Leeds to Wigan service

[Andyh82]

When this service first started I believe most journeys ran to Wigan Wallgate

In recent years it seems the majority of journeys ran to Wigan North Western instead

Now it looks like all journeys run to Wigan Wallgate again

When did this change occur, was it the December 22 service change, and why do they keep changing which station to terminate at in Wigan?

 

[175001]

It was the December 22 change that saw them go back into Wallgate.

Why? I've no idea. Probably as it operationally easier to go into Wallgate for shunting and dispatch reasons. Also, Wallgate has traditionally been the main station for services towards Manchester

 

[cjbirkett]

If I remember correctly certain services on this route at one time had 153s as part of the consist and these were not cleared to Wallgate, therefore the services diagrammed to include 153s were routed into North Western.

As 153s are no longer on the scene this arrangement is no longer needed

Best wishes

 

[Kite159]

Probably as it operationally easier to go into Wallgate for shunting and dispatch reasons

Also potentially revenue reasons as Wallgate has ticket barriers whereas North Western is open.

A glance on RTT shows that the trains generally have an hour 10 minutes turnaround at Wigan (which I believe changed in December as previously the trains had 10 minutes before heading back towards Leeds meaning time-keeping wasn't the best

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A glance on RTT shows that the trains generally have an hour 10 minutes turnaround at Wigan (which I believe changed in December as previously the trains had 10 minutes before heading back towards Leeds meaning time-keeping wasn't the best

10 minute turnaround time at Wallgate is somewhat ambitious due to the need to perform a shunt manoeuvre hence such terminating arrangements being better at North Western. On the other hand extended turnarounds at Wallgate mean having to hold the train somewhere away from the platforms during which time it needs to have the driver on board so is relatively more expensive in crewing costs. The ideal would be a turnaround of 15-20 minutes which could be accommodated at either station. But pathing in the Salford/Manchester areas will ultimately dictate which approach is taken.

 

[Brubulus]

10 minute turnaround time at Wallgate is somewhat ambitious due to the need to perform a shunt manoeuvre hence such terminating arrangements being better at North Western. On the other hand extended turnarounds at Wallgate mean having to hold the train somewhere away from the platforms during which time it needs to have the driver on board so is relatively more expensive in crewing costs. The ideal would be a turnaround of 15-20 minutes which could be accommodated at either station. But pathing in the Salford/Manchester areas will ultimately dictate which approach is taken.

A 1h10 min turnaround is the sort of thing that could be cut and be an easy cost saving without properly affecting the service. It should be moved to North Western for said purpose as that makes performing such a turnaround more reliable.
Cutting turnarounds is a far better way to deliver cost savings for the taxpayer than cutting services.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If I remember correctly certain services on this route at one time had 153s as part of the consist and these were not cleared to Wallgate, therefore the services diagrammed to include 153s were routed into North Western.

As 153s are no longer on the scene this arrangement is no longer needed

Best wishes

The service hasn't existed alongside 153s for quite some time, however the 1 195 diagram that run it may have caused this, as I think they aren't cleared into Wallgate. (I saw a 195 sent down towards Wallgate during disruption recently and it was in Northwestern instead)

 

[scrapy]

In May 2018 it was a Leeds to Southport and a Stalybridge to Wigan NW service. These became a Stalybridge to Southport and a Leeds to Wigan NW in 2019 before 769s were introduced.

When Stalybridge electrification is complete it may revert back to the former.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In May 2018 it was a Leeds to Southport and a Stalybridge to Wigan NW service. These became a Stalybridge to Southport and a Leeds to Wigan NW in 2019 before 769s were introduced.

When Stalybridge electrification is complete it may revert back to the former.

I think that'd only work with both Stalybridge and Lostock Jn - Wigan Station Jn electrified (well it could be done with 769s)

 

[Andyh82]

The service hasn't existed alongside 153s for quite some time, however the 1 195 diagram that run it may have caused this, as I think they aren't cleared into Wallgate. (I saw a 195 sent down towards Wallgate during disruption recently and it was in Northwestern instead)

Does this mean the 195 diagram on this route has gone as well and it’s back being wall to wall 158s? Presumably the 3 car ones?

 

[Neptune]

Does this mean the 195 diagram on this route has gone as well and it’s back being wall to wall 158s? Presumably the 3 car ones?

All booked either 3 or 4 car 158 now.

 

[Geeves]

One of the reasons the Leeds train no longer goes to Southport was the ten minute turn around at Southport and the fact it never made to Southport, even if was 20L it was cut

Longer turn arounds especially on Calder Valley work mean the service is now one of the most reliable on the corridor. Every single train has left on time from Wigan Wallgate today bar one which was 5L. Southport being split to run to Oxford Rd too is perfect now.

 

[Starmill]

I think that'd only work with both Stalybridge and Lostock Jn - Wigan Station Jn electrified

Likely to be the same timetable change that brings both of these in anyway.

 

[scrapy]

I think that'd only work with both Stalybridge and Lostock Jn - Wigan Station Jn electrified (well it could be done with 769s)

Yes sorry, I meant electrification all the way from Wigan to Stalybridge

One of the reasons the Leeds train no longer goes to Southport was the ten minute turn around at Southport and the fact it never made to Southport, even if was 20L it was cut

Longer turn arounds especially on Calder Valley work mean the service is now one of the most reliable on the corridor. Every single train has left on time from Wigan Wallgate today bar one which was 5L. Southport being split to run to Oxford Rd too is perfect now.

Extending the Leeds and Blackburn's to Southport on current timings would still give decent turnaround times at Southport (nearly an hour on each, interworking is unlikely imo). 6 car Stalybridge and Oxford Rd to Wigan NW I think is most likely using 323s, given platform extensions are currently happening to allow this.

 

[175001]

The service hasn't existed alongside 153s for quite some time, however the 1 195 diagram that run it may have caused this, as I think they aren't cleared into Wallgate. (I saw a 195 sent down towards Wallgate during disruption recently and it was in Northwestern instead)

195s definitely cleared into Wallgate.... I did my training on them there!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

195s definitely cleared into Wallgate.... I did my training on them there!

oh that's interesting, I guess the 195 was sent into Northwestern due to the disruption at Wallgate (delayed 769 holding up the 195, another Southport train and maybe more, I forgot), the original disruption was by Leeds.

 

[AMD]

195s are cleared in passenger service into Wallgate, however no further towards either Kirkby or Southport.
Two other reasons for the Leeds service going into Wallgate vs NW are that the Leeds service was suffering poor performance from Wigan due to a tight timetable across Station Junction to gain the Hindley line, it was regularly held for other services going into Wallgate. A financial implication is that Northern pay Avanti a station charge for services using NW, as everything from NW has to be dispatched, whereas Wallgate is self dispatch.
As someone has noted above there is also the turnaround time and timetable recovery aspects, in which having the unit run through Wallgate and sit in the down siding has helped performance - also capacity at NW isn't brilliant, especially when there's disruption somewhere else on the WCML and things get dumped at Wigan.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

the Leeds service was suffering poor performance from Wigan due to a tight timetable across Station Junction to gain the Hindley line, it was regularly held for other services going into Wallgate.

Definitely was, I've sat on many a train there and watched a 769 get priority.

 

[plugwash]

why do they keep changing which station to terminate at in Wigan?

Ultimately, between the two stations, there are only four platforms connected to the hindly lines. Platforms 1 and 3 at North western (2 was sacrificied to allow longer trains in 3) and platforms 1 and 2 at wallgate.

So I'd imagine a lot simply comes down to what platforms are available at any given time.