Lincoln to Nottingham - one of the worst lines in the country!

[ashworth]

The following was to be found on the BBC Lincolnshire website today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-24817527

The government has said local authorities should fund improvements to a train service claimed by campaigners to be "one of the worst in the UK". Journey times between Lincoln and Nottingham are now slower than they were 100 years ago, according to campaign group Rail Fair.
It has called on the government to fund upgrade work on the line.
East Midlands Trains, which currently runs the route, said additional funding was needed to improve journey times.
A spokeswoman for the company said: "We have worked hard to improve the service between Nottingham and Lincoln and have provided our passengers with refurbished trains and an additional evening service...

 

[High Dyke]

First mentioned about the journey times a few months ago. Then again it doesn't surprise me about some of the comments.

East Midlands Trains, which currently runs the route, said additional funding was needed to improve journey times.

A spokeswoman for the company said: "We have worked hard to improve the service between Nottingham and Lincoln and have provided our passengers with refurbished trains and an additional evening service.

The current service level has been like it for a number of years now; so i'm not sure where the EMT spokeswoman has been looking. Admittedly the trains have had a refurbishment and the majority of services are two-car units (in various formats), but apart from the lack of stock, as mentioned by the EMT spokeswoman, part of the problem is the lack of wanting change.

She added: "We are currently using all of the trains made available by the government for the East Midlands Trains franchise to deliver the maximum possible capacity across our network.

"The faster journey times and increase in capacity needed for the Nottingham to Lincoln route would need additional carriages and additional funding and this can only be made possible through a change to the existing franchise."

An hourly service between the two cities has been 'adequate' since EMT first took the route on; though under Central Trains there was a half hourly mixture of fast/semi-fast and stopping services.

Whether the County Council will be able to input any finance is yet to be seen... If they're like Lincoln City Council though it could be a 'token gesture'... To slightly off topic; a few months ago the City Council were looking to pull the plug on the Uphill Lincoln 'walk and ride' bus to save money. Now they've suddenly relaunched the service and are providing new vehicles. So like the trains the question has to be asked where exactly does the money come from for improvements when councils, be it city or county, are claiming to be so impoverished? Perhaps the TOC shareholders should fork out some spondulies!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is half the problem not increased EC frequencies over Newark flat crossing?

 

[tbtc]

I thought that the plan was for the Matlock - Nottingham service to be extended to Newark Castle (thus speeding up the Nottingham - Lincoln service)?

Or was that just a proposal?

Is half the problem not increased EC frequencies over Newark flat crossing?

AIUI, yes.

Frustrating that this article fails to mention the biggest reason why services can't simply be increased.

Journey times between Lincoln and Nottingham are now slower than they were 100 years ago, according to campaign group Rail Fair.

This is true of a number of lines - a regular service isn't as fast as an infrequent non-stop (or seldom stopping) service. Not sure why this kind of thing keeps making the headlines though.

Business organisations and councils want an extra two trains per hour between the stations

They want a service every twenty minutes from Nottingham to Lincoln? With no reference to the flat crossing at Newark and how they'd solve that? This lot are almost as daft as Harrogate Chamber of Commerce!

 

[YorkshireBear]

They want a service every twenty minutes from Nottingham to Lincoln? With no reference to the flat crossing at Newark and how they'd solve that? This lot are almost as daft as Harrogate Chamber of Commerce!

I am starting to see what they did. Scream wildly to get everyone to know where they are, then announce a sensible proposal that has a good thought out and well planned business case and all of a sudden everybody is listening.

Clever?

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps... they do say fortune favours the bold. Make a huge fuss and campaign for 3tph... they might get one more in a few years!

 

[maniacmartin]

Out of curiosity, how much would replacing the flat crossing with a bridge cost?

 

[High Dyke]

Out of curiosity, how much would replacing the flat crossing with a bridge cost?

Not sure i've ever sen a figure quoted. However also the current lie of the land is a major factor against it. As it currently is the A46 by-pass is in the way. Nor would any bridge gain sufficient height at a suitable inclination for freight to maintain a reasonable turn of speed to rise above the ECML with Newark Castle station in its current position i believe.

There was a suggestion a while back of a new route, probably taking the line of the lifted Beet Factory chord and then crossing the ECML further north than present to then rejoin the Lincoln line east of the A1; however this involves crossing the River Trent twice and a number of fishing lakes. With the course of the river, and its associated navigation parts at Nether Weir i guess a tunnel would be out of the question.

This morning the populus of Newark will also be pleased to find out that at least the first 4 trains (2 Up, 2 Down) are replaced by road transport. Emergency engineering work hasn't seen a train pass Newark Castle since 18:50 last night (Tuesday). Busy, busy night for me...

 

[edwin_m]

I think the sort-of-plan to get rid of the flat crossing would be to elevate the railway on its existing alignment to about the same height as the A46 so it passes over both the ECML and the Northgate-Lincoln connection, which would merge in from the north side where the line ramps down to ground level. There's about 700m from the crossing to the A46 overbridge to the west, and more than that to the A1 eastwards, which ought to give an acceptable gradient (and it probably doesn't matter if it slows the freight down a bit).

Ground conditions may be difficult but if they built the A46 embankment then a rail embankment ought to be possible. However it would probably affect the sewage works between the railway and the Trent.

 

[YorkshireBear]

My back of the hand calculations have it that you could do it with a maximum gradient of 1 in 100 gradient.... That is a rise of 6.5m in around 720m...Presuming a required 5.5m clearance but to be honest i think you may need to do it a little more than that maybe 7.5m which would make it about 1 in 90 still sure that is possible?

Costing, well i would probably double the cost of Hitchin flyover. I think because of the amount of work that will be required alongside the existing railway, maybe. Also ground conditions are more difficult and it may be a long viaduct rather than earthworks on either side (this would also allow the railway to stay open alongside.

So back of the envelope calculations for me see that it is completely possible within the constraints of gradient and that it would cost 100-150 million.

Usual disclaimer about me being wrong before :P

 

[northwichcat]

A few years back the local media here reported journeys between Northwich/Knutsford and Manchester are slower now than they were when steam trains operated, so it's not a problem exclusive to Nottingham to Lincoln.

One problem most local services have is a lot of recovery time has been added in to 'improve' punctuality.

 

[IKBrunel]

The Leicester Lincoln trains are more often late than on time leaving Leicester in the evening. Which presumably has a knock on effect. I think due to conflicts with other paths exiting Leicester. Not sure if there are any plans for rationalisation at Leicester to reduce number of points?

 

[43074]

The Leicester Lincoln trains are more often late than on time leaving Leicester in the evening. Which presumably has a knock on effect. I think due to conflicts with other paths exiting Leicester. Not sure if there are any plans for rationalisation at Leicester to reduce number of points?

I understand there are fairly radical plans for the Leicester area generally, including a flyover at Wigston Junction (where the Birmingham line diverges from the Midland Main Line) or Syston Junction (Where the line to Peterborough diverges from the Midland Main Line - I don't think anyone's quite decided which junction it should be built at yet). Changes will have to be made in the station area to enable the electrification of the London Road Tunnel at the South end of Leicester station.

They also want to increase capacity - a current waste of capacity is that when Ivanhoe Line services from Lincoln arrive at Leicester, they have to cross from the Up/Down Slow to the Up Fast and then into Platform 4 and vice versa when they depart, because there is no direct access to that platform from the slow line. This capacity that could be better used in a different way and if there is a late running London service (particularly the xx:25 off Leicester to St Pancras) the Ivanhoe service gets delayed as a result.

Back onto Nottingham to Lincoln services, I was under the impression that EMT were planning to extend Matlock services to Newark Castle and then accelerate the existing Leicester service, but I think ideally people in Lincoln and Newark want a more radical approach with 2tph between Lincoln and Nottingham. The demand is there, but the money to make it happen isn't!

 

[harry42]

Tourists also use this line to visit Lincoln from the east midlands, making summer holiday trains very busy at times. Lincoln Christmas market sees 8 car 222's on the line and these are cramped. In fact last year we were refused entry from Nottingham on this train.

Back to the subject, EMT have 4 car on Liverpool-Norwich, there pressured to have a 158 on derwent valley and now they suddenly want longer trains on Lincoln as well?They don't have the stock in my opinon.

 

[edwin_m]

I understand there are fairly radical plans for the Leicester area generally, including a flyover at Wigston Junction (where the Birmingham line diverges from the Midland Main Line) or Syston Junction (Where the line to Peterborough diverges from the Midland Main Line - I don't think anyone's quite decided which junction it should be built at yet). Changes will have to be made in the station area to enable the electrification of the London Road Tunnel at the South end of Leicester station.

They also want to increase capacity - a current waste of capacity is that when Ivanhoe Line services from Lincoln arrive at Leicester, they have to cross from the Up/Down Slow to the Up Fast and then into Platform 4 and vice versa when they depart, because there is no direct access to that platform from the slow line. This capacity that could be better used in a different way and if there is a late running London service (particularly the xx:25 off Leicester to St Pancras) the Ivanhoe service gets delayed as a result.

Back onto Nottingham to Lincoln services, I was under the impression that EMT were planning to extend Matlock services to Newark Castle and then accelerate the existing Leicester service, but I think ideally people in Lincoln and Newark want a more radical approach with 2tph between Lincoln and Nottingham. The demand is there, but the money to make it happen isn't!

There was a flyover considered at Wigston as part of Felixstowe-Nuneaton, which would also reinstate the fourth track through Leicester, but I'm not sure how much of this is going ahead. I can't see a flyover working at Syston as you'd have to swap the fast and the slow lines from there to Leicester where the station would be messed up, and it is also very near some housing. I think there was also a plan at one stage to lift a few of the sidings beyond platform 4 at Leicester and put a short bay platform in.

To me the Lincoln-Leicester isn't worth accelerating if it still has to do the local stops between Loughborough and Leicester. Far better to reduce it to a Leicester-Nottingham, extend the Matlock to Newark but also extend CrossCountry Cardiff or Birmingham fast to Lincoln with a decent connection at Nottingham into and out of fast Leicester trains.

 

[tbtc]

To me the Lincoln-Leicester isn't worth accelerating if it still has to do the local stops between Loughborough and Leicester

At the moment the "stopper" is around twenty minutes longer than the London services (fifty minutes versus thirty minutes)

I was hoping that electrification would mean that the "stopper" would be speeded up from Leicester to Nottingham (and no longer timed for 75mph stock).

In an ideal world, maybe there'd be an extra slow service, skipping some of the "Ivanhoe" stations, so that the difference would only be around ten minutes (forty versus thirty), so four trains an hour between the cities, basically "turn up and go".

To bring this back onto topic, electrification is presumably going to mean an end to the Lincoln services all running to Leicester. There are no shortage of services at the west end of Nottingham that Lincoln services could run through to. I'd say "no" to Cardiff/ Birmingham, because of the complications of putting longer distance services over the flat crossing at Newark. Probably either the Robin Hood or the Matlock I suppose.

 

[thenorthern]

I wouldn't say that its the worst line in the country, I have travelled on it a couple of times and it seems all right. I don't think that extending the Matlock trains to Lincoln would work but reinstating the Lincoln Central to Birmingham and Crewe trains I think would be better as they would provide the city with more connections.

Its lines like this that I think a single franchise for the whole region was better than having an East and West Franchise.

 

[ashworth]

Back in the late 1970's when I was at college in Derby I used to use the train to get there from Lowdham on the Lincoln to Nottingham line. In those days it was an hourly Lincoln-Nottingham-Derby-Crewe service.
If EMT had the stock I would like to suggest that a return to this service from 35 years ago would be the best option for many improved journey opportunities. It would restore the through link from Nottingham to Crewe for connections onto the WCML and North Wales. It would also provide connections at Derby for Lincoln passengers for XC services to the SW. The service to Leicester is of little use for onward connections for passengers from Newark and Lincoln.

Just as a matter of interest does anyone know when the Lincoln-Crewe service finished? I know that there were a number of years after that when it ran as a Lincoln to Birmingham and even a Lincoln to Coventry service.

 

[thenorthern]

Just as a matter of interest does anyone know when the Lincoln-Crewe service finished? I know that there were a number of years after that when it ran as a Lincoln to Birmingham and even a Lincoln to Coventry service.

I think there was a train from Manchester Airport to Lincoln Central, one to Grimsby Town and one to Cleethorpes until 2003, these travelled through Crewe.

 

[stevefreestone]

From Gainsborough I tend to go via Worksop to Nottingham, just to avoid the dreadful bottleneck at Newark and the tortoise speeds around Carlton.

 

[Welshman]

Just as a matter of interest does anyone know when the Lincoln-Crewe service finished? I know that there were a number of years after that when it ran as a Lincoln to Birmingham and even a Lincoln to Coventry service.

I remember the Lincoln-Crewes being formed of Cl.120 dmus, but can't remember when they ended. Could it have been when Central Trains took over the franchise in 1997?
Certainly, Central Trains ran the Lincoln-Birmingham & Coventry services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think there was a train from Manchester Airport to Lincoln Central, one to Grimsby Town and one to Cleethorpes until 2003, these travelled through Crewe.

Central Trains extended its Skegness-Crewe service through to Manchester Airport, and the memory of riding a 153 all the way from Heckington to Manchester Airport haunts me to this day! But I don't recall a service from the Airport to Lincoln, Grimsby or Cleethorpes via Crewe.

The Skegness -Manchester Airport hourly service was useful for cross-country travel, despite it's stopping at every station.

However, that was soon broken-up because, I was told, of congestion on the Manchester Airport-Crewe section, difficulty in keeping punctuality when passing through centres as Crewe, Derby, Nottingham & Grantham [before the Allington curve was built], and disparity of loadings between Crewe-Nottingham and Nottingham -Skegness.

 

[ashworth]

I remember the Lincoln-Crewes being formed of Cl.120 dmus, but can't remember when they ended. Could it have been when Central Trains took over the franchise in 1997?
Certainly, Central Trains ran the Lincoln-Birmingham & Coventry services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Central Trains extended its Skegness-Crewe service through to Manchester Airport, and the memory of riding a 153 all the way from Heckington to Manchester Airport haunts me to this day! But I don't recall a service from the Airport to Lincoln, Grimsby or Cleethorpes via Crewe.

The Skegness -Manchester Airport hourly service was useful for cross-country travel, despite it's stopping at every station.

However, that was soon broken-up because, I was told, of congestion on the Manchester Airport-Crewe section, difficulty in keeping punctuality when passing through centres as Crewe, Derby, Nottingham & Grantham [before the Allington curve was built], and disparity of loadings between Crewe-Nottingham and Nottingham -Skegness.

The Lincoln to Crewe trains were nearly always formed of Class 120 DMU's when I regularly used them between Lowdham and Derby in the late 1970's.

The Skegness to Crewe trains started when the Lincoln-Crewe service was diverted to Birmingham instead of Crewe.

Also if I remember there was no regular off peak local DMU service between Nottingham or Derby and Birmingham at this time. The only way of getting to Birmingham from Nottingham was by getting the hourly Lincoln to Crewe train to Derby and changing onto a long distance now XC service. The other alternative was MML to Leicester and then a Norwich/Cambridge - Birmingham service from Leicester. There were just a handful of Nottingham -Birmingham DMU services at peak times only.

Also hard to believe now that in the 1970's at off peak times the only service between Nottingham and Derby was the hourly Lincoln to Crewe. The services from Skegness/Grantham all terminated at Nottingham.

 

[CockneySparrow]

First mentioned about the journey times a few months ago. Then again it doesn't surprise me about some of the comments.


The current service level has been like it for a number of years now; so i'm not sure where the EMT spokeswoman has been looking. Admittedly the trains have had a refurbishment and the majority of services are two-car units (in various formats), but apart from the lack of stock, as mentioned by the EMT spokeswoman, part of the problem is the lack of wanting change.


An hourly service between the two cities has been 'adequate' since EMT first took the route on; though under Central Trains there was a half hourly mixture of fast/semi-fast and stopping services.

Whether the County Council will be able to input any finance is yet to be seen... If they're like Lincoln City Council though it could be a 'token gesture'... To slightly off topic; a few months ago the City Council were looking to pull the plug on the Uphill Lincoln 'walk and ride' bus to save money. Now they've suddenly relaunched the service and are providing new vehicles. So like the trains the question has to be asked where exactly does the money come from for improvements when councils, be it city or county, are claiming to be so impoverished? Perhaps the TOC shareholders should fork out some spondulies!

Councils have money, these days they hoard it more than anything

 

[Derek Wilson]

There is still talk of extending some Robin Hood Line services along the former LDECR with stations at Warsop, Edwinstowe & Ollerton. So why not relay the line from Marnham & extend the service through to Lincoln?
It would save passengers from the Mansfield area having to go the long way round if going to Lincoln. A new station at Tuxford could possibly be a good idea as well. Most of the freight could be diverted that way which wold free up extra paths on the Nottingham Newark line. If the line was reconnected with a triangular junction it would be possible for freight trains to avoid Lincoln & Nottingham, plus avoiding the ECML bottleneck. About 7/8 miles of track to reinstate, plus the Newark flat crossing could stay as it is for a while longer.

 

[HSTEd]

Well what about this:
As the extra capacity desired is for passenger services, why can't we simply single the line that crosses the ECML on the flat and then run a single track bridge over the railway, climbing at a gradient that a lightweight multiple unit train can manage (although a freight can't)?

There is 740m to play with on the south side of the ECML between the A46 overbridge and the railway line, you should easily be able to get the clearance required with a multiple unit.
Freight trains can run across on the flat as they do now.

 

[RM-Taylor]

Any chance of the Grimsby to Leicester via Lincoln and Nottingham service returning on a basis that it runs more than one service a week which is on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[David Barrett]

Any chance of the Grimsby to Leicester via Lincoln and Nottingham service returning on a basis that it runs more than one service a week which is on a Sunday afternoon.

Not until E.M.T. have enough two car units and crews to make this possible. This brings us to the reason for the current situation after Central Trains redeployed the rolling stock used on the service (around 2002/3 as I recall) elsewhere and drafted in the 153s working a "sawn off" Grimsby Town/Newark North Gate Service.

Much of what is being said in this and the previous few posts has been well discussed in Sheffield Victoria's "State of rail travel in Lincolnshire" thread however.

 

[starrymarkb]

Not sure i've ever sen a figure quoted. However also the current lie of the land is a major factor against it. As it currently is the A46 by-pass is in the way. Nor would any bridge gain sufficient height at a suitable inclination for freight to maintain a reasonable turn of speed to rise above the ECML with Newark Castle station in its current position i believe.

IIRC BR were asked if they wanted to share the A46 bridge at the planning stage and declined.

 

[YorkshireBear]

IIRC BR were asked if they wanted to share the A46 bridge at the planning stage and declined.

Hindsight is a glorious thing. I doubt BR had the money to do something like that to be honest.

 

[thenorthern]

I think what Derek mentioned of re-opening the Mansfield to Newark line would help the line, I remember when I was at school near Mansfield people often complained of poor rail links to the town, I think having a Mansfield to Lincoln train with new stops at Rainworth, Farnsfield and Southwell would work quite well.