC) or Nottingham (Northern)
1ph Leeds - Westgate - Streethouse - Featherstone - Pontefract - Knottingley
2ph Leeds - Outwood - Westgate - Sandal - Fitzwilliam - continuing to either Sheffield via Thurnscoe (1ph) or Doncaster (1ph)
2ph LNER


Just about do-able?

It is probably do able between Leeds and Swinton if it goes from Leeds at something like xx.41 (ie 30 mins apart from the XC path. However once it gets to Swinton it is exactly in the path of the XC Newcastle to Reading service (most of which don't run at the moment). Assuming it takes this path then it would leave Sheffield about 15-20 minutes in front of the existing Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich service.
In addition you are depriving Chapeltown, Elsecar and Wombwell passengers direct services to Leeds.

 

[Neptune]

I find it bemusing that on one thread there’s complaints that Northern concentrate on regional expresses at the expense of local services yet here we are looking at trying to create another Leeds - Sheffield fast service at the expense of local services.

 

[tbtc]

Untrue. There are no ECS moves between Sheffield and Heaton.

There is a nightly York - Heaton and return ECS for Heaton 158’s to cycle through using 1 York driver for the York - Newcastle and return part on the end of their diagram.

Cheers for confirming - it was certainly common in the Pacer days, but I've clearly not kept up with such things

Normanton needs half hourly to Leeds. Ponte already gets additional Leeds services via Wakefield so doesn't need half hourly via Castleford.

Quite, and this whole thread seems to forget that for the last 4 years Featherstone and Streethouse finally gained an hourly service to/from Leeds which has proved extremely popular. Yes Glasshoughton remains hourly as per Feath and Streethouse but better to have 3 stations with an hourly service to the regional hub than 1 station with half hourly resulting in 2 with none.

I'm not making any suggestion that Featherstone etc lose their direct service to Leeds (we've seen this service significantly improve passenger numbers since the extension to Leeds, further proof that heavy rail doesn't seem to work very well in West Yorkshire unless you serve Leeds - the services from Ilkley to Bradford are quiet, the services from Bradford to Huddersfield are quiet, the services from Huddersfield to Wakefield are quiet, the services from Wakefield to Pontefract were quiet before the Leeds extension)

But that's no reason not to also double the Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract service (why would people sit on a service from Leeds to Normanton that takes half an hour once you've reversed at Castleford when you could travel on a service taking fifteen minutes by avoiding Castleford?)

Glasshoughton could be a great P&R site, but nobody is going to bother if there's just one train per hour serving it

An additional fast service via Wakefield Westgate, running in the opposite half-hour to the XC service, seems to make sense all round. Even better this could extend to Nottingham, replacing the current service via Barnsley. This gives a consistent half-hourly schedule from Leeds all the way to Chesterfield, with one service extending to Derby and Birmingham (XC) and the other to Nottingham (Northern).

This was what Arriva were planning (Bradford - Leeds - Westgate - Sheffield - Nottingham, interworked with the Manchester Airport service), but has the problem that you are trying to run a broadly half hourly "fast" Leeds - Sheffield and a broadly half hourly XC service from Sheffield towards Derby and also a broadly half hourly service from Sheffield to Nottingham (a Leeds service plus a Liverpool service), so that means that (as well as the London services) you'd have four trains per hour from Sheffield to Chesterfield but it'd be more like "two within five minutes of each other, then a long gap" which would be a bit bunched

I find it bemusing that on one thread there’s complaints that Northern concentrate on regional expresses at the expense of local services yet here we are looking at trying to create another Leeds - Sheffield fast service at the expense of local services.

I'd say the opposite is true - we seem to be discussing providing better services at local stations like Darton/ Normanton, which currently see only a tediously slow stopper to Leeds because there's no capacity for the "semi fast" services to stop there since they are trying to provide a broadly competitive journey time from Sheffield to Leeds (so it only stops at Kirkgate between Barnsley and Leeds)

Provide the second "fast" Sheffield to Leeds train (still a fraction of the "fast" services from Manchester to Leeds) and you can improve services at local stations on the line through Kirkgate

 

[YorksLad12]

How about instead of terminating at kirkgate running through to huddersfield via ravensthorpe?

Interesting idea - I'd not considered that - there's no realistic way of improving the Sheffield - Huddersfield services on the existing Penistone route (single line sections, platform lengths), but reversing at Kirkgate... worth considering

That's a no from me. Unless you're suggesting a twice hourly Huddersfield-Wakefield service? If this replaces the existing stopper then you lose all services running Wakefield-Normanton-Castleford, because we'll have pulled out both of the existing services.

Getting into Huddersfield will be. Finding a platform (with only one Mirfield-facing bay after the rebuild) might be trickier. Presumably at least one of the two slow through platforms will also be signalled to allow services to start and terminate there, but I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere.

Only new platforms 2 & 3 would be used by the fast services. Platforms 4 & 5 should be long enough for four-car units at either end, not much different to now (except there's two platforms in the future instead of just P4 as now).

A half hourly Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract service would be great

Normanton needs half hourly to Leeds. Ponte already gets additional Leeds services via Wakefield so doesn't need half hourly via Castleford.

As someone who used to work in Leeds, I feel sorry for people on this corridor - they only have one train per hour and can only have a maximum of two coach DMUs (because of the constraints at the Leeds end of the route) - other routes into Leeds have seen big improvements happen (e.g. Harrogate getting its frequency doubled) or planned (e.g. electrification to Bradford Interchange), but not this one - frustrating!

I agree, and that's why the Knottingley-Wakefield service was extended to Leeds. But it takes longer than via Castleford, which is why I was trying to double that service up by pulling the Hallam Line stopper and replacing with "my" Wakefield fast and a truncated Hallam Line stopper.

Quite, and this whole thread seems to forget that for the last 4 years Featherstone and Streethouse finally gained an hourly service to/from Leeds which has proved extremely popular. Yes Glasshoughton remains hourly as per Feath and Streethouse but better to have 3 stations with an hourly service to the regional hub than 1 station with half hourly resulting in 2 with none.

Kirkstall Forge went up to 2 tph because CEG badgered everyone about it. There's no-one advocating for Glasshoughton - but there should be!

Yes the shuttles between Knottingley and Kirkgate carried passenger numbers in single figures at times through the day. Once they started to run through to Leeds numbers increased very quickly.

It also took a massive strain off the via Cas services by giving 2tph Knottingley/Monkhill to Leeds. Before the extension they could be full after Monkhill on a Saturday even with a 150.

Well... now, is that just for Knottingley/Pontefract passengers, or Tanshelf, Featherstone and Streethouse patronage as well? Genuine question, as I don't see people from Featherstone departing en masse for Leeds every morning. It wouldn't take too many trains to emopy the town

I find it bemusing that on one thread there’s complaints that Northern concentrate on regional expresses at the expense of local services yet here we are looking at trying to create another Leeds - Sheffield fast service at the expense of local services.

Not at their expense! I tried to maintain all links possible now, even the remoter ones (not so much Woodlesford to Chapeltown).

Where my suggestion works is that you don't need extra paths or platforms, we've just rejigged things a bit, to align more closely to actual passenger journeys, rather than just an end-to-end that no-one makes unless they're desperate.

I think there is recognition that that area of Wakefield is underserved, exacerbated by the withdrawal of some Arriva bus services (including Knottingley-Castleford, until Ross Travel stepped in) and the bustitution of Huddersfield-Wakefield-Castleford. But trying to squeeze additional services in just creates a mess, there's limited platform availability at Leeds, Sheffield and York. So why not try for a bit of ... or even a wholescale... recast of services in the area?