Life after the end of "lockdown" 2.0

[peters]

The fact that Liverpool and North Yorkshire are both in the medium tier suggests it's not a north vs south thing.

Greater Manchester in tier 3 isn't too surprising. Cases are falling rapidly and the average rate isn't much higher than the national average, but it's overloaded with bars and restaurants in a crowded city centre and they probably think it will get out of control again in the run up to and over Christmas if these reopen next week. The region was consistently amongst the highest in rates across the country between late July and the second lockdown, not many other areas were so high and for so long.

The only medium tier areas are:
Isle of Wight, Cornwall, Isles of Scilly.

The divide is how the boundaries are drawn. Berkshire, Sussex, Gloucestershire and Somerset are among the areas where the tier level have been decided on the level of infection in a local council area, in the case of Berkshire that means only Slough is tier 3, rather than the whole ceremonial county. On the other hand huge diverse areas like Greater Manchester, Lancashire and the North East have one blanket restriction for every council area within that area. For clarity the London boroughs have all been grouped together and boroughs have been grouped together across the Midlands, as well as in the North.

 

[trainophile]

I'm a pensioner so not too bothered financially, but our whole way of life has been on hold for far too long and we are definitely against all the extended restrictions. I have a new great nephew who is four months old and I haven't been able to see him yet, and haven't seen my sister since a ten minute railway platform meet in June.

I heard this morning on the radio someone on a phone-in referring to a 15-mile travel corridor - that's a new one on me, does anyone know if it's a thing?

 

[duncanp]

I'm a pensioner so not too bothered financially, but our whole way of life has been on hold for far too long and we are definitely against all the extended restrictions. I have a new great nephew who is four months old and I haven't been able to see him yet, and haven't seen my sister since a ten minute railway platform meet in June.

I heard this morning on the radio someone on a phone-in referring to a 15-mile travel corridor - that's a new one on me, does anyone know if it's a thing?

I am also retired and have not been affected financially. If anything, I saved some money when the shops, pubs and restaurants were shut.

However that does not mean that I am in favour of the restrictions - I am very much of the opinion that we need to have a plan to get back to normal as soon as possible, given the damage that the current restrictions are doing to the economy and people's mental health.

With regard to the current tier system, we need to have some objective criteria that can be used to decide which tier each area should go into. This should be based principally on the infection rate, but taking into account other factors such as the rate amongst older people, whether cases are rising and falling, and the current and future effect on the NHS. Tiers should be reviewed weekly and recommendations made to the government. If an area is moved down a tier, the effect on cases should be monitored, to see what effect the easing of restrictions has had. The overall aim should be to move all areas on England down the tiers gradually over time, so that by the end of March the position is reversed compared to today, with most of the country in Tier 1, some areas in Tier 2, and only a few areas in Tier 3 if there are particular circumstances which justify this.

Professor Twitty is on record as saying that if an area is in Tier 1, then cases will rise. Well then Professor, let's see what happens in Cornwall and the Isle of Wight. If there is no significant rise in cases in the next few weeks, will you have the decency to issue a retraction, admit you were wrong, and then resign so that someone who knows what they are doing can take charge.

With Kent being put into Tier 3, I am reminded of The Peasant's Revolt of 1381, which also had its' roots in East Anglia. I think it is high time that a non violent version of this revolt happened today, because I for one have lost all confidence is this government and its' ability to make decisions that are in the best interests of the majority of the people.

 

[DB]

The only medium tier areas are:
Isle of Wight, Cornwall, Isles of Scilly.

How can the lowest of three tiers be 'medium', given that this implies a position in the middle between two extremes?

Is it because Project Fear dictates that 'low' would not be an acceptable description because it doesn't convey a sense of threat?

 

[6862]

Is it because Project Fear dictates that 'low' would not be an acceptable description because it doesn't convey a sense of threat?

I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

 

[317 forever]

It wasn't illegal to travel for any reason when in tier 3.

I believe that is not the case before December 2nd and you could technically be given a fixed penalty notice. But I wouldn't let that stop me, it's essential for my mental health that I go out and do things which might not necessarily be permitted.

I have a trip planned for tomorrow and am optimistic I should be fine. My individual activities will comprise the following:

* Walks linking my house, a rail station, a bus stop, a cafe or a newsagents
* Purchase of coffee or light refreshments for takeaway
* Rides on buses and trains

None of these are against the law, although public transport use is advised against but still not ruled against.

Is a catch-all which can easily be applied to any situation - they cannot prove that this isn't a person's intention.

It's quite clear that most people are ignoring it all - despite half the shops being closed, the local town centre is nearly as busy as normal, and there is no attempt at any enforcement - unsurprisingly, as many aspects of this law are unenforceable.

I have even noticed more people out and about during this lockdown than immediately before the previous lockdown. Perhaps people are less concerned due to the lower R rate or are just fed up with staying at home.

 

[peters]

How can the lowest of three tiers be 'medium', given that this implies a position in the middle between two extremes?

Is it because Project Fear dictates that 'low' would not be an acceptable description because it doesn't convey a sense of threat?

Or it could imply nowhere is low. When the FCO started introducing travel corridors they decided only countries with an average infection rate of less than 20 in 100,000 could be included. How many council areas in the UK currently have an average rate of less than 20?

Many shops only sell medium and thick sliced bread, does that mean there's no such thing as thin sliced bread or does it mean medium is actually thin and thick is actually medium?

 

[Mag_seven]

Performing arts are also being hit badly - no gigs or concerts, plays etc. Even when they do start, income will be hard hit by the need for a socially-distanced audience.

The hospitality, performing arts and travel industries have all been thrown under a bus. These industries employ a lot of youngsters just starting out in their careers. Now if they ever get jobs elsewhere they will be saddled with high taxes for years to come.

 

[yorksrob]

Or it could imply nowhere is low. When the FCO started introducing travel corridors they decided only countries with an average infection rate of less than 20 in 100,000 could be included. How many council areas in the UK currently have an average rate of less than 20?

Many shops only sell medium and thick sliced bread, does that mean there's no such thing as thin sliced bread or does it mean medium is actually thin and thick is actually medium?

It wouldn't surprise me if the Scilly Isles had such a rate - although they appear to be counted with the rest of Cornwall for the stats at 57.

Anyway, just because no areas may currently have a rate of less than 20 per 100k, that's not to say that some won'tget down to that.

 

[DB]

Or it could imply nowhere is low. When the FCO started introducing travel corridors they decided only countries with an average infection rate of less than 20 in 100,000 could be included. How many council areas in the UK currently have an average rate of less than 20?

Many shops only sell medium and thick sliced bread, does that mean there's no such thing as thin sliced bread or does it mean medium is actually thin and thick is actually medium?

If that was the case, Low would still be Tier 1, and Medium would be Tier 2. The fact that Medium is Tier 1 clearly indicates that this is actually the lowest tier they are allowing, making it nonsensical to call it 'Medium'.

As regards bread, that's not tied to a system of numbers so perfectly possible that there is a 'thin' category which they don't happen to stock.

 

[packermac]

How can the lowest of three tiers be 'medium', given that this implies a position in the middle between two extremes?

Is it because Project Fear dictates that 'low' would not be an acceptable description because it doesn't convey a sense of threat?

I would only expect to get to "low" when a fair percentage of the vaccine rollout has been achieved. The lowest risk currently is medium because there is still a medium threat to that areas local health capability and/or percentage of population over 60.

 

[greyman42]

I have a trip planned for tomorrow and am optimistic I should be fine. My individual activities will comprise the following:

* Walks linking my house, a rail station, a bus stop, a cafe or a newsagents
* Purchase of coffee or light refreshments for takeaway
* Rides on buses and trains

None of these are against the law, although public transport use is advised against but still not ruled against.

Sounds good. Have a good day.

 

[317 forever]

Sounds good. Have a good day.

Thank you. I am also going tomorrow rather than in December as there will be fewer people out before Christmas shopping and colder weather. In other words, the lockdown may make December better but ironically the virus makes tomorrow better.

 

[peters]

ill be Tier 1, and Medium would be Tier 2. The fact that Medium is Tier 1 clearly indicates that this is actually the lowest tier they are allowing, making it nonsensical to call it 'Medium'.

As regards bread, that's not tied to

Nothing to stop them introducing a tier 0 if things improve or doing like most EU countries and using a yellow, orange and red traffic light system for areas with restrictions, with green areas being restriction free.

 

[DB]

I would only expect to get to "low" when a fair percentage of the vaccine rollout has been achieved. The lowest risk currently is medium because there is still a medium threat to that areas local health capability and/or percentage of population over 60.

But that still doesn't explain why Medium is Tier 1, does it? Logically it should be Tier 2, in order to allow for a lower tier even if that's not in use at the moment. If they want to introduce a lower tier now they are going to have to either change medium to tier 2, or introduce a tier 0 - both of which are potentially confusing and could easily have been avoided.

Nothing to stop them introducing a tier 0 if things improve or doing like most EU countries and using a yellow, orange and red traffic light system for areas with restrictions, with green areas being restriction free.

They won't do the same as the EU because they have to be different as a matter of (often misguided) principal! Using 0 for anything is only ever done when a system unexpectedly needs a new category at the bottom. In this case it is surely to be expected, so should have been designed in at the start.

 

[peters]

Using 0 for anything is only ever done when a system unexpectedly needs a new category at the bottom. In this case it is surely to be expected, so should have been designed in at the start.

Depends if low means no restrictions then level 0 or no level makes sense but if it means a few restrictions then maybe not.

 

[DB]

Depends if low means no restrictions then level 0 or no level makes sense but if it means a few restrictions then maybe not.

Low is not none, so medium still makes no sense for tier 1.

And the chances of them going from the current lowest restrictions to nothing is very unlikely!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Cue people looking to move to Cornwall even though their only experience of the county is a family holiday 30 years ago

Hope Plymouth residents treat things sensibly and don't flood East Cornwall's pubs and restaurants.

 

[yorksrob]

Cue people looking to move to Cornwall even though their only experience of the county is a family holiday 30 years ago

Hope Plymouth residents treat things sensibly and don't flood East Cornwall's pubs and restaurants.

The best way to avoid hospitality being flooded in various places is to have covid secure hospitality everywhere. This is of course lost on the clueless imbeciles who come up with this drivel.

 

[Class 33]

Just before we went into this second lockdown, Johnson said in his press conference "If we can get the R rate below 1, we can start relaxing restrictions.". Well the R rate is now just below 1. So let's see if he starts relaxing all these restrictions shall we. I bet he doesn't! As things stand now, the effect all these ongoing lockdowns/restrictions is causing more and more damage to the economy and people of this country.

 

[duncanp]

The best way to avoid hospitality being flooded in various places is to have covid secure hospitality everywhere. This is of course lost on the clueless imbeciles who come up with this drivel.

Exactly, couldn't agree more.

And the fun police are making it quite clear that, in Tier 2 (England) there will be no hanging round after finishing your meal for a sneaky extra pint or two.

Dinners must leave pubs after meal is finished under new rules​

Tier 2 rules means diners and drinkers must leave pubs and restaurants once their food is finished, the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson has announced.
Punters will not be allowed to hang around for an extra pint after the meal has finished, the spokesperson said.
The Downing Street spokesperson said: “We’ve been clear that, in Tier 2 I believe, that you need to have a substantial meal if ordering any alcohol and it remains the case that the guidance says that once the meal is finished, it is at that point.”
The news follows yesterdays announcement that business lunches will be allowed, and there will be no restrictions on table size for groups from one household or support bubble.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...-oxford-vaccine-testing/#update-20201127-1413
I suspect lots of people will try and get round this by ordering an extra pint whilst there is still one chip left on their plate, because then they haven't "finished their meal".

 

[bramling]

Exactly, couldn't agree more.

And the fun police are making it quite clear that, in Tier 2 (England) there will be no hanging round after finishing your meal for a sneaky extra pint or two.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...-oxford-vaccine-testing/#update-20201127-1413
I suspect lots of people will try and get round this by ordering an extra pint whilst there is still one chip left on their plate, because then they haven't "finished their meal".

This all gets more and more crazy by the day.

 

[Bantamzen]

Exactly, couldn't agree more.

And the fun police are making it quite clear that, in Tier 2 (England) there will be no hanging round after finishing your meal for a sneaky extra pint or two.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...-oxford-vaccine-testing/#update-20201127-1413
I suspect lots of people will try and get round this by ordering an extra pint whilst there is still one chip left on their plate, because then they haven't "finished their meal".

Albeit a moot point being in an Internment Camp 3, if we are ever released the spokesperson can go shove their rules where the sun will never shine.

 

[Richard Scott]

This all gets more and more crazy by the day.

Couldn't agree more. It would be funny if it weren't real life. I'm sure even a comedy writer couldn't have come up with such nonsense for a plot.

 

[Mag_seven]

Exactly, couldn't agree more.

And the fun police are making it quite clear that, in Tier 2 (England) there will be no hanging round after finishing your meal for a sneaky extra pint or two.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...-oxford-vaccine-testing/#update-20201127-1413
I suspect lots of people will try and get round this by ordering an extra pint whilst there is still one chip left on their plate, because then they haven't "finished their meal".

Yes apparently the virus knows when you have a plate of food in front of you and only strikes when the plate is removed.

 

[peters]

Just before we went into this second lockdown, Johnson said in his press conference "If we can get the R rate below 1, we can start relaxing restrictions.". Well the R rate is now just below 1. So let's see if he starts relaxing all these restrictions shall we. I bet he doesn't! As things stand now, the effect all these ongoing lockdowns/restrictions is causing more and more damage to the economy and people of this country.

A subsequent report claimed we need tighter restrictions before and after Christmas if we want restrictions to be dropped for a few days.

 

[yorksrob]

A subsequent report claimed we need tighter restrictions before and after Christmas if we want restrictions to be dropped for a few days.

Yet lockdown was supposed to have ended before xmas anyway !

 

[Richard Scott]

A subsequent report claimed we need tighter restrictions before and after Christmas if we want restrictions to be dropped for a few days.

Which report and what scientific evidence does it give for these statements? After 8 months of all of this I'm somewhat sceptical of scientific reports.

 

[kez19]

Which report and what scientific evidence does it give for these statements? After 8 months of all of this I'm somewhat sceptical of scientific reports.

I found this (again) I know its The Daily Mail.....

Normal Christmas would trigger spike in Covid-19 cases, says scientist

Figures show there were 22,915 Covid cases recorded in the last 24 hours, a fall of 31.5 per cent from last week. The number of deaths due to Covid-19 also dropped by 11 per cent.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Professor Gabriel Scally, a public health expert at Bristol University, today slammed the proposals, warning there was 'no point' in having a merry Christmas only to 'then bury friends and relations in January and February'. The festive period is 'too dangerous a time and opportunity for the virus to spread', he added.

Professor Andrew Hayward, a member of Downing Street's advisory group SAGE and an infectious diseases expert at University College London, also warned against the proposed plans, claiming they posed a 'substantial' risk of spreading the coronavirus to the elderly, who are the most vulnerable to Covid-19.

One expert even warned Britons would 'regret' a five-day break that has 'given granny Covid for Christmas'. Dr Katherine Henderson, president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, said ministers should be worrying about 'crowded' NHS hospitals rather than talking about yuletide celebrations.

Health bosses have already warned the nation may have to sacrifice 25 days in lockdown either side of Christmas to enjoy five days of celebrations. But experts today hit back at the threat, dismissing the five days of punishment for every one day of no restrictions as being 'made up' and 'not based on any data'.

Professor Tim Spector, an epidemiologist at King's College London who has tracked the course of the UK's Covid outbreak since the spring, told MailOnline: 'It would be naive to think we can get this virus completely under control before then so we have to accept some level of risk.'

And Professor John Edmunds, who is also a member of SAGE and epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, last night said he thought any pause in measures might be achievable 'without' another 25-day lockdown, and that he was 'sure' there would be a relaxation of measures over Christmas.

Of all the rules I find though is, they come away with its safe to celebrate Christmas outside than inside, yet is it not colder outside than inside? What planet are they on?

Yet I posted in another thread regarding opening windows for 15 mins or so a day inside that "kills" bacteria.... its makes no logical sense, I wonder how many of our wonderful MPs (in all nations) will be having a jolly christmas whilst the public are hung out to dry?

 

[MikeWM]

Of all the rules I find though is, they come away with its safe to celebrate Christmas outside than inside, yet is it not colder outside than inside? What planet are they on?

Yet I posted in another thread regarding opening windows for 15 mins or so a day inside that "kills" bacteria.... its makes no logical sense, I wonder how many of our wonderful MPs (in all nations) will be having a jolly christmas whilst the public are hung out to dry?

I thought we'd established that the best conditions for the virus to survive were cold temperature and low humidity. Which, if you open your windows in the winter, is exactly the condition your house will end up in.

But there we go again - we're trying to apply logic to things that don't make any sense.