Leeds Trams?

[JordR]

Think we'll actually see them this time?

Rishi Sunak 'to deliver' Leeds mass transit tram system after HS2 train link axed north of Birmingham

Leeds will get its “own tram network” as consolation for the HS2 link to the city being scrapped.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has announced the Government will support a series of transport schemes after cutting HS2 north of Birmingham and has pledged to “reinvest every single penny, £36 billion, in hundreds of new transport projects in the North and the Midlands, across the country”.

A wider West Yorkshire mass transit network has been in the planning stages for years...

 

[Neptune]

I’d like to think so but I have so many doubts. Is it a kneejerk promise just to get the regions onside after the cancellation of HS2?

The West Yorkshire mayor didn’t exactly inspire confidence on Look North last night. When repeatedly asked if the schemes for West Yorkshire are good news all she could do is rattle on about how bad it is that HS2 isn’t coming north and that the £2 flat bus fare was her idea anyway. I don’t remember her being this worked up when the Leeds leg of HS2 was cancelled.

The presenter would then say ‘but despite that are the announced schemes to replace it good for West Yorkshire she didn’t answer and defaulted back to her fury on behalf of Manchester.

Shouldn’t be surprised, in the time she’s been mayor I haven’t seen her actually do anything apart from the £2 bus fares which I believe are widespread and not just limited to West Yorkshire and kiss the backsides of other mayors plus Susan Hinchcliffe (the appallingly bad leader of Bradford council).

So in answer to the question no I don’t think it will happen. All bluster to appease people then quietly dropped due to ‘lack of funds’. The West Yorkshire mayor certainly isn’t interested so a good start for Rishi to save some money in West Yorkshire.

 

[LLivery]

The fact they keep calling it a 'mass transit' rather than tram rings alarm bells to me; it allows it to be watered down to a bus. In fact, in the vision document published last year, that's exactly what is possible:

With its own brand and identity, typically Mass Transit would use one or more of modern high-capacity buses, trams and tram-train vehicles.

The same document breaks down the massive 'possible network' map that they published and every single route lists a bus as a possible option.

Rather than doing some massive crayoning, they should just do 1 or 2 simple tram routes centered on Leeds, with further routes possible, and push for funding what's needed to get Leeds a high frequency suburban rail.

 

[Ianigsy]

I was only thinking last night that I’m 51 and have worked in Leeds since 1997 so it would be interesting to see whether this is up and running during my working life.

The difference from previous schemes is that it’s a West Yorkshire scheme rather than a Leeds one so there are benefits for the likes of the Spen Valley and the Five Towns.

Rather than doing some massive crayoning, they should just do 1 or 2 simple tram routes centered on Leeds, with further routes possible, and push for funding what's needed to get Leeds a high frequency suburban rail.

Metrolink shows that the hardest and most expensive part is getting city centres done, although part of the problem with Leeds is that there’s a sizeable chunk of the north and northeastern part of the city (and some of the most well-heeled areas) where there aren’t the old rail formations to use.

 

[The Ham]

watered down to a bus

Indeed, not even a new bus route one single extra bus.

 

[Farigiraf]

What about a West Yorks guided busway? Cheaper + avoids Rishi's siderodromophobia

 

[AndrewE]

What about a West Yorks guided busway? Cheaper + avoids Rishi's siderodromophobia

Really? The Cambridge one would have been cheaper and better as a railway! (and I'm not sure the Bradford one is of much use over bus lanes and priority traffic lights.)

 

[Farigiraf]

Really? The Cambridge one would have been cheaper

No

and better

From a train bias point of view of course, but heavy rail wouldn't cope with 10 minute frequency

I do wonder if a tram would've been better though, it could've been extended further as a tram train (although if Edinburgh's extension which is just tracks on a long road costs that much I'd dread to think about Cambridge and its bendy small streets)

 

[Andyh82]

Is there even a current plan for a “Leeds Tram”?

I thought it was now “West Yorkshire Mass Transit” which to be honest I think the mayor only came up with so she can spend all her term complaining that the Tories wouldn’t fund the ludicrously large scheme and therefore actually do nothing.

 

[LLivery]

I was only thinking last night that I’m 51 and have worked in Leeds since 1997 so it would be interesting to see whether this is up and running during my working life.

The difference from previous schemes is that it’s a West Yorkshire scheme rather than a Leeds one so there are benefits for the likes of the Spen Valley and the Five Towns.


Metrolink shows that the hardest and most expensive part is getting city centres done, although part of the problem with Leeds is that there’s a sizeable chunk of the north and northeastern part of the city (and some of the most well-heeled areas) where there aren’t the old rail formations to use.

And Manchester isn't the only one of course. It's a shame, but it does look like you could achieve segregated traffic quite a lot in the east (Gipton, Seacroft) by using road mediums and edges of grassland, though. Do an easy route first to prove it works

 

[YorksLad12]

It's supposed to be the appropraite mode for the route/geography. A tram, very-light rail, bus rapid transit or something else. You're probably get a tram on the Bradford-Leeds and Leeds-east Leeds bits, but not necessarily on Bradford-Spen Valley-Dewsbury, and almost certainly not on the bits from 2030 onwards. I thinkthere's a consultation due next year when they submit the Outline Business Case

And Manchester isn't the only one of course. It's a shame, but it does look like you could achieve segregated traffic quite a lot in the east (Gipton, Seacroft) by using road mediums and edges of grassland, though. Do an easy route first to prove it works

Back in the 1990s (really) I'd suggested at a meeting that building guideways would get people used to the idea of segregated corridors. Then you stick in the poles, upgrade it to a tram. Leeds wanted the big bang approach rather than boiling frogs.

 

[507 001]

but heavy rail wouldn't cope with 10 minute frequency

Are you sure about that?

 

[LLivery]

Back in the 1990s (really) I'd suggested at a meeting that building guideways would get people used to the idea of segregated corridors. Then you stick in the poles, upgrade it to a tram. Leeds wanted the big bang approach rather than boiling frogs.

Makes perfect sense, but seems the idea of a big project hasn't gone. We need to learn from our big infra mistakes.

 

[317 forever]

What about a West Yorks guided busway? Cheaper + avoids Rishi's siderodromophobia

New guided busways could use electric buses, which would be more flexible but no more polluting than trams.

As a result, I doubt many new tram lines will be built but some extensions to existing tram lines might still be.

 

[WAB]

New guided busways could use electric buses, which would be more flexible but no more polluting than trams.

As a result, I doubt many new tram lines will be built but some extensions to existing tram lines might still be.

Yes, but they're buses so will be nowhere near as highly used as trams or light rail.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

New guided busways could use electric buses, which would be more flexible but no more polluting than trams.

As a result, I doubt many new tram lines will be built but some extensions to existing tram lines might still be.

If by "electric buses" you mean the same sort of electric buses we used to have in West Yorkshire (Bradford kept theirs until the 1970s), then great. If it's these silly newfangled battery buses (which are overweight and inherently inefficient), not so much. It still baffles me that the powers that be have all jumped in on battery mania when we've known about a much more efficient way of running zero-emission public transport for well over a century. Proper trolleybuses (with small batteries for diversionary purposes) would be a much more sensible solution.

 

[daodao]

If by "electric buses" you mean the same sort of electric buses we used to have in West Yorkshire (Bradford kept theirs until the 1970s), then great. If it's these silly newfangled battery buses (which are overweight and inherently inefficient), not so much. It still baffles me that the powers that be have all jumped in on battery mania when we've known about a much more efficient way of running zero-emission public transport for well over a century. Proper trolleybuses (with small batteries for diversionary purposes) would be a much more sensible solution.

There was a proposal for a trolleybus system in Leeds after the tram scheme proposal was discarded in 2005. After initial preliminary approval, it was also discarded in 2016. I don't expect to see a trolleybus ever again on British roads. All current trolleybuses are built for left-hand drive only; the last right-hand drive trolleybuses in regular use were scrapped in Wellington, New Zealand in 2017.

 

[Randomer]

What about a West Yorks guided busway? Cheaper + avoids Rishi's siderodromophobia

Like the one steadily decreasing in length on the A64 / York road as not enough buses now use it and a bus lane is seen as more useful? I did laugh when Cambridge opened and some of the press were calling it "a UK first."

Honestly some of the Leeds bus routes are slightly changed versions of the old tram lines. A tram system using the routes of the 2 and 3 buses on one side of the centre and the 3 on the other side makes far too much sense to ever happen. A second line out to Headingley could then follow if funding allowed. The roads are even wide enough in some areas for separated running, on the old tram rights of way on the centre of the road funnily enough...

I honestly don't think a Leeds to Bradford via

The trolleybus route that got to the proposal stage was great for the university but didn't serve even close to the densest usage routes.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There was a proposal for a trolleybus system in Leeds after the tram scheme proposal was discarded in 2005. After initial preliminary approval, it was also discarded in 2016. I don't expect to see a trolleybus ever again on British roads. All current trolleybuses are built for left-hand drive only; the last right-hand drive trolleybuses in regular use were scrapped in Wellington, New Zealand in 2017.

I agree it's unlikely we'll see trolleybuses, but the lack of any current RHD ones isn't a deal-breaker. Much like conventional buses or trams, the versions offered by manufacturers are generally pretty flexible. In the various tram threads there's always talk of "off the shelf" types, but there's almost always some degree of customisation for each customer. They aren't built speculatively and parked up in a dealership like cars or vans.

Given that Stadler managed to build new trains for the Glasgow Subway with it's unique track gauge and rather tight loading gauge, it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that manufacturers would be prepared to build a fleet of RHD trolleybuses. You could even modify the design for an existing range of battery buses. It might cost a little more than the standard models but it's hardly reinventing the wheel.

 

[bluenoxid]

My suggestion would be to focus on one route initially and only go as far north as St James’s Hospital/the University.

 

[WAB]

My suggestion would be to focus on one route initially and only go as far north as St James’s Hospital/the University.

Going a bit further up to Headingley would be very valuable in terms of student numbers and would be a ready-made market to tap into. As it is, there probably isn't much of a market for just the university.

 

[daodao]

Going a bit further up to Headingley would be very valuable in terms of student numbers and would be a ready-made market to tap into. As it is, there probably isn't much of a market for just the university.

The problem with attempting to reopen even parts of the long-defunct Leeds tramway is that the reserved track sections were in the least-used outer segments of the former network (e.g. along York Road to Cross Gates/Hulton, from Harehills to Roundhay, and to Middleton), but a viable network would require construction along major arterial routes into the city centre where trams would be a nuisance.

 

[GardenRail]

Think we'll actually see them this time?

Rishi Sunak 'to deliver' Leeds mass transit tram system after HS2 train link axed north of Birmingham

Leeds will get its “own tram network” as consolation for the HS2 link to the city being scrapped.

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk

Nope. It's alright him saying this the other day. But why doesn't he ever get asked when work will start.....

 

[AndrewE]

Surely the thing we have learnt from trying to reinstate trams in Victorian cities is that it is only "cost-effective" as part of a major urban renewal programme.
Sheffield, Edinburgh, probably others, went massively over-budget because you absolutely have to replace virtuallly all the in-road infrastructure, and nobody really knows where it all is - or what the possibly redundant things they come across are. "Rail" costs end up being quite a small proportion of a completely un-knowable total, which is why politicians can't bring themselves to commit to doing it.

Of course it brings long-term benefits (if the pipes and cables are done right) but nobody will add the value of that really worthwhile gain into the equation. Of course trams should be done where the traffic flows and other circumstances justify it, but it has to be done recognising all the benefits that will follow, and accepting the costs of getting there.
Hence I very much doubt that a scheme would be built - in full anyway.

 

[Farigiraf]

How about premetro like in Brussels? Streets are big enough in Bradford to run them, then onto the rails tram train style through New Pudsey/Pudsey into Kirkstall/Headingley where it goes underground through Leeds's Victorian streets?

This time West Yorkshire may actually have the money for this unlike Cambridge's plans

 

[Busaholic]

If by "electric buses" you mean the same sort of electric buses we used to have in West Yorkshire (Bradford kept theirs until the 1970s), then great. If it's these silly newfangled battery buses (which are overweight and inherently inefficient), not so much. It still baffles me that the powers that be have all jumped in on battery mania when we've known about a much more efficient way of running zero-emission public transport for well over a century. Proper trolleybuses (with small batteries for diversionary purposes) would be a much more sensible solution.

Trolleybuses are making a comeback in many different parts of the world, never having been away in some places. Some systems encompass wireless running for stretches to address aesthetic concerns about overhead versus heritage. The lack of a right handed drive trolleybus is the least of the reasons why they've never caught on again over here, one or more models would miraculously appear if the U.K. were suddenly in the market for them again, perhaps even doubledeckers. I understand many in Wellington, N.Z. regret the disappearance of trolleys from their streets, but it was more the earthquake than politics that did for them there.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Trolleybuses are making a comeback in many different parts of the world, never having been away in some places. Some systems encompass wireless running for stretches to address aesthetic concerns about overhead versus heritage. The lack of a right handed drive trolleybus is the least of the reasons why they've never caught on again over here, one or more models would miraculously appear if the U.K. were suddenly in the market for them again, perhaps even doubledeckers. I understand many in Wellington, N.Z. regret the disappearance of trolleys from their streets, but it was more the earthquake than politics that did for them there.

Indeed that was my point when responding to the post that suggested it was a major stumbling block. In fact if they were to run on a completely segregated alignment you could just use off-the-shelf European ones with island platforms at stops... though at that point you may as well build a proper tramway!

The problem with attempting to reopen even parts of the long-defunct Leeds tramway is that the reserved track sections were in the least-used outer segments of the former network (e.g. along York Road to Cross Gates/Hulton, from Harehills to Roundhay, and to Middleton), but a viable network would require construction along major arterial routes into the city centre where trams would be a nuisance.

Perhaps forcing motorists to share the space with trams would be a more effective way of reducing car use? If the trams have priority at junctions, them being a "nuisance" to motorists would be a good thing.
It's well known that adding road capacity (extra lanes) adds traffic, so by the same logic removing lanes in order put tram tracks there should reduce traffic. There's all sorts of things introduced which are a "nuisance" to motorists, if that nuisance is also a solution then it's a problem that solves itself.

 

[D6130]

Trolleybuses are making a comeback in many different parts of the world, never having been away in some places. Some systems encompass wireless running for stretches to address aesthetic concerns about overhead versus heritage.

I was in Genova, Italy, a few days ago - where they have modern bi-mode bendy trolleybuses, which operate electrically in the narrow streets of the city centre....then switch to diesel power for the more recent route extensions into the suburbs. Not 100% ideal for achieving 'Net Zero'....but it's a start.

 

[AndrewE]

Indeed that was my point when responding to the post that suggested it was a major stumbling block. In fact if they were to run on a completely segregated alignment you could just use off-the-shelf European ones with island platforms at stops... though at that point you may as well build a proper tramway!

Whilst trams would be nice, I have given up on the UK's willingness to invest serious amounts of money in urban renewal or public transport. We get (slightly) better buses in some places - if we are lucky - whilst those in power sit on their hands or actively manage finances so that the bulk of the network continue to decline.
I used to hope that trolleybuses could give us the "sparks effect" of trams without having to do much under the road surface, but I'm afraid that the "not invented here" strand of politician and administrator will also veto any development in this direction as too foreign.

How about premetro like in Brussels? Streets are big enough in Bradford to run them, then onto the rails tram train style through New Pudsey/Pudsey into Kirkstall/Headingley where it goes underground through Leeds's Victorian streets?

Premetros are for when you have such a thriving ridership or tram service that you need to work towards the next step, segregating the vehicles from the crowds on the streets. We aren't even off the starting blocks for that yet, and if we need more capacity to avoid road trains stiching up junctions then we just have to put some double-deckers back in.
On top of renewing all the services under the road, premetros have the additional costs of a) being in a tunnel which you have to dig and b) having to have signalling.

 

[Busaholic]

I was in Genova, Italy, a few days ago - where they have modern bi-mode bendy trolleybuses, which operate electrically in the narrow streets of the city centre....then switch to diesel power for the more recent route extensions into the suburbs. Not 100% ideal for achieving 'Net Zero'....but it's a start.

I wasn't going to suggest the bi-mode model for the reason you stated i.e. it'd never get approved here now. Other countries appear more pragmatic and perhaps more in tune with the general public sense that high-mindedness can be the enemy of achieving a solution which can improve substantially on what went before.

Leeds's first generation trolleybuses disappeared in the relatively early year of 1928 and were a tiny part of the city's transport networks. It would be good to see them return and be a success this time, perhaps heralding a more general return of this mode of transport to Great Britain. Let Leeds give Manchester a run for its money for once!