Livery under Great British Railways

[LUYMun]

Managed fine doesn’t mean it was the best idea.
Regional brands have marketing advantages.

Wouldn’t be great marketing if, say, a West Midlands branded train ends up operating a TransPennine Express service.

 

[Transilien]

Wouldn’t be great marketing if, say, a West Midlands branded train ends up operating a TransPennine Express service.

I don't think people would care THAT much if a train from a different reigon turned up. It happens anyway with the franchise system and also happened under BR. Liveries don't always reflect the area that the train travels and it would be impossible for that not to happen.

 

[Meerkat]

Wouldn’t be great marketing if, say, a West Midlands branded train ends up operating a TransPennine Express service.

Why would that happen?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why would that happen?

Currently we have WMR coloured 323s running Northern services, but yes, it's definitely a big deviation given TPE are trending towards 125mph services and WMR's new trains are limited to 90mph.

 

[miklcct]

My personal opinion is to use blue, white and red from the British flag, using the same meaning with South Western Railway (white = long distance, blue = regional and red = local).

 

[Mike Machin]

Judging by the fact that most people enter the station with a soft glow of light reflecting into their face emanating from the palm of their hand, and continue to fixated by the continual stream of digital information from their phone, they proceed to the platform, board the train, sit down, complete their journey, alight and exit the station with hardly a glance away from their screen. I think the train livery is of supreme indifference to the vast majority of passengers.

On my local line, the usual subtle Southern-liveried unit is occasionally substituted with a bright red Gatwick Express branded train, and nobody bats an eyelid and suspect most people don't even notice.

 

[redthegraduate]

Judging by the fact that most people enter the station with a soft glow of light reflecting into their face emanating from the palm of their hand, and continue to fixated by the continual stream of digital information from their phone, they proceed to the platform, board the train, sit down, complete their journey, alight and exit the station with hardly a glance away from their screen. I think the train livery is of supreme indifference to the vast majority of passengers.

I agree. But I'd suggest that a head-down, high-noise, high-distraction culture increases the need for clear, calm liveries and way-finding. The Elizabeth Line does this wonderfully.

People don't think they notice, but get it wrong and you get bottlenecks and angry people going to the help desk.

In fact, if there's a word I keep coming back to for the GBR liveries, it's "calm". I want the new look to be calming. Travel is stressful enough.

It was lovely to see the HS2-interior mock-ups, sans adverts, for example.

Let's have calm designs that are crystal clear at a glance, inside and out.

And while we're at it, the long-promised bonfire of the banalities.

 

[Russel]

And while we're at it, the long-promised bonfire of the banalities.

I'm guessing that was scrapped, if anything, announcements have increased!

 

[Mike Machin]

I agree. But I'd suggest that a head-down, high-noise, high-distraction culture increases the need for clear, calm liveries and way-finding. The Elizabeth Line does this wonderfully.

People don't think they notice, but get it wrong and you get bottlenecks and angry people going to the help desk.

In fact, if there's a word I keep coming back to for the GBR liveries, it's "calm". I want the new look to be calming. Travel is stressful enough.

It was lovely to see the HS2-interior mock-ups, sans adverts, for example.

Let's have calm designs that are crystal clear at a glance, inside and out.

And while we're at it, the long-promised bonfire of the banalities.

I completely agree. I have been a graphic designer for all of my working life working on all manner of branding projects and I concur that simplicity - a 'less is more' approach would be the perfect way to go eventually. There needs to be a holistic approach to the entire project, the 1964 BR Corporate Identity was a masterpiece at the time simply because it considered every aspect of the organisation's interface with the public and staff, with not just a logo, but corporate colours, fonts etc. Designers were then tasked with applying the identity to every facet, trains, stations, signage, uniforms, publicity items, posters - even carpets, mirrors and matchboxes.
I think that eventually we need to create a thoroughly contemporary but timeless 'look' for every aspect of the whole system.

As the identity needs to primarily reflect England, rather than the UK, this could be a good starting point for the colour palette. We don't need it to be bombastic and overtly nationalistic, that's for sure. As much of the existing rolling stock is already in a base colour of white or light grey, substituting areas of dark grey and red to replace the plethora of colours in existing liveries, to provide a livery similar to that used by Greater Anglia, could be a way of quickly bringing a cohesive new brand to the network. For example, the dark blue areas on South Western Railway or Northern could be overlayed with vinyl areas of red/grey but retaining the base grey.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I agree. But I'd suggest that a head-down, high-noise, high-distraction culture increases the need for clear, calm liveries and way-finding. The Elizabeth Line does this wonderfully.

People don't think they notice, but get it wrong and you get bottlenecks and angry people going to the help desk.

In fact, if there's a word I keep coming back to for the GBR liveries, it's "calm". I want the new look to be calming. Travel is stressful enough.

It was lovely to see the HS2-interior mock-ups, sans adverts, for example.

Let's have calm designs that are crystal clear at a glance, inside and out.

And while we're at it, the long-promised bonfire of the banalities.

I completely agree. I have been a graphic designer for all of my working life working on all manner of branding projects and I concur that simplicity - a 'less is more' approach would be the perfect way to go eventually. There needs to be a holistic approach to the entire project, the 1964 BR Corporate Identity was a masterpiece at the time simply because it considered every aspect of the organisation's interface with the public and staff, with not just a logo, but corporate colours, fonts etc. Designers were then tasked with applying the identity to every facet, trains, stations, signage, uniforms, publicity items, posters - even carpets, mirrors and matchboxes.
I think that eventually we need to create a thoroughly contemporary but timeless 'look' for every aspect of the whole system.

As the identity needs to primarily reflect England, rather than the UK, this could be a good starting point for the colour palette. We don't need it to be bombastic and overtly nationalistic, that's for sure. As much of the existing rolling stock is already in a base colour of white or light grey, substituting areas of dark grey and red to replace the plethora of colours in existing liveries, to provide a livery similar to that used by Greater Anglia, could be a way of quickly bringing a cohesive new brand to the network. For example, the dark blue areas on South Western Railway or Northern could be overlayed with vinyl areas of red/grey but retaining the base grey.

These are both great posts respectively, many thanks for your contribution and insight

 

[renegademaster]

For a calm and generic look, you could just copy the Thameslink visual identity and change the purple part for the TOC colour

 

[450.emu]

Essex Express "jaffa cake" livery should return to GEML on the 720's in the autumn after Greater Anglia transfers to GBR

 

[Sun Chariot]

Essex Express "jaffa cake" livery should return to GEML on the 720's in the autumn after Greater Anglia transfers to GBR

I was a teenager when London & South East's "Jaffa Cake" livery came out. It looked really smart on 309s and it even scrubbed up well on CEP/BEP/MLV units.
I always wondered how it would have suited the 73s and I have a spare Dapol 4mm body itching to be tried!

 

[450.emu]

I came up with this on Discord using the Wikia diagrams for services that were originally on the NSE network. Going with my idea of SE absorbing other franchises to become a "spiritual" successor to NSE.
Here is the BR Class 450.
(If you want to edit this, let me know first. Please don't be disappointed if I am most likely going to stay no.)

Might be a little confusing, as when I see South Eastern, I thought of the current franchise... I like the livery though. Bring back Network SouthEast... Greater Anglia could be nicknamed Big Ange like the hapless Spurs manager, and a variation of livery for the "Jaffa Cake" Essex Express to return

 

[Class450/4DES]

Might be a little confusing, as when I see South Eastern, I thought of the current franchise... I like the livery though. Bring back Network SouthEast... Greater Anglia could be nicknamed Big Ange like the hapless Spurs manager, and a variation of livery for the "Jaffa Cake" Essex Express to return

Yeah!

 

[Pete_uk]

Two images of class 800 in a GBR mock up livery to stimulate debate.

 

[Russel]

Two images of class 800 in a GBR mock up livery to stimulate debate.

Sorry to say, but they both look awful.

The combination of colours are too bold so they clash.

I'd suggest something like GA's current livery, smart and simple and doesn't involve forcing the colours of the union jack onto everything for the sake of nationalism.

 

[omnicity4659]

Based on the updated guidance issued over the past couple of years, I don’t believe blue is going to be a colour used by GBR.

 

[Class15]

Two images of class 800 in a GBR mock up livery to stimulate debate.

That actually looks brilliant! Great stuff!

 

[WibbleWobble]

I'd suggest something like GA's current livery, smart and simple and doesn't involve forcing the colours of the union jack onto everything for the sake of nationalism.

Agreed - it doesn't need to be overly complicated. Even something as simple as Northern's or South Western's* base livery designs would work, which would have an advantage of being adaptable if different types of services need differing colours (although if omnicity4659's post rings true, then it would reduce one obvious colour!).

 

[Akela]

The thing is, I’m not sure a “unified railway” is even a design goal of the current GBR proposals. The devolution white paper a while back talked about handing control of railways to regional local authorities in a manner similar to TFL, which for better or worse will probably lead to an even more fragmented system, though one which hopefully has more local accountability and better integration with other modes of transport.

From the paper:

Great British Railways will put passengers and local communities back at the heart of the railways and protect their interests – integrating the railways with other forms of transport to support seamless journeys for passengers. This will be underpinned by:

• Engagement with Strategic Authorities on how local rail ambitions can be reflected in the national rail planning processes, including through mayoral partnerships, building on the progress already made with Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.
• A statutory role for Mayors in governing, managing, planning, and developing the rail network, to further embed collaboration and bring decision-making as close as possible to local communities. We will consult on this role ahead of the legislation required to establish the functions of Great British Railways. Subject to royal assent, we will publish guidance outlining the core components that each tier of Strategic Authority can expect, reflecting the need for this to be flexible, place-based, and bespoke.

“Flexible, place-based, and bespoke” is not the sort of language you would use if the plan was to rebrand everything with the same BR-style livery and run the entire country’s rail network from a single centralised HQ - quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Trans Pennine]

Two images of class 800 in a GBR mock up livery to stimulate debate.

Looks absolutely awful but about what I'd expect from the cretin Musk's "Grok".

 

[Pete_uk]

Goes to show not everyone will be pleased!
All valid opinions of course.

I do think the regions will mostly stay the same. One day local and intercity might be split up as in the 80s.

 

[Flinn Reed]

I think there are several rough options that GBR could take for their branding.

If the whole network is largely going to have the same livery, this could either go down the route of something simpler (likely with a white or light grey base), like the current Thameslink, Greater Anglia, Northern or TfW liveries.

Or alternatively - which would be my preference - something more retro, considering the GBR name, and the railway history in the UK. Something like GWR's livery could be fitting if a nationwide brand is needed. The dark green has also been popular with other operators (Avanti, Caledonian Express, Southern, LNR), and I think would fit better at least for the more rural/regional routes.

There's also the possibility than each region of the country could keep its own brand, following from the current operators. Though if this were to be the case, there could be an argument to swap some routes around, at least in terms of branding. There are a number of services which would geographically fit better under a different operator, but instead run by one for operational reasons, for example GWR's Reading-Gatwick route. With all of GBR being under the same ownership when fully nationalised, perhaps the brands used could vary from the operational side of things?

Also with the Overground and Elizabeth Line run on behalf of TFL, and some rail services around Manchester due to receive Bee Network branding, another option could be to separate all other commuter/urban services from regional/intercity/rural ones. Brand the commuter routes according to that city, and the remaining services having a common GBR livery? Could also consider separating suburban routes around Cardiff/Glasgow/Edinburgh separately from the current TfW and ScotRail brands.

 

[450.emu]

I think there are several rough options that GBR could take for their branding.

If the whole network is largely going to have the same livery, this could either go down the route of something simpler (likely with a white or light grey base), like the current Thameslink, Greater Anglia, Northern or TfW liveries.

Or alternatively - which would be my preference - something more retro, considering the GBR name, and the railway history in the UK. Something like GWR's livery could be fitting if a nationwide brand is needed. The dark green has also been popular with other operators (Avanti, Caledonian Express, Southern, LNR), and I think would fit better at least for the more rural/regional routes.

There's also the possibility than each region of the country could keep its own brand, following from the current operators. Though if this were to be the case, there could be an argument to swap some routes around, at least in terms of branding. There are a number of services which would geographically fit better under a different operator, but instead run by one for operational reasons, for example GWR's Reading-Gatwick route. With all of GBR being under the same ownership when fully nationalised, perhaps the brands used could vary from the operational side of things?

Also with the Overground and Elizabeth Line run on behalf of TFL, and some rail services around Manchester due to receive Bee Network branding, another option could be to separate all other commuter/urban services from regional/intercity/rural ones. Brand the commuter routes according to that city, and the remaining services having a common GBR livery? Could also consider separating suburban routes around Cardiff/Glasgow/Edinburgh separately from the current TfW and ScotRail brands.

I think this is a great idea! White as the base colour then a variation of Greater Anglia's current livery would be good if theres going to be a regional division like Network SouthEast. The Double Arrow would be sufficient branding for the trains, no need to go too overboard in red white and blue nationalism like something out of GB News... Great British Railways name could feature in stations, advertising, but the logo is sufficient and doesn't need to be over complicated. Look at companies like Tesla or Volkswagen with easily recognisable brand logo's (or McDonalds for that matter).

A nod back to the past with dark green or maroon could be a possibility, but might be expensive for repaints /wraps... decent branding like SNCF for key routes would be good in different typefaces, don't put everything in Railway 2 font as it's not the most thrilling, that's the mistake TfL made with their disastrous bus branding around Ilford and Barkingside a few years ago. I like Greater Anglia's rabbit mascot which looks modern and could feature on InterCity routes in future.

GBR shouldn't get too diluted into offering too many other services like BR did with Red Star parcels, and Sea Link, and just focus on rail. Even National Rail is a decent name with the Double Arrow.

 

[Thirteen]

I think there are several rough options that GBR could take for their branding.

If the whole network is largely going to have the same livery, this could either go down the route of something simpler (likely with a white or light grey base), like the current Thameslink, Greater Anglia, Northern or TfW liveries.

Or alternatively - which would be my preference - something more retro, considering the GBR name, and the railway history in the UK. Something like GWR's livery could be fitting if a nationwide brand is needed. The dark green has also been popular with other operators (Avanti, Caledonian Express, Southern, LNR), and I think would fit better at least for the more rural/regional routes.

There's also the possibility than each region of the country could keep its own brand, following from the current operators. Though if this were to be the case, there could be an argument to swap some routes around, at least in terms of branding. There are a number of services which would geographically fit better under a different operator, but instead run by one for operational reasons, for example GWR's Reading-Gatwick route. With all of GBR being under the same ownership when fully nationalised, perhaps the brands used could vary from the operational side of things?

Also with the Overground and Elizabeth Line run on behalf of TFL, and some rail services around Manchester due to receive Bee Network branding, another option could be to separate all other commuter/urban services from regional/intercity/rural ones. Brand the commuter routes according to that city, and the remaining services having a common GBR livery? Could also consider separating suburban routes around Cardiff/Glasgow/Edinburgh separately from the current TfW and ScotRail brands.

Anything that's already devolved like the TfL rail services, Merseyrail, TfW and Scotrail will likely be kept separate branding wise

 

[Mark J]

GBR should bring back Network Southeast - and Chris Green ("the best chairman BR never had") to run it.

 

[Class 800]

GBR should bring back Network Southeast - and Chris Green ("the best chairman BR never had") to run it.

100% agree on Network SouthEast! But we know it's never going to happen.
As for an INTERCITY branding, we can only hope

 

[Sad Sprinter]

GBR should bring back Network Southeast - and Chris Green ("the best chairman BR never had") to run it.

In my alternative history story where BR is never privatised I think he does become chair of BR eventually.

I remember seeing in one of the older GBR threads an IET in a BR big logo livery. It looked incredibly striking.

I came up with the idea of using names of Monarchs as service types. For instance, Elizabethan Intercity could be the longest, fastest services. Victorian Intercity for longer distance regional ones. That’s new I guess.

 

[physics34]

Sorry to say, but they both look awful.

The combination of colours are too bold so they clash.

I'd suggest something like GA's current livery, smart and simple and doesn't involve forcing the colours of the union jack onto everything for the sake of nationalism.

Whole agree regarding GAs livery..also the interior. Smart, professional easy on the eye.
I would however bring back Intercity Swallow livery for long distance routes. It STILL looks modern.