Liverpool to Birmingham

[CICERO55]

does anyone know if and when LNWR will reinstate 2 trains per hour on this route (mon to sat)?

 

[Watershed]

There is passive provision for it in the latest WCML timetable recast. But it has always been subject to additional funding being released by the DfT - as it would cost (slightly) more in terms of crew resources - and I can hardly imagine that this will be forthcoming under the current circumstances.

That being said, in the May TT change, XC did reinstate most of their missing/curtailed Manchester to Bristol and Bournemouth services, so it's not impossible - just unlikely to happen in the near to medium term future.

 

[185]

I hear secondhand that the Crewe - Stoke - Stone - Birmingham service may be being permanently terminated at Stafford come December. Shuttle will operate hourly Crewe - Stafford - Crewe. Would be nice if that could run to & from Liverpool however I think the freed up surplus traincrews will be needed for training on the new Bombardier sets.

If half hourly is a problem, perhaps Avanti could at least be pushed into doing Hartford on some Liverpools - in addition to their plans to do South Parkway this could go some way to rebalance the missing service. Also LNR could be retimed onto the opposite half hour to give a roughly half hour service.

 

[Watershed]

I hear secondhand that the Crewe - Stoke - Stone - Birmingham service may be being permanently terminated at Stafford come December. Shuttle will operate hourly Crewe - Stafford - Crewe.

Charming. Can't even see that it will save much in the way of resources - there will still need to be a service via Pleck to serve the new stations at Darlaston and Willenhall. So essentially you're just saving 1tph between Stafford and Wolverhampton.

Would be nice if that could run to & from Liverpool however I think the freed up surplus traincrews will be needed for training on the new Bombardier sets.

If half hourly is a problem, perhaps Avanti could at least be pushed into doing Hartford on some Liverpools - in addition to their plans to do South Parkway this could go some way to rebalance the missing service. Also LNR could be retimed onto the opposite half hour to give a roughly half hour service.

The LNR services wouldn't even need to be retimed - the "shadow paths" for the 2nd train an hour are already built into the timetable, so they just need to be used.

Beggars belief that Avanti and LNR didn't coordinate with one another to run to Liverpool in opposite half hours, when they each made the decision to run a cut-down version of the full recast timetable.

 

[The Planner]

December, and as said above, the Potts service is cut back. Willenhall and Darlaston arent opening in the next year either

 

[trundlewagon]

Potts service is cut back

I guess it's not too bad if the second Liverpool is coming back (assuming it's a decent connection at Stafford).

Is it permanent or just until Darlo and Willenhall open and/or while 730 training happens?

 

[Kite159]

That will be interesting come Sunday mornings when the first Liverpool - Birmingham LNR train gets into Birmingham 100 or so minutes later than the current Crewe - Birmingham via Stoke train (current first is
0905 Crewe to Birmingham New Street getting in at 10;39, first from Liverpool (10;33 departure gets into Birmingham at 12;18)

Not ideal for holders of LNR only tickets on days the Trent Valley is closed and it's magical replacement buses to Rugby taking longer than going via Birmingham.

 

[Watershed]

assuming it's a decent connection at Stafford

As if - these things are rarely looked at holistically. It's just not a priority, unfortunately. No doubt you'll have passengers off the Trent Valley or from Birmingham missing connections at Stafford on a daily basis - can't see the shuttles being held, that would be far too sensible!

Alsager, Kidsgrove and in particular Stone really have got a raw deal - they previously had through services to London, then those were substituted for trains to Birmingham, and now it's a shuttle to Stafford.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Alsager, Kidsgrove and in particular Stone really have got a raw deal - they previously had through services to London, then those were substituted for trains to Birmingham, and now it's a shuttle to Stafford.

Which will probably arrive in Stafford 5/10 minutes after the Euston/Birmingham train has left...

 

[Bevan Price]

As if - these things are rarely looked at holistically. It's just not a priority, unfortunately. No doubt you'll have passengers off the Trent Valley or from Birmingham missing connections at Stafford on a daily basis - can't see the shuttles being held, that would be far too sensible!

Alsager, Kidsgrove and in particular Stone really have got a raw deal - they previously had through services to London, then those were substituted for trains to Birmingham, and now it's a shuttle to Stafford.

And a future target for reduction to "parliamentary" levels of service, as not many passengers use them ?
Is this at request of LN - or some dimwit at DfT/Treasury ?

 

[185]

I do get the impression there was a disingenuous plot to create low figures and ridership to justify pulling the Stafford - Birmingham section of service.

1) The Potts train was pathed 5 minutes behind the Liverpool, so noone got on at Stafford or Penkridge.
2) The +20min excursion via Tame Bridge pushed those from Stoke to Birmingham onto the Crosscountry.

 

[The Planner]

I do get the impression there was a disingenuous plot to create low figures and ridership to justify pulling the Stafford - Birmingham section of service.

1) The Potts train was pathed 5 minutes behind the Liverpool, so noone got on at Stafford or Penkridge.
2) The +20min excursion via Tame Bridge pushed those from Stoke to Birmingham onto the Crosscountry.

Timetable conspiracy, thats a hell of a lot of lifting when someone could have just decided to pull the services anyway.

 

[Kite159]

Which will probably arrive in Stafford 5/10 minutes after the Euston/Birmingham train has left...

If based on current timetable, at least on a Sunday that is what happens. Arrives at Stafford at XX:44, the Crewe - London train is a 48 minute wait and the Liverpool - Birmingham LNR is a 55 minute wait.

I presume with the cutback to Crewe - Stafford via Stoke it can be worked with just 2 units rather than 4.

 

[childwallblues]

I use the LIV-BHM service a lot. The current one train per hour is pretty useless for connections at Crewe as it misses trains to Derby/Newark, South Wales and Euston via the Trent Valley resulting in a +45 wait.
Also at Stafford the Liverpool service has been reduced from 3 tph to 1 tph as Avanti no longer stop there either stopping at Milton Keynes Central instead.

 

[185]

Timetable conspiracy, thats a hell of a lot of lifting

The document doing the rounds repeatedly cites passenger numbers and ticket sales for the section of route, where there are two trains an hour, both within five minutes of each other. It doesn't take a genius that in any mode of transport the bus behind will always be empty.

 

[Kite159]

The document doing the rounds repeatedly cites passenger numbers and ticket sales for the section of route, where there are two trains an hour, both within five minutes of each other. It doesn't take a genius that in any mode of transport the bus behind will always be empty.

Especially when the first train is faster to reach the destination.

 

[Lewisham2221]

If based on current timetable, at least on a Sunday that is what happens. Arrives at Stafford at XX:44, the Crewe - London train is a 48 minute wait and the Liverpool - Birmingham LNR is a 55 minute wait.

I presume with the cutback to Crewe - Stafford via Stoke it can be worked with just 2 units rather than 4.

Surely, rather than have two units shuttling back and forth between STA/SOT/CRE, it would make more sense to couple them together and divert the EUS-CRE back via SOT like it used to? Okay, it would add around 20 minutes onto the journey time for Crewe passengers, but it would massively improve the journey time for passengers from Alsager, Kidsgrove, Longport, Stoke and Stone to/from London and the Trent Valley - and it would have zero impact on pax between EUS-STA.

 

[The Planner]

Surely, rather than have two units shuttling back and forth between STA/SOT/CRE, it would make more sense to couple them together and divert the EUS-CRE back via SOT like it used to? Okay, it would add around 20 minutes onto the journey time for Crewe passengers, but it would massively improve the journey time for passengers from Alsager, Kidsgrove, Longport, Stoke and Stone to/from London and the Trent Valley - and it would have zero impact on pax between EUS-STA.

Highly unlikely that it will go back to going via Stoke.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Highly unlikely that it will go back to going via Stoke.

Oh I don't doubt that for a minute. I was just saying that it would at least provide some benefit if it did. The shuttle situation, unless connections are improved (which I highly doubt they will, that would be too beneficial for passengers), benefits pretty much nobody

 

[Kite159]

Surely, rather than have two units shuttling back and forth between STA/SOT/CRE, it would make more sense to couple them together and divert the EUS-CRE back via SOT like it used to? Okay, it would add around 20 minutes onto the journey time for Crewe passengers, but it would massively improve the journey time for passengers from Alsager, Kidsgrove, Longport, Stoke and Stone to/from London and the Trent Valley - and it would have zero impact on pax between EUS-STA.

Other than you can't stop pairs of 350s at some of the stations on the route via Stoke due to short platforms and junctions.

So unless you want the Crewe - London service to go back to being a single 350

 

[Lewisham2221]

Other than you can't stop pairs of 350s at some of the stations on the route via Stoke due to short platforms and junctions.

So unless you want the Crewe - London service to go back to being a single 350

Doh! Of course. I was forgetting that it was a 4-car service previously. Tbh I'd just be happy with a sub 30 minute connection at Stafford, for Euston and/or Birmingham. Wishful thinking of course.

 

[OrangeJuice]

What are the connections like at Stoke/Stafford into the half hourly cross country to Birmingham?

 

[Fidelis]

At our meeting last week with WMT it was stated the timetable for interchange at Stafford will be:

Arrive Stafford southbound: - xx16 WMT.

Depart Stafford southbound: -xx21 XC; xx25 Avanti; xx 32 WMT.

Arrive Stafford Northbound: -xx 32 XC; or xx 34 WMT.

Depart Stafford Northbound: - xx43 WMT.

 

[Parjon]

Other than you can't stop pairs of 350s at some of the stations on the route via Stoke due to short platforms and junctions.

So unless you want the Crewe - London service to go back to being a single 350

Just before COVID, we saw 2 X Liverpool - London via Birmingham and Northampton. One was 8 car the other 4 car. Both services very reliable too.

I recall getting Euston - Crewe and I'm sure it was 8 car. Would this have been via Stoke, with one portion only calling at certain stations? Unless it detached somewhere I suppose.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Just before COVID, we saw 2 X Liverpool - London via Birmingham and Northampton. One was 8 car the other 4 car. Both services very reliable too.

I recall getting Euston - Crewe and I'm sure it was 8 car. Would this have been via Stoke, with one portion only calling at certain stations? Unless it detached somewhere I suppose.

When the CRE-EUS service first started, it ran via Northampton - 4 car Crewe to Northampton, where it attached to an ex-Birmingham 4 car service to run 8 car Northampton to Euston. I'm almost certain that stopped a  long time before COVID though, with the Crewe services running direct from Rugby to Milton Keynes. Others will be much better informed to fill in the gaps of exactly when what services did what.

 

[Kite159]

Just before COVID, we saw 2 X Liverpool - London via Birmingham and Northampton. One was 8 car the other 4 car. Both services very reliable too.

I recall getting Euston - Crewe and I'm sure it was 8 car. Would this have been via Stoke, with one portion only calling at certain stations? Unless it detached somewhere

So reliable that even before Covid hit the timetable was going to be scrapped due to being unreliable with through running at Birmingham?

Euston - Crewe used to run via Stoke with a couple peak time services which ran doubled up, skipping some of the stations (a separate Stafford - Crewe service ran which called at Stone etc). 2018 (I want to say) saw it getting changed to running direct between Stafford & Crewe with services being 8 coaches most of the day, with the separate Crewe - Birmingham via Stoke service being introduced which was due to attach to another service at Birmingham (maybe a Rugeley) to run to London.

 

[AJDesiro]

When the CRE-EUS service first started, it ran via Northampton - 4 car Crewe to Northampton, where it attached to an ex-Birmingham 4 car service to run 8 car Northampton to Euston. I'm almost certain that stopped a  long time before COVID though, with the Crewe services running direct from Rugby to Milton Keynes. Others will be much better informed to fill in the gaps of exactly when what services did what.

It’s worth noting that this wouldn’t be possible now will how well used both services are, it’s been noted in the 730 thread that Euston-Crewe will start using 12 car 350s, before the 730s come in, thanks to just how well used the service is now, it’s certainly successful.

I do find it baffling that they’re looking to discontinue the service though, it means Crewe gets an even worse service to Birmingham than it already does, at a badly spaced 2tph.

So reliable that even before Covid hit the timetable was going to be scrapped due to being unreliable with through running at Birmingham?

Euston - Crewe used to run via Stoke with a couple peak time services which ran doubled up, skipping some of the stations (a separate Stafford - Crewe service ran which called at Stone etc). 2018 (I want to say) saw it getting changed to running direct between Stafford & Crewe with services being 8 coaches most of the day, with the separate Crewe - Birmingham via Stoke service being introduced which was due to attach to another service at Birmingham (maybe a Rugeley) to run to London.

The through running at Birmingham was disgraceful, it really put me off using LNR for a while, I had high hopes for it but to budget-conscious people it was viewed as a cheap way of getting to Liverpool from london, so was always packed in my experience - combine that with the regular coupling/uncoupling, it was a recipe for disaster! They should really investigate 2tph on the Trent valley with one extending to Liverpool, it would do well.

 

[Parjon]

So reliable that even before Covid hit the timetable was going to be scrapped due to being unreliable with through running at Birmingham?

It's true that it wasn't as seamless as the 2 X Liverpool - New Streets, which were able to sit at platform 4c for 15 minutes, but as a regular user I never had any major problem.

I would be surprised if LNWR really were interested in removing the through running. The uptick in already healthy passenger numbers was really notable.

 

[AJDesiro]

does anyone know if and when LNWR will reinstate 2 trains per hour on this route (mon to sat)?

In an interview with the railway gazette, a director at WMT did say they were looking into reinstating 2tph when the 730s come in, as a 10 car 730/2 wouldn’t fit at many stations, so it made more sense to run them at half hourly intervals with 5 car units.

 

[Parjon]

I had high hopes for it but to budget-conscious people it was viewed as a cheap way of getting to Liverpool from london, so was always packed in my experience - combine that with the regular coupling/uncoupling, it was a recipe for disaster! They should really investigate 2tph on the Trent valley with one extending to Liverpool, it would do well.

Liverpool - Euston didn't uncouple.

What is wrong with it being a budget Liverpool-London route! It's called suppressed demand, and packed trains are good!

Note that it didn't do Virgin/Avanti passenger numbers any harm.