Leeds Supertram

[Waverley125]

looking at how Leeds station will need to expand to cope with the (hopeful) arrival of HS2, and the need for more terminating platforms, along with the general congestion of Leeds City Centre, it's shocking to me that the government cancelled the Supertram project. Seeing that it would have served some of the city's poorest areas, and would have helped the gentrification which is beginning in some areas, it should surely be duty for the Leeds MPs to campaign for it to be put back on track.

 

[Mojo]

The regions have to submit requests for the next round of funding - Regional Funding Allocation 2 (RFA2) at the start of next year. This is important if Central Government refuses capital funding and the only way forward if such a project is to proceed.

The next meeting of Yorkshire & Humber's Assembly Regional Transport Board is on 10 October - http://www.yhassembly.gov.uk/Meetings/Regional Transport Board/. If anyone is passionate about ensuring their rail project is included in the submission then you should lobby the Councillors who sit on this board. Send e-mails & letters to their council addresses. Members of the public are permitted to make a three minute statement at the start of Board meetings.

This is the same procedure in all the regions, check the website of your local assembly if you are interested, and get in touch with the relevant officer - we are currently lobbying to ensure the Portishead and Henbury lines are included.

Personally I'm not sure about the urgency of this project compared to others but I don't know the area. Certaintly Leeds isn't in the latest (April 2008) top 10 congested cities list (which doesn't include London) and its economic importance is less of that of other cities. I wonder if a better solution could be found than an expensive tramway for Leeds (maybe Ultra Light Rail)?

 

[Bayum]

They are trying something like that on the Penistone line. And if it works, they're going to try and introduce such services onto the Leeds - York Via Harrogate line as well. They're going to be like, diesel trams or something like...

 

[Mojo]

They are trying something like that on the Penistone line. And if it works, they're going to try and introduce such services onto the Leeds - York Via Harrogate line as well. They're going to be like, diesel trams or something like...

AIUI, what they are trying on the Penistone Line is not ULR.

 

[Bayum]

Ahh well. It's what the new idea that they put forward is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Tram trains is what i meant

http://www.wymetro.com/ProjectsAndPlans/NewGenerationTransport/TramTrains.htm

 

[Mojo]

It's the tram-train concept I believe as we heard about it at the Community Rail Conference in Plymouth. It would seem that other areas are trying to beat them to trial something like that!

 

[Bayum]

I thought it was already being trialled on the Penistone line though?? Or at least announced it would take place on the Penistone line

 

[Mojo]

I thought it was already being trialled on the Penistone line though?? Or at least announced it would take place on the Penistone line

It has been, by the DfT who haven't even arranged any vehicles. I wouldn't be surprised if someone beats them to it.

 

[Bayum]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. You know what the DFT and Government are like though... It'll never happen!! And I don't understand... Why the Penistone line?? Where there's like a service every so often?

 

[1D53]

Yeah the DfT havent made any decisions yet - rumour is they haven't even asked NWR to task the changes needed to stations and infrastructure.

 

[yorkie]

Bayum - Leeds Supertram has nothing to do with the proposed joke trial on the Penistone line (which is about reducing costs on rural lines but is actually very flawed). If you want to discuss that, I suggest posting a new topic...

 

[Waverley125]

oh, and for those trying to run down the great city of Leodis, a few things

-leeds is the UK's third largest city
-fastest growing city anywhere in Europe
-extremely congested-go there and see for yourself.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

-leeds is the UK's third largest city

Hmmm. That'll be third after London, Birmingham, Glasgow and Sheffield ?
(and in terms of largest area, even Doncaster gets in before Leeds! )

-extremely congested-go there and see for yourself.

Oh yes. And have the guided busways helped? Or the ring road? or the Motorway underpass? the station refurb with poor access onto the walkways outside? the fast multi-lane Harrogate Road dividing communities in two?
Trouble is, each of these previous "solutions" have been unwilling to clear enough land to make them REALLY succeed (eg Single track guided busways, and the motorway endng in a roundabout with traffic lights).
I fear than another new idea after these will have the same fate : if its only just funded just enough to be built, it will be another debatable "success".
If, on the other hand, if the Tram network, (or any other development) is FULLY funded, then it might make a real difference!
That's the real point, isn't it?

 

[Bayum]

Bayum - Leeds Supertram has nothing to do with the proposed joke trial on the Penistone line (which is about reducing costs on rural lines but is actually very flawed). If you want to discuss that, I suggest posting a new topic...

Erm, actually - yes it does. It was an idea to be used INSTEAD of the Supertram Project, as announced by metro a few years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.wymetro.com/News/08/080318-1.htm

*As well as increasing capacity, their reduced running costs could provide opportunities to develop new lines into town and city centres, extend routes into areas of growing employment and create a much-needed link to Leeds- Bradford International Airport.*

Just for Yorkie's benefit, who didn't believe that Metro were planning or had any idea to run them into Leeds off the mainline, because ONCE again, the big headed person who just loves to argue the toss with everyone seems to think im in the wrong with it all.

 

[yorkie]

Erm, actually - yes it does. It was an idea to be used INSTEAD of the Supertram Project, as announced by metro a few years ago.

Ah yes, we can't afford trams, so let's get more complex tram-trains, which are more expensive than basic trams, and replace the Leeds Supertram system with a tram-train system linking with the national rail network instead! Likely to happen? Erm, if pigs fly, maybe...

And your original post is inaccurate because you said "They are trying something like [Leeds Supertram] on the Penistone line" when in fact they aren't trying anything like that at all. You also admit that you think "[Tram trains are] already being trialled", when it appears to have stalled, this demonstrates that you perhaps don't know a huge amount about the project?

If you think this is realistically going to happen, perhaps you can give your thoughts on the cost of lowering all platforms to 'low floor' height, and if it is deemed unsuccessful, the cost of raising the platforms again? Also, will dedicated platforms be used at Sheffield with low floors and will this not have a negative impact on platforming at Sheffield if one platform is lowered and thus not able to accept normal height trains?

http://www.wymetro.com/News/08/080318-1.htm

*As well as increasing capacity, their reduced running costs could provide opportunities to develop new lines into town and city centres, extend routes into areas of growing employment and create a much-needed link to Leeds- Bradford International Airport.*

Just for Yorkie's benefit, who didn't believe that Metro were planning or had any idea to run them into Leeds off the mainline, because ONCE again, the big headed person who just loves to argue the toss with everyone seems to think im in the wrong with it all.

Interesting quote from Ryk Downes, the article doesn't appear to have a date but judging from the URL it is from March. I think he has realised that his quote is rather silly now. Look here https://www.libdems.org.uk/people/ryk-downes and you will see that he thinks guided trolleybuses could replace Supertram. Unlike tram-trains, a trolleybus system would actually be cheaper than a tram system. So, I think you are quoting old stories and people who have since changed their mind, perhaps?

I'll believe that metro had some crazy idea, sure, but I'm realistic enough to not believe that there will be tram-trains heading off some spur off the viaduct in Leeds into the city centre and then into the suburbs instead of the Supertram project. And also I realise that replacing some Pacers with tram-trains isn't going to make that daft idea any more likely either, and it was just an excuse to make people think it was a good idea. An excuse that appears to have been quietly dropped.

I maintain that the Penistone trials really do have nothing to do with Leeds Supertram. Just because Metro tried - laughably - to link the two back in March doesn't mean they are linked. The Government wants to reduce costs on rural lines, and the Stourbridge line is an example where they have done that. That doesn't mean trams are going to head off into the suburbs of Stourbridge. And it doesn't mean trams are going to head off the main line into places like Leeds or Huddersfield either, IMO.

 

[Bayum]

Oh, there's also plans for a possible trolleybus system to return to leeds as well, as an alternative to Supertram.

http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres/41A2FE53-6ECF-48C6-9D0C-E179B074E881/0/Directions6.pdf
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah yes, we can't afford trams, so let's get more complex tram-trains, which are more expensive than basic trams, and replace the Leeds Supertram system with a tram-train system linking with the national rail network instead! Likely to happen? Erm, if pigs fly, maybe...

And your original post is inaccurate because you said "They are trying something like [Leeds Supertram] on the Penistone line" when in fact they aren't trying anything like that at all. You also admit that you think "[Tram trains are] already being trialled", when it appears to have stalled, this demonstrates that you perhaps don't know a huge amount about the project?

If you think this is realistically going to happen, perhaps you can give your thoughts on the cost of lowering all platforms to 'low floor' height, and if it is deemed unsuccessful, the cost of raising the platforms again? Also, will dedicated platforms be used at Sheffield with low floors and will this not have a negative impact on platforming at Sheffield if one platform is lowered and thus not able to accept normal height trains?


Interesting quote from Ryk Downes, the article doesn't appear to have a date but judging from the URL it is from March. I think he has realised that his quote is rather silly now. Look here https://www.libdems.org.uk/people/ryk-downes and you will see that he thinks guided trolleybuses could replace Supertram. Unlike tram-trains, a trolleybus system would actually be cheaper than a tram system. So, I think you are quoting old stories and people who have since changed their mind, perhaps?

I'll believe that metro had some crazy idea, sure, but I'm realistic enough to not believe that there will be tram-trains heading off some spur off the viaduct in Leeds into the city centre and then into the suburbs instead of the Supertram project. And also I realise that replacing some Pacers with tram-trains isn't going to make that daft idea any more likely either, and it was just an excuse to make people think it was a good idea. An excuse that appears to have been quietly dropped.

Why are you saying all this AFTER i've already said about the Supertram project?? Why are you trying to make me look stupid?? If anyone in the right mind looks, they'll see you edited your post AFTER I had posted my original one about trolleybuses.

And you've seen the evidence for yourself Yorkie - I have you it. You wanted it, and I posted it - along with the link.

So, I think that's an apology you owe me now

 

[yorkie]

Why are you saying all this AFTER i've already said about the Supertram project?? Why are you trying to make me look stupid?? If anyone in the right mind looks, they'll see you edited your post AFTER I had posted my original one about trolleybuses.

Actually no, both posted at 02:11.

And you've seen the evidence for yourself Yorkie - I have you it. You wanted it, and I posted it - along with the link.

So, I think that's an apology you owe me now

On the contrary, you have just posted a link to a document that contains further evidence that a trolleybus system is proposed instead of Supertram. There's nothing in that document that backs up any of your claims. The document doesn't mention the Penistone trial at all - I wonder why...

 

[Mojo]

The Tram-Trains could potentially run on street in Leeds, connecting with other railway lines, but as far as I'm aware there are no definate plans for this to take place.

Hmmm. That'll be third after London, Birmingham, Glasgow and Sheffield ?
(and in terms of largest area, even Doncaster gets in before Leeds! )

Personally when talking about regional cities I prefer to look at the whole picture and include the City sub-region which I find puts it into context better. Geographically, the regional cities are quite small and very few railway lines actually stop when you reach this area. Using this method does put the sub-region in question 4th overall. For example the City of Bristol is rather small (pop. 416,400) but Greater Bristol has a population of over a million.

 

[Waverley125]

and by largest, most people tend to talk be population when referring to cities. the population with Leeds' city Limits is 761,000. Birmingham has 1,106,000; Manchester 450,000 and Glasgow 620,000. And by area, Leeds is a LOT bigger than Donny, mate.

The other solutions have been unsatisfactory, and this is precisely why we need the supertram, a fully funded and full-blooded public metro system.

And the tram-train trial does seem to be a lot more about lowering costs. There are NO PLANS to integrate the penistone line into Supertram at all. IMO a far better trial would have been on the south Sub in edinburgh-linking some of the most and least affluent areas of the city, and able to link into the new tram system at Haymarket and possibly towards Leith as well.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

And by area, Leeds is a LOT bigger than Donny, mate.

Doncaster Town Council area: 56,799hectares
Leeds City Council area: 55,173 hectares
(not much in it, I agree, and it is a matter of choosing which statistics to quote, as it always is with statistics!)

This table of 2001 census summarises the anomalies between pops within Town/City boundaries and within the corresponding Local Authority areas:
http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/Populations/CouncilsTable2.htm

and City pops ranked, again from statistics.gov.uk (2001 for Eng&Wales, 2004 for Scot):
1 London LON 7,172,091
2 Birmingham WML 970,892
3 Glasgow GLC 631,490
4 Liverpool MER 469,017
5 Leeds WYS 443,247
6 Sheffield SYS 439,866
7 Edinburgh CEB 435,540

(but I actually LIKE Leeds. Its just its transport system I've a problem with!)

 

[Waverley125]

well wikipedia says Leeds is the 3rd largest, so i suppose its where you look. Certainly Leeds seems bigger to me. And the Doncaster council area is bigger, but a large amount of it is open countryside.

 

[60081 50B]

Surly the debates should be Super Trams V Trolley Buses within the urban area inside the old Leeds City boundary - Or Tram Trains V Conventional rolling stock on inter urban commuting routes such as Huddersfield – Penistone – Sheffield or York – Harrogate – Leeds and not arguing about which statistic gives the correct population figure for Leeds or suggesting that the proposals coming from METRO were laughable without giving concrete evidence as to why they are laughable

Does anybody believe that the ftr is the answer to conjestion in Leeds

 

[Tom B]

Trams are already having a huge effect on public transport up here in Edinburgh. Problem is, it's not the one they wanted - the reliability of buses has gone down the pan. However, it does wonders for the local economy - you'd be wise to buy shares in Coneworks UK at the moment!

 

[Waverley125]

There was certainly a lot of building work on Leith Walk when i was last up in Edinburgh, causing a massive amount of congestion. Then again, if nothing's done congestion will just get worse in the long term. It really annoys me that the DfT like sitting on their handsw so much-if final go ahead had been given in 2004 lines the supertram could have been nearing completion round about now. Instead Leeds remains Europe's biggest city without any form of light rail network. Really takes the biscuit to go over to Germany and see towns the size of Worksop or Tamworth with trams while Leeds doesn't have any.