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Lines with a strong case for electrification that have no plans to be electrified

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Neptune

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Leeds-knaresborough - bimodes for through trains to york.
Over 90% of services now run Leeds - York on the route with a handful of Leeds - Harrogate or Knaresborough and vv services in the peaks and at the extremes of the day.

Electrification would be ideal for the route feeding into wires at either end but whether the bcr stacks up is another thing.
 
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JKF

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Over 90% of services now run Leeds - York on the route with a handful of Leeds - Harrogate or Knaresborough and vv services in the peaks and at the extremes of the day.

Electrification would be ideal for the route feeding into wires at either end but whether the bcr stacks up is another thing.
I think Bramhope tunnel is the expensive obstacle on that route.

I’d go for Leeds - Hull as there’s very few over bridges so fairly unchallenging, although any such work would be expected to go hand in hand with elimination of a lot of level crossings, which would make it much more costly.
 

507020

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Over 90% of services now run Leeds - York on the route with a handful of Leeds - Harrogate or Knaresborough and vv services in the peaks and at the extremes of the day.

Electrification would be ideal for the route feeding into wires at either end but whether the bcr stacks up is another thing.
Leeds - Harrogate - York electrification represents a BCR of 3.61 which is higher than for the Airedale and Wharfedale lines which by some miracle were electrified with the ECML when Harrogate wasn’t. The original 1981 plan included Harrogate but left the others Diesel.
 

Grecian 1998

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If they weren't so far from any other electrified route, Exmouth - Paignton and the St Ives branch would seem to have a decent case. Half hourly services with frequent stopping patterns meriting 2 x 150 on most services (although only in high summer in the latter case). Should allow small improvements in point to point times, giving a little more flexibility over single line sections. That said, some modern DMUs are almost as quick off the mark as most EMUs.

Saltcoats indicates it is possible to put up wires on coastal routes. The clearances in the tunnels on the sea wall might be an issue though, given they were all built as broad gauge single track tunnels which were widened later. Lowering the tracks through the tunnels probably isn't practical. Can't think of any other major infrastructural issues though.

If / when the wires ever reach Bristol it would also seem sensible to wire to W-S-M to allow all electric local services, and to Severn Beach, again to improve flexibility over single line sections with superior acceleration.

It wouldn't surprise me however if in the event that the Peninsular main line is electrified in future, none of the branches are, although by the time the wires might realistically reach Exeter, we should know how good battery / hydrogen / bionic duckweed are as power sources for trains.
 

Bald Rick

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we should know how good battery / hydrogen / bionic duckweed are as power sources for trains.

We know that now (for batteries) and the answer is ‘more than good enough’ for branch line services in the West Country. It will need charging infrastructure though.
 

Kite159

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The Manchester - Warrington Central - Liverpool route. Like the Shotts route it is a basic 2 track railway with a couple passing loops [plus some sidings at Warrington] so no complex junctions. Plus the wiring is already done at the Manchester end for Trafford Park and very nearly connects at the Liverpool end [for access to the depot]. The sort of route which could probably be closed for a couple months to do the wiring in one big bang

Would allow the stoppers to run as EMUs with the fast services run to Manchester Airport rather than being long distance services which poor time keeping (so the Cleethorpes & Nottingham trains can terminate in the main train shed at Piccadilly)
 

Bletchleyite

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The Manchester - Warrington Central - Liverpool route. Like the Shotts route it is a basic 2 track railway with a couple passing loops [plus some sidings at Warrington] so no complex junctions. Plus the wiring is already done at the Manchester end for Trafford Park and very nearly connects at the Liverpool end [for access to the depot]. The sort of route which could probably be closed for a couple months to do the wiring in one big bang

Would allow the stoppers to run as EMUs with the fast services run to Manchester Airport rather than being long distance services which poor time keeping (so the Cleethorpes & Nottingham trains can terminate in the main train shed at Piccadilly)

Probably need to decide if Northern Powerhouse Rail would allow this route to be Merseyrail and Metrolink before doing 25kV wires.
 

Irascible

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We know that now (for batteries) and the answer is ‘more than good enough’ for branch line services in the West Country. It will need charging infrastructure though.

What are we looking at these days? Exeter-Barnstaple is 126km round trip. There's room at Barnstaple for some sort of charger, but the turnaround is about 6 mins I think. I don't think St Davids is a great place to be charging units...

Paignton has loads of infrastructure to find a place to put a point, some of the Cornish lines might be a bit more awkward.
 

Irascible

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Charging doesn’t have to be just when the trains are stopped...

Last time I suggested partial electrification for charging I got slightly lampooned for wanting to run cables everywhere but not on masts :p that is a slightly larger infrastructure commitment - which I'm fine with obviously but not really a 1 for 1 swap for a diesel operation.
 

tbtc

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I think that, if we are using "green" arguments to justify electrification, we'd be a lot better off focussing on core sections of busy lines and using bi-modes

We can't wire everything up, we have to prioritise, and (whilst some bits of route are cheaper/more expensive than others to wire) every mile of low frequency branchline that you want to wire up comes at the cost of wiring up some main lines elsewhere

So, in the West Midlands, do Dorridge to Stourbridge (since the reduced frequency to Stratford/ Worcester would mean a lot more wiring, the marginal benefits become smaller the further out you go) - that way you could have the frequent DMUs through central Birmingham replaced by EMUs but then run them on batteries for the far ends of their services...

...same with the proposals for Edinburgh to Dalmeny (you could go all the way through Fife, but then you could use the money for Maryhill/ Kilmarnock etc instead)

Focus on improving air quality in city centre stations, introduce fast accelerating EMUs for the frequent stopping sections, let batteries (or diesel) take the strain for the extremes - we know that bi-modes work, we know that battery technology will work on shorter sections (but we are reluctant to trust long services entirely to them - however running most of the journey under the wires would give sufficient opportunity to charge the batteries) - and focussing on the central sections would enable big improvements whilst allowing scope for future expansions

If you can deliver over 80% of the benefits for half of the total cost then why would you use finite budgets to wire bits of route with an hourly train at best, when that money could be used for other busy sections

Bi-modes are the future

Uckfield line. Just electrify the Southern diesel islands & get rid of the 171s in one fell swoop!

If one metric is "DMU carriages freed up per mile electrified" then Uckfield has to be one of the highest scorers

(usual proviso re battery operation etc etc)

Uckfield seems to justify ten coach trains, and the ten coach trains spend half the route on electrified sections, whereas Marshlink is more about two coach DMUs which don't spend much of their time on electrified sections... Uckfield is a much bigger priority than Marshlink IMHO

Avanti don't seem to show interest in diverting that way

Yet again, because someone doesn't do something, it must be because they aren't interested (rather than working out that running WCML trains to Glasgow via Newcastle/ Edinburgh would take around three hours longer than the regular route, whereas sticking them on a coach up the M74 is fairly competitive time wise, or that they don't have enough trains for the long diversion via Newcastle/ Edinburgh, even assuming that there were paths through Edinburgh for them) - easier to dismiss it as them just not being bothered I guess!

The Manchester - Warrington Central - Liverpool route. Like the Shotts route it is a basic 2 track railway with a couple passing loops [plus some sidings at Warrington] so no complex junctions. Plus the wiring is already done at the Manchester end for Trafford Park and very nearly connects at the Liverpool end [for access to the depot]. The sort of route which could probably be closed for a couple months to do the wiring in one big bang

Would allow the stoppers to run as EMUs with the fast services run to Manchester Airport rather than being long distance services which poor time keeping (so the Cleethorpes & Nottingham trains can terminate in the main train shed at Piccadilly)

That looks like a priority - all of the complicated stuff has already been done (the city centres/ the junctions) - if you terminated all Hope Valley services in the main shed then that would allow 13/14 at Piccadilly to be operationally independent of the Stockport (etc) lines which would improve reliability across greater Manchester and beyond
 

najaB

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Last time I suggested partial electrification for charging I got slightly lampooned for wanting to run cables everywhere but not on masts :p that is a slightly larger infrastructure commitment - which I'm fine with obviously but not really a 1 for 1 swap for a diesel operation.
Discontinuous electrification is happening in Scotland in a big way. By 2035 the plan is that there should be no (or very little) passenger operation using diesel trains.
 

Bald Rick

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Last time I suggested partial electrification for charging I got slightly lampooned for wanting to run cables everywhere but not on masts :p that is a slightly larger infrastructure commitment - which I'm fine with obviously but not really a 1 for 1 swap for a diesel operation.

yeah well, lampooners might soon be having to look the other way. I’m reasonably convinced that discontinuous electrification and batteries will be a ‘thing‘, and relatively soon.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I think Bramhope tunnel is the expensive obstacle on that route.

I’d go for Leeds - Hull as there’s very few over bridges so fairly unchallenging, although any such work would be expected to go hand in hand with elimination of a lot of level crossings, which would make it much more costly.

Regarding Leeds - Hull, I recall reading somewhere years ago* that First Group (Hull Trains) had done a study and put forward proposals to electrify Doncaster - Hull via Selby (unsure if they also included the diagonal route via Goole as well). which they would pay for themselves and charge other TOCs/Network Rail for using the wires along that section (or something along those lines).

Did anything further come from that, or was it eventually shelved?

*I'm going back to around 2008-12 or thereabouts, as there was also a proposal for the Harrogate Loop to be third rail 750V DC so as to be able to use cascaded former London Underground stock.
 

Bald Rick

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Regarding Leeds - Hull, I recall reading somewhere years ago* that First Group (Hull Trains) had done a study and put forward proposals to electrify Doncaster - Hull via Selby (unsure if they also included the diagonal route via Goole as well). which they would pay for themselves and charge other TOCs/Network Rail for using the wires along that section (or something along those lines).

Did anything further come from that, or was it eventually shelved?

*I'm going back to around 2008-12 or thereabouts, as there was also a proposal for the Harrogate Loop to be third rail 750V DC so as to be able to use cascaded former London Underground stock.

Yes that was a proposal, but conditional on them getting long term access rights, but IIRC also some financial chicanery about how it was financed.

It went no further. One suspects they had considerably underpriced it.
 

MattRat

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You'd have a shorter list if you asked about lines with a weak case for electrification. The railways are in such a terrible state, yet there seems to be zero passion to fix that by a lot of people, including people in these very forums.
 

philosopher

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I am surprised no one has yet directly mentioned the Chiltern Mainline, though the Snow Hill Lines from Birmingham have been mentioned a couple of times. Marylebone is the only non electrified terminus station in London and with a high number of frequently stopping services, surely must have a good case for electrification, at least up to Aylesbury and Oxford.
 

Bald Rick

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You'd have a shorter list if you asked about lines with a weak case for electrification. The railways are in such a terrible state, yet there seems to be zero passion to fix that by a lot of people, including people in these very forums.

There’s plenty of pash(ion), but no cash.
 

Halish Railway

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I am surprised no one has yet directly mentioned the Chiltern Mainline, though the Snow Hill Lines from Birmingham have been mentioned a couple of times. Marylebone is the only non electrified terminus station in London and with a high number of frequently stopping services, surely must have a good case for electrification, at least up to Aylesbury and Oxford.
Really part of it plus the New North Line, which could have allowed the Crossrail trains terminating at Paddington to continue onto stations on the Chiltern mainline. Also it would allow for improved performance on the proposed Chiltern Metro services between Marylebone and West Ruislip.
 

Bald Rick

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And when will there be? Because the costs will only keep going up as more problems arise.

Ask the Chancellor. Little more than what has already been announced for the next 7 years, is probable, in my opinion. But was already been announced does include the MML and Transpennine.
 

Bovverboy

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The problem with wiring that route is that you've got the Sheffield locals (the Hope Valley won't be wired any time soon) and so a lot of DMUs under said wires.
The OP made it clear that the section of route he was suggesting as a possibility for electrification was Hyde Junction - Romiley - Rose Hill Marple. On the present timetable only five passenger trains per week cover the section Hyde Junction - Romiley without continuing to Rose Hill Marple - 0710 SSuX Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central.
Other than that the only section with DMUs under the wires would be the just over a mile from Romiley to Marple Wharf Junction.
 
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Dr Day

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Going back to the title, particularly the word 'strong' - DfT/TS and NR must have done some analysis based on their own guidance on what stacks up and what doesn't to come up with the current plans. There is clearly a limited pot of money, but if the case, particularly the financial one, is that 'strong' then what are the funders clearly missing from their analysis that means 'strong' cases are being missed?
 

yorksrob

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Going back to the title, particularly the word 'strong' - DfT/TS and NR must have done some analysis based on their own guidance on what stacks up and what doesn't to come up with the current plans. There is clearly a limited pot of money, but if the case, particularly the financial one, is that 'strong' then what are the funders clearly missing from their analysis that means 'strong' cases are being missed?

Don't treasury business cases usually rely on financial payback directly of extra passengers (minus any anticipated abstraction of road tax etc).

Overall gains in terms of decarbonisation might not currently be reflected in that calculation.
 

Ken H

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Don't treasury business cases usually rely on financial payback directly of extra passengers (minus any anticipated abstraction of road tax etc).

Overall gains in terms of decarbonisation might not currently be reflected in that calculation.
Treasury will also rework the numbers with a socking great increase in contingency. Bet they have increased that after the cost overruns on GW and crossrail
 

Halifaxlad

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Why does every thread on electrification prompt responses of which lines x would like to electrify ?

Whilst some lines might be useful diversionary routes, it doesn't automatically make it a strong case to electrify!

As for the Calder Valley I would like to know how it has a strong case ? It will probably be done eventually but the amount of money that will be required, disruption it would cause and all to replace brand new trains makes the case rather questionable at the moment!

Try finding lines with actual business cases already drawn up!
 

LucyP

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Who even cares what powers the train. Spend the money on running the trains.
 

najaB

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Who even cares what powers the train. Spend the money on running the trains.
It's worth caring about because using electricity to power the trains (in normal times at least) means spending a lot less money running the trains.
 
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