Leeds to Goole

[Mugby]

Looking at a 1979 timetable, I note that there were six trains per day in each direction on weekdays.

Am I correct in thinking that the reason the service was reduced to it's present one train per day was when Northern Spirit / Arriva Trains North East encountered staffing difficulties in the early 2000's?

How come the service was never restored? Is it ever likely to be? I'm sure I've read somewhere that there is a move to press for additional journeys.

Also, is there any regular freight traffic between Hensall Junction and Goole?

 

[balne-wonderer]

It's a single line from Hensall to Goole.

Passing through Gowdall (no station but very close to the road), Snaith station and Rawcliffe station. The service is extremley limited and although there is some freight it's also very limited.

I do believe believe at one point that the line was doubled but around the 80's it was reduced to single line.

Snaith is an ever expanding little town with plently of villages around it. That area is filled with lines witht he ECML passing close by, the freight lines to Drax and Eggborough, the Selby link from the ECML. However, Snaith itself has a very poor service (and for that matter, a very poor bus service)

 

[tbtc]

Am I correct in thinking that the reason the service was reduced to it's present one train per day was when Northern Spirit / Arriva Trains North East encountered staffing difficulties in the early 2000's?

I think that there was a lunchtime service in those days (as well as one morning and one teatime service) - I could be wrong though.

 

[Waverley125]

it's the sort of service that would make money if any were ever invested in it.

 

[neilmc]

Goole to Leeds can be covered by the X62 bus service on a two-hourly frequency, but as for the smaller intermediate stations they can just sit on a pretend rail map with a useless train service to match the useless bus service, though at least there IS a single return journey daily which is more than can be said for the Stalybridge-Stockport line.

 

[30907]

The service has operated in marginal time of the basic Leeds-Knottingley shuttle for years.

The lunchtime working went because it created a gap between Knottingley and Castleford (Glasshoughton aka Freeport opened around then). Wakefield-Knottingley was also recast (terminating at Kirkgate not Westgate).

The service is specified by Metro, were they needing to make economies?

 

[tbtc]

it's the sort of service that would make money if any were ever invested in it.

That'd make an interesting episode of Dragon's Den

 

[Welshman]

Goole was an important port in L & Y days.

Even in my time in Yorkshire [early 1960s], there used to be a dmu service every two hours or so from Bradford Exchange to Goole via the GN route to Wakefield Westgate[via Batley & Dewsbury Central], then Wakefield Kirkgate to Goole via Knottingley.

IIRC, that was withdrawn about 1964, and the service seems to have been reduced gradually since then.

 

[tirphil]

Looking at a 1979 timetable, I note that there were six trains per day in each direction on weekdays.

Am I correct in thinking that the reason the service was reduced to it's present one train per day was when Northern Spirit / Arriva Trains North East encountered staffing difficulties in the early 2000's?

How come the service was never restored? Is it ever likely to be? I'm sure I've read somewhere that there is a move to press for additional journeys.

Also, is there any regular freight traffic between Hensall Junction and Goole?

A limited number of EWS coal trains to/from Hull were routed via Drax Branch Junction, Goole, Gilberdyke for diversionary route knowledge up until June 2010. I used to work trains over that route myself. It may still happen but I am uncertain.

 

[yorksrob]

A shame really. If Goole can justify a service to Doncaster and Hull, it seems hard to believe that a more user friendly one towards Leeds wouldn't be well used.

 

[YorkshireBear]

A shame really. If Goole can justify a service to Doncaster and Hull, it seems hard to believe that a more user friendly one towards Leeds wouldn't be well used.

Thats exeactly what i thought. Hourly to Sheffield too!
Not sure on the infrastructure constraints etc but im sure it would be well used.

However, can we burden Northern more? As tbtc regularly says we need to focus on effectively serving what we have.

 

[yorksrob]

Thats exeactly what i thought. Hourly to Sheffield too!
Not sure on the infrastructure constraints etc but im sure it would be well used.

However, can we burden Northern more? As tbtc regularly says we need to focus on effectively serving what we have.

I think it's a case that if you have a service, the powers that be have to support it to an extent - or at least, they have to face the political consequences of not supporting it. Whereas, if you don't start that service in the first place, it'll be forgotten about and never happen.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Get the service started and let the higher powers worry about wider implications of stock procurement/subsidy etc later.

That's my view anyway.

 

[Sidious]

Before I moved from Yorkshire to the North East, I wanted to bash the route. At that time there was a departure at approximately 7:10 from Goole to Leeds. On arrival at Goole I was expecting to see a class 153, but was shocked at 2 x 156. I spread out over a table to enjoy the ride, with probably only 20 other passengers.

By Pontefract the train was full and standing.

This is now a parliamentary service, but unlike other services the two trains are timed to allow a viable commute from Goole (and intermediate stations to Knottingley) to Leeds out in the morning peak, and returning in the evening.

 

[yorksrob]

By Pontefract the train was full and standing.

I presume you got a few more at Snaith ? I'm sure an all day service could be sustained with something less than a couple of 156's.

 

[Sidious]

I presume you got a few more at Snaith ? I'm sure an all day service could be sustained with something less than a couple of 156's.

Yeah, I don't remember anyone getting on at Hensall, but wasn't paying much attention. Probably another 20 got on at Snaith, and a handful more at Whitley Bridge. By Castleford the coach I was in was 3/4 full.

The options would be I suppose, to extend the existing Leeds - Castleford service to and from Goole, or extend the same through to Hull.

Simply putting on a Goole - Castleford shuttle would probably not generate the numbers of passengers to make it viable - although as others have pointed out there are other villages such as Gowdall which could be served, and indeed Snaith has a reasonable population, and those wishing to take the train probably drive to Doncaster or Selby to do so - but it's like a lot of Parliamentary stations which are in terminal decline because of the vicious circle that no suitable trains mean no passengers which mean no trains are provided...

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, I don't remember anyone getting on at Hensall, but wasn't paying much attention. Probably another 20 got on at Snaith, and a handful more at Whitley Bridge. By Castleford the coach I was in was 3/4 full.

The options would be I suppose, to extend the existing Leeds - Castleford service to and from Goole, or extend the same through to Hull.

Simply putting on a Goole - Castleford shuttle would probably not generate the numbers of passengers to make it viable - although as others have pointed out there are other villages such as Gowdall which could be served, and indeed Snaith has a reasonable population, and those wishing to take the train probably drive to Doncaster or Selby to do so - but it's like a lot of Parliamentary stations which are in terminal decline because of the vicious circle that no suitable trains mean no passengers which mean no trains are provided...

Indeed. It would need an extension of the Leeds service which would give inhabitants of the intermediate stations the opportunity to use public transport.

 

[tbtc]

A shame really. If Goole can justify a service to Doncaster and Hull, it seems hard to believe that a more user friendly one towards Leeds wouldn't be well used.

Goole - Doncaster isn't a stand alone service, it's part of the line from Hull to Sheffield. If it were a stand alone service from Goole to Doncaster then it'd probably get nothing like the current passenger numbers (in the way that small places like Retford do well out of being on a direct route between bigger places).

By Pontefract the train was full and standing

By Castleford the coach I was in was 3/4 full

So it was emptying out as it got to Castleford?

 

[IanXC]

The options would be I suppose, to extend the existing Leeds - Castleford service to and from Goole, or extend the same through to Hull.

Perhaps the second option could be a solution to the ongoing problem of how to provide Hull with a half hourly service to Leeds?

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps the second option could be a solution to the ongoing problem of how to provide Hull with a half hourly service to Leeds?

I don't think that would be much use to people doing Hull - Leeds journeys to be honest. Currently Leeds - Goole takes 1 hour 18 minutes and running fast from Goole to Hull (calling Brough only) takes around 31 minutes. So stitch the two together and you get a through journey time of effectively 1 hour 50 minutes. I don't know about you but I'd stick to the fast TPE services rather than go via a route that takes an hour longer. I suppose if you drop some of the stops between Leeds and Goole (serve some on a two hourly basis) that could speed things up.

But if the goal is to provide Hull with a true half hourly service to Leeds this would do it on paper but in practice?

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps the second option could be a solution to the ongoing problem of how to provide Hull with a half hourly service to Leeds?

Leeds - Hull is generally under an hour.

Leeds - Goole takes almost 1h15. Add on about half an hour for the Goole - Hull bit and it'd be a fairly unattractive Leeds - Hull journey time.

In comparison, the Selby - Leeds services only take around ten minutes longer than the TPE services (due to stopping at South Milford, Garforth etc), so extending these should mean a Leeds - Hull journey of just over an hour (as well as providing better connections at Selby for the York services).

ETA - Ainsworth74 beat me to it! Oops!

 

[IanXC]

I don't think that would be much use to people doing Hull - Leeds journeys to be honest.

Well wasn't I half asleep this morning! I suppose some increase could be obtained by timing for faster units but its still unlikely that would be competitive.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not sure faster units would be viable- AFAIK most Northern diagrams are timed throughout for 75mph stock (the exceptions being the Sheffield & Nottingham semi-fasts) to allow whatever's available to be used. If 158s were to be dedicated to a further route I imagine there'd be commuters from Calderdale and Craven not too happy when a 144 wobbles in where previously there'd be a 158. Sticking with 75mph stock (There'd probably only be any benefit from 158s if the service WAS going to run through to Hull anyway) makes more sense.

How many more units would Northern need to extend the Leeds-Knottingley to Goole anyway? I know that a couple of years back the weekday diagrams were Leeds-Knottingley-Wakefield-Knottingley-Leeds, and this would no longer be an option. Goole-Knottingley is 35mins or so, so if Northern had another 2 DMUs it'd be do-able. Problem is of course where will these DMUs come from now that there appears to be no sign of cascades until the various electrification projects are well underway (not to mention that Northern's existing services need more capacity before they start adding new ones). But it'd be great if there was a way to make it work.

 

[yorksrob]

Goole - Doncaster isn't a stand alone service, it's part of the line from Hull to Sheffield. If it were a stand alone service from Goole to Doncaster then it'd probably get nothing like the current passenger numbers (in the way that small places like Retford do well out of being on a direct route between bigger places).

But don't forget, Doncaster - Goole gets a half hourly service with one a semi-fast 158 to reflect its through line status.

We'd only be talking an hourly or less Pacer for the Leeds - Goole local. Perhaps it could go on the Christmas list for when some of these North West routes are electrified.

 

[Max]

I think part of the problem is that Snaith (and Goole for that matter) lie outside the Metro area. The line naturally links in with the (already poor) service on the Knottingley route, but any extensions to services would probably have to be subsidised initially. It wouldn't be in Metro's interests to provide extra cash, and I always feel like the Goole area is a slightly neglected and forgotten part of the East Riding. It is spatially remote from Beverley where the council is based and extremely peripheral in terms of the authority's area.

 

[yorksrob]

I think part of the problem is that Snaith (and Goole for that matter) lie outside the Metro area. The line naturally links in with the (already poor) service on the Knottingley route, but any extensions to services would probably have to be subsidised initially. It wouldn't be in Metro's interests to provide extra cash, and I always feel like the Goole area is a slightly neglected and forgotten part of the East Riding. It is spatially remote from Beverley where the council is based and extremely peripheral in terms of the authority's area.

Indeed. There needs to be some more joined up thinking when it comes to "cross border" services.

 

[317 forever]

I was in the area in August 2003 and think there were 3 trips a day: one each peak and the other around lunchtime. I rode from Castleford to Goole and was the only passenger beyond Knottingley.

To digress a bit, at Castleford someone had just dumped a paper, and in the business section was the news that Go-Ahead had just bought Wilts & Dorset. I therefore named the tale as "from Goole to Poole"!

 

[Waverley125]

the best solution would be to re-open the Askern line and instate two new lines-a Castleford avoider from Methley Junc to Glasshoughton, and a chord from the Castleford-Sherburn in Elmet line to the Dearne Valley line.

Then run:

Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley-Goole
Leeds-Pontefract-Knottingley-Doncaster

 

[bluenoxid]

Perhaps the second option could be a solution to the ongoing problem of how to provide Hull with a half hourly service to Leeds?

Easiest solution would be to extend the current Selby terminator to Hull. If they wanted to create an additional route, running via Castleford would be the easiest solution. In fact, one option to maintain capacity on the East of Leeds line (if Hull is not electrified) is to send both half hourly stoppers to York as Electric units and send the Selby services via Castleford and/or fast through.

Indeed. There needs to be some more joined up thinking when it comes to "cross border" services.

Certainly is. There really needs to be some effective lobbying of certain councils to invest in rear end areas of county's despite being in a good location. I am hopeful that this area could benefit from proposals to devolve some tax raising to local councils.

I would also like to offer some areas a referendum to join PTE's (eg Craven, Harrogate, York (and immediate area), South West Lancashire, Cheshire, Selby, Lower Northumberland, Durham, etc.

the best solution would be to re-open the Askern line and instate two new lines-a Castleford avoider from Methley Junc to Glasshoughton, and a chord from the Castleford-Sherburn in Elmet line to the Dearne Valley line.

Then run:

Leeds-Castleford-Knottingley-Goole
Leeds-Pontefract-Knottingley-Doncaster

Some quick options might be to fund PPM units to Knottingley and ultimately Castleford if they can develop the safety case to run them alongside freight services. In fact it would make a very useful tram train area if they could work up a case that includes Wakefield to Knottingley services.

Opening Junction 34A on the Motorway and boosting services to Glasshoughton is another option but I would prefer the first option because the rail infrastructure is set and ready to go.

 

[Waverley125]

Some quick options might be to fund PPM units to Knottingley and ultimately Castleford if they can develop the safety case to run them alongside freight services. In fact it would make a very useful tram train area if they could work up a case that includes Wakefield to Knottingley services.

Opening Junction 34A on the Motorway and boosting services to Glasshoughton is another option but I would prefer the first option because the rail infrastructure is set and ready to go.

ATEOTD this lien should have a fairly good CBR for electrification, if one assumes it as part of the Hallam line, and includes Horbury Junction-Mirfield. Given the level of freight through Knottingley to the power stations, its current use as a diversionary Leeds-London route, and the commute potential into Leeds, I'd imagine you could easily sustain services. Especially so if some of the proposed stations along the line (Hunslet, Stourton, Methley Junction, Clarence Park, Castleford Hightown, Horbury Bridge, Thornhill Lees, New Fryston, and Brotherton & Byram) were opened to generate new traffic.

2tph Leeds-Goole (

 

[Sidious]

I always feel like the Goole area is a slightly neglected and forgotten part of the East Riding. It is spatially remote from Beverley where the council is based and extremely peripheral in terms of the authority's area.

On a side note, Goole was in the West Riding of Yorkshire until the formation of Humberside in 1974. When Humberside was abolished as a county in 1996, Goole was initially proposed to become part of Selby District within North Yorkshire.

Eventually it was given a local referendum as to whether they should go into the East Riding, become part of Doncaster Metropolitan Borough, join Selby Borough or join North Lincolnshire (despite that it had never been a Lincs town). In the end it was agreed to merge it into the East Riding as this meant that the district Police and Fire services could remain under Humberside, rather than transferring them to either South Yorkshire or North Yorkshire.