Liverpool Street - Norwich via Cambridge

[306024]

Picking up from a closed thread, research by a retired Great Eastern timetabling guru has uncovered the following Liverpool St (LST) - Norwich (NRW) services via Cambridge.

From 16 May 1983 to 13 May 1984, the following ran:

08.35 Mon-Sat LST - NRW (11.05)
12.35 Mon-Sat LST - NRW (15.06)
18.05 Mon-Fri LST - NRW (20.57)
19.35 Mon-Sat LST - NRW (22.19)

06.37 Mon-Fri NRW - LST (09.24)
08.32 Mon-Sat NRW - LST (11.05)
11.34 Mon-Sat NRW - LST (14.04)
15.36 Mon- Sat NRW - LST (18.04)

Seems most only lasted a year, a curious piece of timetabling.

 

[jfollows]

I have the working timetables for the routes if there's anything else of interest.
1P60 08:35 Liverpool Street to Norwich D315 AIR
1P72 12:35 Liverpool Street to Norwich D315 AIR
1P98 18:05 Liverpool Street to Norwich D245 (Stansted, then all stations to Cambridge 19:23)
1P54 19:35 Liverpool Street to Norwich D245 AIR (Harlow Town, then most stations to Cambridge 20:48)

1C63 06:37 Norwich to Liverpool Street D245 (all stations Cambridge to Bishop's Stortford)
1C65 08:32 Norwich to Liverpool Street D245 AIR (Audley End, Bishop's Stortford, Harlow Town)
1C81 11:34 Norwich to Liverpool Street D315 AIR
1C93 15:36 Norwich to Liverpool Street D315 AIR

The D315 circuits were generally non-stop London-Cambridge, mixed with the King's Lynn services.
The D245 circuits were "commuter" workings, one of them Mark 1 (the SX working) by the look of it. Just working extra legs Cambridge-Norwich before/after their primary purpose, maybe for stock stabling as much as anything?

There were "normal" routings as well, for example
1C03 06:48 Norwich to Liverpool Street (Ipswich, Manningtree, Colchester) A/C stock
so little point in using the through services via Cambridge.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Did these also serve Breckland line stations? If not, what was the point of going-coming in and out of Norwich?
But if yes, they must have been pretty slow, what with all the stops south of Cambridge.

 

[jfollows]

Did these also serve Breckland line stations? If not, what was the point of going-coming in and out of Norwich?
But if yes, they must have been pretty slow, what with all the stops south of Cambridge.

"Breckland Line", sorry, not from the area, I don't understand this.
They called at Ely and various stations between there and Norwich, eg Shippea Hill, Brandon, Thetford, Attleborough & Wymondham although the detail varied between trains.
Ah, OK, I looked it up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breckland_line):

The Breckland line is a secondary railway line in the east of Englandthat links Cambridge in the west to Norwich in the east. The line runs through three counties: Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk. It takes its name from the Breckland region of Norfolk and passes through Thetford Forest.

The line is 51 miles 8 chains (82.2 km) in length, from where it branches off the Fen line north of Ely to where it joins the Great Eastern Main Linesouth of Norwich. There are 12 stations on the line, including the termini.

EDIT 1C63 Norwich-Cambridge timetable attached. In this case, being the SX service, there's a DMU as far as Ely for a connection to Cambridge on Saturday mornings.

 

[30907]

TBH I'd completely forgotten - and I was still college BR person for another month.

I suspect someone noticed that the Lynn services weren't busy north of Ely, and wondered if the market would support a resumed through service from Thetford - no additional stock was required. I presume DMU connections to Lynn were provided, using the units that had worked Ely-Norwich.

 

[jfollows]

I presume DMU connections to Lynn were provided, using the units that had worked Ely-Norwich.

Yes, for the D315 workings anyway, which essentially ran in the same paths south of Ely as the regular King's Lynn through trains. For the other two workings there were enough rush hour extras anyway on weekdays and Saturdays weren't catered for.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Up until about 1960 through trains Liverpool St. to Norwich via Cambridge were the norm, with King's Lynn / Hunstanton served by portions off these services. It was, of course, the original route to Norwich predating the Ipswich route.

 

[Taunton]

This had always been the way, back to steam days, that the express Liverpool Street to Norwich service was shared, some via Ipswich, some via Cambridge. It was why there was quite a substantial stud of Britannia Pacifics via both routes back in the 1950s, it carried on to Class 40 days in the 1960s, but via Canbridge seemed to die out in that time.

 

[30907]

This had always been the way, back to steam days, that the express Liverpool Street to Norwich service was shared, some via Ipswich, some via Cambridge. It was why there was quite a substantial stud of Britannia Pacifics via both routes back in the 1950s, it carried on to Class 40 days in the 1960s, but via Canbridge seemed to die out in that time.

I can't access the relevant timetable ATM but fairly certain regular daytime services LST-CBG-NRW ceased in 1959. They definitely don't appear in the 1961 book online.

 

[Magdalia]

Picking up from a closed thread, research by a retired Great Eastern timetabling guru has uncovered the following Liverpool St (LST) - Norwich (NRW) services via Cambridge.

From 16 May 1983 to 13 May 1984, the following ran:

08.35 Mon-Sat LST - NRW (11.05)
12.35 Mon-Sat LST - NRW (15.06)
18.05 Mon-Fri LST - NRW (20.57)
19.35 Mon-Sat LST - NRW (22.19)

06.37 Mon-Fri NRW - LST (09.24)
08.32 Mon-Sat NRW - LST (11.05)
11.34 Mon-Sat NRW - LST (14.04)
15.36 Mon- Sat NRW - LST (18.04)

Seems most only lasted a year, a curious piece of timetabling.

The key factor was the opening of Crown Point in October 1982, and the changes in carriage working that followed.

The 0637 up had been running as 0634 from Norwich since June 1981.

Did these also serve Breckland line stations?

They called at Ely and various stations between there and Norwich, eg Shippea Hill, Brandon, Thetford, Attleborough & Wymondham although the detail varied between trains.

All of them called at Brandon, Thetford, Attleborough and Wymondham.

All except the 0835 down and 1536 up also called at Shippea Hill. At that time Shippea Hill was a key rail head for the USAF bases at Mildenhall and Lakenheath.

The 0637 up also called at Lakenheath.

I presume DMU connections to Lynn were provided

0959/1359 Ely-Kings Lynn and 1250/1638 Kings Lynn-Cambridge, the up trains offering very poor connections.

Saturdays weren't catered for.

More important things for the stock to be doing on summer Saturdays.

Up until about 1960 through trains Liverpool St. to Norwich via Cambridge were the norm, with King's Lynn / Hunstanton served by portions off these services. It was, of course, the original route to Norwich predating the Ipswich route.

This had always been the way, back to steam days, that the express Liverpool Street to Norwich service was shared, some via Ipswich, some via Cambridge. It was why there was quite a substantial stud of Britannia Pacifics via both routes back in the 1950s, it carried on to Class 40 days in the 1960s, but via Canbridge seemed to die out in that time.

I can't access the relevant timetable ATM but fairly certain regular daytime services LST-CBG-NRW ceased in 1959. They definitely don't appear in the 1961 book online.

The two big timetable changes were in January and November 1959, following a few changes in September 1958 when the prototype EE T4s and Brush T2s first had booked passenger work. These changes eliminated most of the splitting and joining at Ely, Ipswich and Beccles.

The EE T4s mostly worked the Ipswich route, they did not have much work on the Cambridge line.

One anomaly is that all through the 1960s and 1970s the Sunday service never lost through trains Liverpool Street-Norwich via Ely.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Were there any trains from Wells to Liverpool Street?

 

[jfollows]

Were there any trains from Wells to Liverpool Street?

The one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells-next-the-Sea_railway_station) that closed in 1964?

 

[Magdalia]

Were there any trains from Wells to Liverpool Street?

I have researched timetables back to the 1950s and not found any through carriages between Wells next the Sea and Liverpool Street, but I suppose there might have been portions detached/attached at Wymondham at some point in the past.

The only through workings, that I'm aware of, between Liverpool Street and the Wells next the Sea line are the pilgrimage trains to Walsingham. The last of these ran from Liverpool Street to Walsingham and back only a few weeks before the line closed. I suspect that they may have run empty from Walsingham to Wells next the Sea and back but don't have any firm evidence of that.

I have yet to find any pictures of the pilgrimage trains or reports of what traction was used. Can anyone help here?

 

[Helvellyn]

Was there electrification work taking place on the GEML in 1983/84 as part of the slow progression towards Norwich that might have seen slower/reduced journeys outside the peaks so putting these services on was seen as useful? A bit like when the Midland Line was more heavily used during the 1960s for WCML electrification (or the 'Rio' services during WCML modernisation)?

 

[Magdalia]

Was there electrification work taking place on the GEML in 1983/84 as part of the slow progression towards Norwich that might have seen slower/reduced journeys outside the peaks so putting these services on was seen as useful? A bit like when the Midland Line was more heavily used during the 1960s for WCML electrification (or the 'Rio' services during WCML modernisation)?

The first timetable changes to allow for electrification work were in October 1983 when additional time in weekday off peak Norwich via Ipswich schedules was introduced and three Sunday morning trains in each direction were diverted to run via Cambridge instead of Ipswich.

It is an interesting question as to whether this was foreseen when the May 1983 timetable was finalised.

 

[306024]

The first timetable changes to allow for electrification work were in October 1983 when additional time in weekday off peak Norwich via Ipswich schedules was introduced and three Sunday morning trains in each direction were diverted to run via Cambridge instead of Ipswich.

It is an interesting question as to whether this was foreseen when the May 1983 timetable was finalised.

Thanks for all your research, interesting reading. I just wish my memory could answer why those through trains didn’t survive any longer than they did.

 

[jfollows]

1987-88 there were (Cambridge having been electrified)
1H24 17:35 SX Liverpool Street - Norwich E315/D315 VB (Audley End & Whittlesford, Cambridge and a number of stations)
1H28 19:35 SO Liverpool Street - Norwich E315/D315 VB (Tottenham Hale, Bishop's Stortford then all stops to Cambridge)

1H13 06:15 SX Norwich - Liverpool Street D315/E315 VB (Whittlesford & Audley End)
1C39 22:49 SX Postal Norwich - Liverpool Street D245 VB

so just a slight attempt to maintain some through services over the route, presumably for the intermediate stations, although really just one service on weekdays at rush hour/business day trip times.

(1C39 shows in the public timetable for 85-86, so presumably still did in 87-88.)

 

[Magdalia]

1987-88 there were (Cambridge having been electrified)
1H24 17:35 SX Liverpool Street - Norwich E315/D315 VB (Audley End & Whittlesford, Cambridge and a number of stations)
1H28 19:35 SO Liverpool Street - Norwich E315/D315 VB (Tottenham Hale, Bishop's Stortford then all stops to Cambridge)

1H13 06:15 SX Norwich - Liverpool Street D315/E315 VB (Whittlesford & Audley End)

These only ran until the end of the 1987 summer timetable.

1C39 22:49 SX Postal Norwich - Liverpool Street D245 VB

This one has a long and complicated history. I can't find all of the chapters in the story, but it ceased to be advertised as a through passenger train in May 1986.

 

[Springs Branch]

I have hazy memories from the late 1970s and early 80s of several trips on the last train of the day from Liverpool Street to Cambridge (23-something from LST).

It was the era when the wires ran out at Royston and Bishops Stortford. Train was Mk.1 LHRC, which continued to plod along to somewhere beyond Cambridge, eventually arriving at its destination in the wee small hours. Can't remember whether it went to Norwich, or Peterborough. Or even if there were portions for Norwich and Peterborough.

Can anyone with an old ER timetable refresh my memory? I was most likely travelling on Sunday nights.

 

[jfollows]

Can anyone with an old ER timetable refresh my memory? I was most likely travelling on Sunday nights.

The Sunday 1977-78 down Sunday timetable attached.
23:06 Liverpool Street to Norwich, for example.

 

[Springs Branch]

The Sunday 1977-78 down Sunday timetable attached.

Thanks for that - it's confirmed I wasn't hallucinating about there being a train (the 00:48 arrival at Cambridge) which split for Norwich and Peterborough.

To be a nuisance - did that train, and the (presumably DMU) connection from Ely to Kings Lynn at 01:25, only run on Saturday night / Sunday mornings? Or did they operate every night through the week as well?

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for that - it's confirmed I wasn't hallucinating about there being a train (the 00:48 arrival at Cambridge) which split for Norwich and Peterborough.

To be a nuisance - did that train, and the (presumably DMU) connection from Ely to Kings Lynn at 01:25, only run on Saturday night / Sunday mornings? Or did they operate every night through the week as well?

Actually there was a 01:00 connection Ely-Peterborough on the Monday morning (it wasn't a through train on Sunday nights) although MX there was a through train 23:14 Liverpool Street to Peterborough leaving Ely at 01:19, plus a 23:00 Liverpool Street to Peterborough via Ipswich which left Ipswich 01:01 and Ely 02:20. And 23:29 from Liverpool Street via Cambridge SO.
Obviously just a single timetable year which I happen to have.
I have a working timetable from a few years earlier - 1973/4 - which shows similar operations at Ely.

 

[Magdalia]

This was a long standing train that was eventually hit by the big cutbacks in overnight Anglian trains around 1980/81.

My timetable collection suggests that the 2314SX departure time from Liverpool Street, with advertised portions to Norwich and Peterborough, dates back to 1968, though the train has a much longer history.

The Cambridge-Kings Lynn connection on Tuesday to Saturday morning was hauled, only the Sunday morning Ely-Kings Lynn connection was a DMU.

There was no Kings Lynn connection on Sunday night/Monday morning.

The 2314SX from Liverpool Street continued to have advertised through carriages to Peterborough until May 1983.

 

[Taunton]

If I am not mistaken there was this very late service from Liverpool Street via Cambridge to Norwich, and also another via Ipswich to eventually Peterborough, known as the "Haughley Mail" as it turned off the main line at Haughley Junction. Did these two connect at Ely where their paths crossed?

We tend to think of services for passengers only nowadays, but in former times night Class 1 services were run as much for parcels, newspapers and mail, with a few passenger coaches attached.

 

[47421]

during Ipswich tunnel closure in 2004 there were two 47 hauled trains each way on weekdays Norwich - Liv St via Camb (some via Tott Hale some Seven Sisters IIRC), see this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/geml-closure-31-01-to-22-03.111161/

0630 Norwich - Liverpool Street
1212 Norwich - Liverpool Street
1147 Liverpool Street - Norwich
1727 Liverpool Street - Norwich

 

[Magdalia]

also another via Ipswich to eventually Peterborough, known as the "Haughley Mail" as it turned off the main line at Haughley Junction.

The Haughley mails had Peterborough and Norwich portions in both directions. A long time ago they divided/joined at Haughley but in latter days this was done at Ipswich. The Peterborough portions had Travelling Post Offices (TPOs). I'm less sure about the Norwich portions.

Did these two connect at Ely where their paths crossed?

Up direction yes, but down direction no. The up train from Norwich via Cambridge did not have a Peterborough portion.

We tend to think of services for passengers only nowadays, but in former times night Class 1 services were run as much for parcels, newspapers and mail, with a few passenger coaches attached.

In Anglia the news trains were separate, and mostly not advertised. The exception was the 0400 ex Liverpool Street which conveyed news as far as Cambridge but for a long time the passenger coaches went through to Norwich.