Letter from TFW about Misuse of 26-30 railcard*settled*

[Somewhere]

That could be seen as simply 'getting away with it'. The traveller still has the responsibility to have a valid ticket.

The barriers at the end of the journey may not be programmed to apply logic that relies on the type of railcard discount, time the journey started, and amount of the fare.

But I think it reasonable for the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' to believe that the barcode scanners are programmed to know what they're doing, as they do everywhere else they're used.
The fact they don't know what legal basis they're using to access the OP's travelling data, the fact they should only be charging the difference between the fare paid and the fare that should have been paid, as well as barcode scanners not knowing what they're doing, is sufficient evidence of an incompetent organisation

 

[AdamWW]

Point out NRCoT 9.5.1. So you were inspected 50-odd times using a time-restricted ticket, and not once did they ask you to pay the difference in fare? They might wish 9.5.1 wasn't written in the way it is but as we've discussed on this forum before, it's difficult to argue that it's not applicable.

I would find it difficult to argue that, but they are presumably taking the view that as it's the railcard that's time restricted, and the NRCoT defines tickets without a valid railcard as invalid tickets, 9.5.1 doesn't apply.

 

[Somewhere]

I would find it difficult to argue that, but they are presumably taking the view that as it's the railcard that's time restricted, and the NRCoT defines tickets without a valid railcard as invalid tickets, 9.5.1 doesn't apply.

The two go hand-in-hand. A Railcard-discounted ticket isn't valid without a Railcard, and a Railcard isn't valid without a ticket. A Railcard forms part of the supporting documentation for the ticket

https://www.26-30railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/

I cannot find anything in the Railcard T&Cs that says what happens should you use a ticket discounted below the minimum fare before 10am

 

[Beans&sauce]

I received the same email today. All this time I thought the pricing on the app was an error. No member of staff ever told me my ticket was invalid and the gates at the station always worked. The Terms and Conditions of my ticket on the Trainline app even state that the ticket can be used any time of day without restriction and that railcard discounts are available. It’s crazy to me that they can do that.

 

[LJA]

Wouldn’t say there’s any indication from trainline that you can’t use it before 10am. Yes the other times listed are after 10am, but this is how it shows for earlier trains too, it only shows later journeys as options.

It also says “travel any time of day” and if you click on ticket restrictions can’t see anything there.

Not sure if you get anymore info when you actually buy but can see how it would happen if you’re not aware of the £12 limit.

 

[Somewhere]

I received the same email today. All this time I thought the pricing on the app was an error. No member of staff ever told me my ticket was invalid and the gates at the station always worked. The Terms and Conditions of my ticket on the Trainline app even state that the ticket can be used any time of day without restriction and that railcard discounts are available. It’s crazy to me that they can do that.

If that's what the app told you, screenshot it and reply to them saying that in your response

 

[Beans&sauce]

Wouldn’t say there’s any indication from trainline that you can’t use it before 10am. Yes the other times listed are after 10am, but this is how it shows for earlier trains too, it only shows later journeys as options.

It also says “travel any time of day” and if you click on ticket restrictions can’t see anything there.

Not sure if you get anymore info when you actually buy but can see how it would happen if you’re not aware of the £12 limit.

Yup this is exactly what I sent them after getting the same email as OP. You think they would put something as important as a criminal offence in the ticket terms and conditions.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note:
To keep this thread on-topic I've split discussion about Subject Access Requests into a new thread:

Discussion on Subject Access Requests in Ticketing Disputes

Moderator Note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/misuse-of-26-30-railcard.258153/ Hi all, I have read a few similar issues on this and was wondering if anyone had their outcome. Back story - I work in cardiff as a store manager and I commute from hengoed station. I work shift...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Hadders]

I think it's probably worth replying to TfW apologising about what has happened but pointing out that:

- Trainline app suggests the ticket can be used at any time of day (as per post #35) - assuming that is what you see when you purchase a ticket
- That the fact that your tickets had been scanned and accepted multiple times during onboard ticket inspections and when passing through ticket barriers suggested that the ticket was valid
- That having done some research following receipt of their letter you now realise that the ticket was not valid

In view of the above I would offer to regularise the situation by offering to pay the difference between the discounted fare and the undiscounted fare.

 

[reb0118]

AFAIAA if the ticket is scanned on board it will show as valid (due to it being an anytime) but there will be a warning to mention that there is a railcard discount.

Unfortunately some staff don't check for railcards let alone understand the minimum fare requirements so there is a chance that these types of "error" can progress for some time before one encounters a conductor on the ball or a revenue inspector.

One thing to explain is why a certain train time was selected but another train was used? Can a pattern be detected?

 

[Haywain]

The last 2 weeks have been weekly tickets (no discount applied) then previous to that it was monthly (no discount applied) however it has never ever been told to me that I wasn’t allowed to do so. It’s never been highlighted or I would 1. Pay the full price then and there and get a new ticket and 2. Stop all together as I would be aware

Can you be clearer, please? If all of your tickets have been without discounts, what are the tickets you are being asked about?

And while your at it, have your tickets been checked on trains, or just at ticket gates?

 

[Sheffcaster202]

The last 2 weeks have been weekly tickets (no discount applied) then previous to that it was monthly (no discount applied) however it has never ever been told to me that I wasn’t allowed to do so. It’s never been highlighted or I would 1. Pay the full price then and there and get a new ticket and 2. Stop all together as I would be aware

I notice you have screenshot the type of ticket you have bought but not the journey time you selected…

Did it not occur to you that the journeys before 10am were priced differently for a reason?
Below is an example of this, the journeys before 10am come out at £5.20 and when clicked on show no railcard discount.

Although it says you can travel at any time of day on the later, discounted tickets you must have selected a later one in order to get the best value and used this ticket before 10am.

Many an argument can be had over the right and wrongs of the way it’s presented but, from the TOCs point of view you have input your planned journey, chosen a later train and ticket as it’s cheaper and travelled earlier. Had you picked the time you actually planned to travel you wouldn’t have been able to apply your discount.

Unfortunately it’s down to you to ensure you abide by the T&Cs of your railcard.

Yes it should be picked up by scanners/conductors and alike, yes the buying apps should make it far clearer, will you come out of this ok? I can’t answer that and the more experienced guys have offered sound advice already and I hope it goes the best way possible for you.

Perhaps a season ticket is the best way forward for you as your railcard doesn’t seem to be a great deal of help to you at the times you travel?

 

[30907]

I notice you have screenshot the type of ticket you have bought but not the journey time you selected…

Did it not occur to you that the journeys before 10am were priced differently for a reason?
Below is an example of this, the journeys before 10am come out at £5.20 and when clicked on show no railcard discount.

Although it says you can travel at any time of day on the later, discounted tickets you must have selected a later one in order to get the best value and used this ticket before 10am.

This is the OP's description in post #1

Back story - I work in cardiff as a store manager and I commute from hengoed station. I work shift patterns and when I have bought a ticket for my late shift using my rail card it states travel any time of day. I have went into work earlier and this is a common thing.

It's not clear to me whether the OP has been buying tickets for the later time intending to use them earlier, or has been regularly doing (voluntary unpaid?) overtime meaning that their travel plans frequently changed after purchase. The latter seems unlikely, but retail managers seem IME to have sold their soul to their employer....

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it's probably worth replying to TfW apologising about what has happened but pointing out that:

- Trainline app suggests the ticket can be used at any time of day (as per post #35) - assuming that is what you see when you purchase a ticket
- That the fact that your tickets had been scanned and accepted multiple times during onboard ticket inspections and when passing through ticket barriers suggested that the ticket was valid
- That having done some research following receipt of their letter you now realise that the ticket was not valid

In view of the above I would offer to regularise the situation by offering to pay the difference between the discounted fare and the undiscounted fare.

Finally some sanity and practical advice in this thread.

 

[sheff1]

Finally some sanity and practical advice in this thread.

If my thoughts in post #17 are insane/impractical I would grateful if you could explain why as I put forward in good faith what I felt to be a reasonable idea and would hate it if I had somehow unwittingly misled the OP.

 

[AlterEgo]

If my thoughts in post #17 are insane/impractical I would grateful if you could explain why as I put forward in good faith what I felt to be a reasonable idea and would hate it if I had somehow unwittingly misled the OP.

That sort of advice and representation will cost more than the amount by TfW so it represents a false economy. They settle pretty much every time anyway.

 

[sheff1]

That sort of advice and representation will cost more than the amount by TfW so it represents a false economy. They settle pretty much every time anyway.

I don't see how advice obtained in a free consulation can cost anything (certainly when I sought free legal advice on a non rail matter it was just that - free). No doubt (as with me) the legal advisor will quote a price for any additional service and/or representation which can then be assessed against the estimated settlement amount put forward by other posters.

However, if seeking one of these advertised free consultaions is actually a waste of time in rail related cases (I don't know how much worthwhile advice is usuallly given there) I will not mention it in any future threads.

 

[scrapy]

I think it's probably worth replying to TfW apologising about what has happened but pointing out that:

- Trainline app suggests the ticket can be used at any time of day (as per post #35) - assuming that is what you see when you purchase a ticket
- That the fact that your tickets had been scanned and accepted multiple times during onboard ticket inspections and when passing through ticket barriers suggested that the ticket was valid
- That having done some research following receipt of their letter you now realise that the ticket was not valid

In view of the above I would offer to regularise the situation by offering to pay the difference between the discounted fare and the undiscounted fare.

Agree with this advice. It should be noted that whilst the tickets were accepted 55 times, should they choose to prosecute using railway bylaws it is a strict liability offence and whilst acceptance of the ticket may be a mitigating factor in deciding what penalty will be handed out, the court would still be bound to find you guilty.

The magistrate/judge will probably have some words for TFW about improving customer awareness but there will likely be noone actually present from TFW to actually hear this and they are not bound by this.

I also think a clever prosecution team would be able to convince a court that you intentionally tried to get a discount you weren't entitled to and successfully prosecute you under the more serious regulation of the railway act. If they show the court the booking process on the app/website you used, and that you would have to select a ticket after 10am to get the discount, It may be believable that you made the odd mistake of booking the wrong time, or that your plans have changed but the court may not believe that this has happened 55 times, especially if travel is much earlier than 10am. You will of course be able to show the court that the app shows the ticket can be used anytime of day but it's not guaranteed they would believe you weren't still trying to book a ticket later, to get a cheaper fare than entitled. TFW will also be able to show you've accepted the Railcard terms.

I'm not sure that this exercise is much more than one to get the OP to admit their guilt, so they definitely shouldn't do this however if in the OPs shoes I certainly wouldn't allow this to go to court if I could avoid it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Agree with this advice. It should be noted that whilst the tickets were accepted 55 times, should they choose to prosecute using railway bylaws it is a strict liability offence and whilst acceptance of the ticket may be a mitigating factor in deciding what penalty will be handed out, the court would still be bound to find you guilty.

The magistrate/judge will probably have some words for TFW about improving customer awareness but there will likely be noone actually present from TFW to actually hear this and they are not bound by this.

I also think a clever prosecution team would be able to convince a court that you intentionally tried to get a discount you weren't entitled to and successfully prosecute you under the more serious regulation of the railway act. If they show the court the booking process on the app/website you used, and that you would have to select a ticket after 10am to get the discount, It may be believable that you made the odd mistake of booking the wrong time, or that your plans have changed but the court may not believe that this has happened 55 times, especially if travel is much earlier than 10am.

I'm not sure that this exercise is much more than one to get the OP to admit their guilt, so they definitely shouldn't do this however if in the OPs shoes I certainly wouldn't allow this to go to court if I could avoid it.

I suspect that were the OP to engage a solicitor then it wouldn't end up anywhere near court. There's no way TfW solicitors would want to risk it.

 

[AdamWW]

I also think a clever prosecution team would be able to convince a court that you intentionally tried to get a discount you weren't entitled to and successfully prosecute you under the more serious regulation of the railway act. If they show the court the booking process on the app/website you used, and that you would have to select a ticket after 10am to get the discount, It may be believable that you made the odd mistake of booking the wrong time, or that your plans have changed but the court may not believe that this has happened 55 times, especially if travel is much earlier than 10am.

And the clever defense might point out that we live in a world of buggy software that companies can't or won't fix and we often have to work around such things and therefore the reasonable person would conclude that if sold a ticket clearly described as having no restrictions for a 10:30 service, the higher prices showing for the same ticket earlier in the day are an error.

 

[Haywain]

And the clever defense might point out that we live in a world of buggy software that companies can't or won't fix and we often have to work around such things and therefore the reasonable person would conclude that if sold a ticket clearly described as having no restrictions for a 10:30 service, the higher prices showing for the same ticket earlier in the day are an error.

The prosecution might then point out that the restrictions that apply to the use of the railcard are made fairly clear at the time of its purchase.

 

[scrapy]

I suspect that were the OP to engage a solicitor then it wouldn't end up anywhere near court. There's no way TfW solicitors would want to risk it.

Maybe not a RORA prosecution but a bylaws prosecution would be sure to succeed. I'm sure if the OP engages with TFW (but isn't cocky, but neither do they have to admit to having deliberately done anything wrong) it won't end up in court, a solicitor would just be extra expense.

And the clever defense might point out that we live in a world of buggy software that companies can't or won't fix and we often have to work around such things and therefore the reasonable person would conclude that if sold a ticket clearly described as having no restrictions for a 10:30 service, the higher prices showing for the same ticket earlier in the day are an error.

I think they may be clutching at straws there especially 55 times, and strict liability would still apply in a bylaws prosecution.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Maybe not a RORA prosecution but a bylaws prosecution would be sure to succeed. I'm sure if the OP engages with TFW (but isn't cocky, but neither do they have to admit to having deliberately done anything wrong) it won't end up in court, a solicitor would just be extra expense.


I think they may be clutching at straws there especially 55 times, and strict liability would still apply in a bylaws prosecution.

I think, in effect, being given permission to travel 55 times would make the prosecution case weak, even for a bylaw. No solicitor from TfW would let it go near court. I suspect a good solicitor now would get it all dropped without even an out of court settlement given that TfW wouldn't dare risk a court case for it. But whether that expense is worth it is another matter

 

[fandroid]

I think we should remember that we've been asked for help, and offer real advice to the OP as to how to reply. I suspect that there's not much mileage in looking back to check if every claimed instance is correct. 55 times in around 10 months of commuting is not a lot, so implies that the investigation was carried out carefully.

For what it's worth, my suggestion is that the OP replies very politely, apologises without reservation for having paid insufficient fares, and says that they never intended to avoid paying the correct fares. Use the screenshot from Trainline as evidence of potential misunderstanding. Explain that their shift pattern varied, as exemplified by the ticket inspection pattern and that, as a commuter, they got into an habitual pattern of always buying the same ticket, which correctly applied to their usual work hours.

They could legitimately add that if the error had been pointed out to them a lot earlier, on one of the numerous ticket checks, then both TfW and themselves could have been saved a lot of bother. Perhaps offer to pay the fare difference plus TfW's admin costs.

 

[scrapy]

I think, in effect, being given permission to travel 55 times would make the prosecution case weak, even for a bylaw. No solicitor from TfW would let it go near court. I suspect a good solicitor now would get it all dropped without even an out of court settlement given that TfW wouldn't dare risk a court case for it. But whether that expense is worth it is another matter

I disagree, a strict liability offence is just that and doesn't weaken whether it's 1 or 55 times. A ticket opening a ticket barrier is not permission to travel. Obviously it's up to the OP if they want to take that chance.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I disagree, a strict liability offence is just that and doesn't weaken whether it's 1 or 55 times. A ticket opening a ticket barrier is not permission to travel. Obviously it's up to the OP if they want to take that chance.

But they were scanned onboard a train at a point they are claiming it wasn't valid. I don't think any solicitor would fancy their chances. Much easier to settle out of court...or not at all if another solicitor argues the case with you

 

[Haywain]

But they were scanned onboard a train

That is a suggestion that has been made but that the OP has not confirmed. It is also possible that they were scanned at ticket barriers. The OP has been asked for clarification but has not given a response.

 

[Poller2712.]

Yeah true

But the train company also has a responsibility to ensure the traveller knows of the relevant restriction.

If you want to pursue that line of discussion then we need to ask the OP:
How did you purchase your tickets?

E.g. Perhaps there was a warning in the purchase process that the train company can prove that they deliberately bypassed? Deliberately specified a later time in order to obtain the ticket? For example, perhaps the email on purchasing included the text "Please note that your ticket is not valid until 10am - see your railcard T&Cs"

That is a suggestion that has been made but that the OP has not confirmed. It is also possible that they were scanned at ticket barriers. The OP has been asked for clarification but has not given a response.

Hello, yes these have been scanned in person everytime by a conductor on the train

 

[Haywain]

Hello, yes these have been scanned in person everytime by a conductor on the train

Thanks. Could you also answer the question about the tickets you have been using? You stated they have been tickets with "no discount applied", which is puzzling as the problem appears to be that you've been using discounted tickets.

 

[Poller2712.]

Thanks. Could you also answer the question about the tickets you have been using? You stated they have been tickets with "no discount applied", which is puzzling as the problem appears to be that you've been using discounted tickets.

Someone asked if he had happened recently so I stated that the last 2 months have been season tickets rather than daily’s. This email I received is from the last year up to September 23