Leeds - Whitby

[Starmill]

Hi all

I'm looking for a Saturday day return on the above with a 16-25 Railcard, with all tickets considered, and an emphasis on keeping the price low.

So far I've come up with the following, and I'd be really grateful if anyone could confirm its actually valid? It's... surprisingly cheap given the distance, so perhaps there won't be many further options to reduce the price further? I don't know...

Anyway:

Leeds - Pontefract Stations Any Permitted CDR @ £2.80
Church Fenton - Whitby Not Via Darlingtn CDR @ £8.80

I'd be using the Northern stopping service from Leeds to York, then TPE to Middlesbrough and then thence to the Whitby line.

I also just wondered if anyone could please tell me if you have any idea if This Train will arrive at York in front of This One? If it doesn't I may be scuppered for the 10:38 from Middlesbrough...

As always, thanks for all the help

starmill

 

[Crossover]

I'd suggest the Northern will arrive ahead - once they are out in front from Leeds, there is no easy way to pass IIRC

 

[Searle]

If you arrive into Platform 4 of Church Fenton then you'll be blocking the Fast Line (I don't think it's possible to go to Platform 2), so you should be ok, I highly doubt you'd diverge from it from there, although I'm not certain. I'd say you'd be ok

 

[Oscar]

I wouldn't be worried about missing the TPE service to Middlesbrough as there is a later one (York d. 0926) which should easily get you there in time (8 minutes connection time + ca. 5 minutes padding before Middlesbrough).

 

[crispy1978]

The only thing is Platform 7>Platform is over the bridge, so you'll need your skates on!

 

[johnnychips]

I wouldn't be worried about missing the TPE service to Middlesbrough as there is a later one (York d. 0926) which should easily get you there in time (8 minutes connection time + ca. 5 minutes padding before Middlesbrough).

This was ten late when I caught it and the TPE guard rang Middlesbrough to ask them to hold the Whitby train, which they did: it left about three mins late.

 

[John @ home]

perhaps there won't be many further options to reduce the price further

Agreed. It's good value. I used a similar combination on 1 October to take a 5-year-old from Leeds to Saltburn for the day when I was appointed childminder because his school was closed.

I also just wondered if anyone could please tell me if you have any idea if This Train will arrive at York in front of This One?

It 0820 arrival from Blackpool will usually get to York several minutes before the 0821 arrival from Manchester Airport. An occasion when it wouldn't would be when Platform 7 was not immediately free to receive it. The track layout on the approach to York does allow the train from Manchester Airport to overtake it if necessary.

It's worth a shot, but you may find you need to get a York - Whitby bus if you're unlucky.

I wouldn't be worried about missing the TPE service to Middlesbrough as there is a later one (York d. 0926) which should easily get you there in time

Good point, Oscar. I'd forgotten that, even though I used the 0926 from York on 1 October!

The only thing is Platform 7>Platform is over the bridge, so you'll need your skates on!

I find it quicker to use the underpass, near the buffers at Platform 7.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Leeds - Pontefract Stations Any Permitted CDR @ £2.80
Church Fenton - Whitby Not Via Darlingtn CDR @ £8.80

My initial thought was that the Leeds - Pontefract ticket wasn't valid. This however falls into one of the traps created by the new routeing guide rules, and works in your favour!

The new routeing guide shows that the only permitted routes from Leeds to Pontefract are by map WY, which does not include going via Church Fenton.

NRES says that it is valid via Church Fenton however.

The argument that will no doubt appear is that you are free to choose which of the Pontefract Stations you wish to travel to, but I don't buy this and previous correspondence from ATOC has said so too. Unless the ticket is clearly printed as a destination of Pontefract Baghill - which I'm pretty sure it won't do - then technically I think going there isn't valid. But as NRES says it is, then it is!

 

[Starmill]

The new routeing guide shows that the only permitted routes from Leeds to Pontefract are by map WY, which does not include going via Church Fenton.

NRES says that it is valid via Church Fenton however.

The argument that will no doubt appear is that you are free to choose which of the Pontefract Stations you wish to travel to, but I don't buy this and previous correspondence from ATOC has said so too. Unless the ticket is clearly printed as a destination of Pontefract Baghill - which I'm pretty sure it won't do - then technically I think going there isn't valid. But as NRES says it is, then it is!

Yes indeed this is what I was thinking. Judging by BRFares tickets print to Pontefract Stations, which is interesting when one is on a different line...

 

[34D]

The argument that will no doubt appear is that you are free to choose which of the Pontefract Stations you wish to travel to, but I don't buy this and previous correspondence from ATOC has said so too.

So if I wanted to travel Church Fenton to Manchester, would you allow me to travel on your TPE train from Leeds to Piccadilly, or do you believe I should restrict myself to the few trains a day that go direct from Church fenton to Victoria?

What about if we lived in Reading? Would you allow me to make a choice between Paddington or Waterloo?

It's a good point tho: going from Leeds to London, I believe that my choices are St Panc, Kings Cross, Moorgate and Liverpool St, though I can easily see shortest routes from Leeds to Euston, paddington and waterloo that don't go via The underground, so what's the difference?

If I can 'choose' my Pontefract station surely I must be able to choose my London one too?

(devils advocate)

 

[Marton]

If I can 'choose' my Pontefract station surely I must be able to choose my London one too?

(devils advocate)

Why can't you on an any permitted?

I have done Darlington - StP via Leicester and Darlington - KX via Cambridge and thought about Liv st via Cambridge,but it's out of my way in London.

 

[34D]

Why can't you on an any permitted?

I have done Darlington - StP via Leicester and Darlington - KX via Cambridge and thought about Liv st via Cambridge,but it's out of my way in London.

Cannon Street or Waterloo

 

[wbbminerals]

Seeing as National Rail Enquiries is now the bible for all routeing, would it be possible to use a Micklefield - Pontefract ticket going via Church Fenton provided you have a print out of the journey planner and/or show the journey on the NRE app?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

So if I wanted to travel Church Fenton to Manchester, would you allow me to travel on your TPE train from Leeds to Piccadilly, or do you believe I should restrict myself to the few trains a day that go direct from Church fenton to Victoria?

What about if we lived in Reading? Would you allow me to make a choice between Paddington or Waterloo?

It's a good point tho: going from Leeds to London, I believe that my choices are St Panc, Kings Cross, Moorgate and Liverpool St, though I can easily see shortest routes from Leeds to Euston, paddington and waterloo that don't go via The underground, so what's the difference?

If I can 'choose' my Pontefract station surely I must be able to choose my London one too?

(devils advocate)

The Church Fenton to Manchester argument is entirely different.

You can choose which station you wish to travel to as both Victoria and Piccadilly are on permitted routes.

You are free to choose whichever station you like in Pontefract (and anywhere else for that matter including London) as long as it is on a permitted route, in the OP's case from Leeds to Pontefract Stations. Pontefract Baghill does not feature on a permitted route from Leeds to Pontefract Stations (on paper) and therefore isn't an appropriate station to use, and thus a Leeds to Pontefract ticket *should not* be valid that way. In this case you can choose Tanshelf or Monkhill as they are both on permitted routes.

In Reading you can choose Waterloo or Paddington depending on the ticket restrictions and permitted mapped routes. Ditto Leeds to London - you can choose to go to any terminal that is on a mapped permitted route - so no you can't go to Waterloo.

 

[John @ home]

would it be possible to use a Micklefield - Pontefract ticket going via Church Fenton provided you have a print out of the journey planner and/or show the journey on the NRE app?

I don't think there is any doubt about the validity of a Micklefield - Pontefract Stations ticket via Church Fenton. The shortest route by rail from Micklefield to the nearest of the stations in Pontefract Stations Group (for ticketing purposes) is to Pontefract Baghill via Church Fenton.

According to the Network Rail timetable, these are the shortest routes:

Shortest route from Micklefield to Pontefract Baghill (15.5 miles)
Micklefield 0, Church Fenton 5, Sherburn-In-Elmet 7.25, Pontefract Baghill 15.5
Shortest route from Micklefield to Pontefract Monkhill (23.75 miles)
Shortest route from Micklefield to Pontefract Tanshelf (24.5 miles)

http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx

I think we are all agreed that a Micklefield - Pontefract Stations ticket is permitted to Pontefract Baghill via Church Fenton by the shortest route rule. kwvr45 commented on whether a Leeds - Pontefract Stations ticket is permitted from Leeds to Pontefract Baghill via Church Fenton.

My initial thought was that the Leeds - Pontefract ticket wasn't valid. This however falls into one of the traps created by the new routeing guide rules, and works in your favour!

The new routeing guide shows that the only permitted routes from Leeds to Pontefract are by map WY, which does not include going via Church Fenton.

In this instance, Leeds to Pontefract Baghill via Church Fenton is not the shortest route by rail from Leeds to the nearest of the stations in Pontefract Stations Group. But it is the shortest route by rail from Leeds to Pontefract Baghill.

According to the Network Rail timetable, these are the shortest routes:

Shortest route from Leeds to Pontefract Baghill (25.25 miles)
Leeds 0, Cross Gates 4.5, Garforth 7.5, East Garforth 8, Micklefield 9.75, Church Fenton 14.75, Sherburn-In-Elmet 17, Pontefract Baghill 25.25
Alternative route within 3 miles of the shortest (27.25 miles)
Leeds 0, Outwood 7.5, Wakefield Westgate 10, Sandal & Agbrigg 11.75, Fitzwilliam 16.5, Moorthorpe 20.25, Pontefract Baghill 27.25
Shortest route from Leeds to Pontefract Monkhill (14 miles)
Shortest route from Leeds to Pontefract Tanshelf (14.75 miles)

http://www.bukitlawang.com/routes/routes.aspx

In this instance, kwvr45 takes the view that the Routeing Guide (without this week's additional paragraph) did not allow Leeds to Pontefract Baghill via Church Fenton as a Permitted Route. I disagree. Leeds - Pontefract Stations is a mapped route. Permitted Routes are shown on map WY. Map WY shows a direct line from Leeds Group and Pontefract Group which does not enter any other Routeing Point. I continue to take the view that a direct line between adjacent Routeing Points allows the passenger to travel between those two Routeing Points by any route which does not double back and does not enter any other Routing Point.

Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey).

Leeds to Pontefract Baghill via Church Fenton is such a route.