LMS 5000

[RWLDproject]

A question for those with a bit of LMS loco knowledge out there - thanks in advance!

We've a staff accident report in the Railway Work, Life & Death project files that mentions LMS engine no. 5000. The accident took place on 16 Feb 1935, at Cheetham Hill Junction, Manchester. Could this be the same 5000 now preserved at Locomotion in Shildon? Or might the accident have involved a previous holder of the number 5000, assuming the LMS transferred numbers across locos?

Asking as info seems to vary on when the preserved Black 5 left Crewe - some say March 1935 (pointing to another engine involved in the Cheetham Hill Jct accident), some say Feb 1935 (which might make it possible for the Black 5 to have been the one - though pretty quick to have been involved in an accident!).

Grateful for the assembled knowledge and expertise out there - thanks!

 

[jp4712]

If the number is recorded accurately, I think it would have to be the Black 5 - the previous LMS 5000 a
was an ex-LNWR ‘Precedent’ 2-4-0 that had been withdrawn back in 1928.

 

[Bevan Price]

According to the RCTS history of Black 5s, 5000 entered service on 23 February 1935, and was initially allocated to Bristol.
It was the first of the class to have been built at Crewe.

5020 was the first to be built (at Horwich), entering service at Perth on 2 August 1934. At 16 Feruary 1935, locos 5020-5069 were in service. Of those, 5064-5069 were allocated to Newton Heath on 16 Feb. 1935.

 

[Magdalia]

In those days it was quite common to refer to loco classes by the number or name of the numerical first specimen in the class.

Also, as has already been indicated, locomotives did not always enter traffic in strict ascending numerical order, so the first specimen in numerical order need not be the first to enter traffic.

So you need to read the report very carefully to be sure that 5000 refers to that specific loco not just an unidentified loco from the 5000 class.

As an aside, when did the "5000 class" first get called "Black Fives"?

 

[The Crab]

In those days it was quite common to refer to loco classes by the number or name of the numerical first specimen in the class.

Also, as has already been indicated, locomotives did not always enter traffic in strict ascending numerical order, so the first specimen in numerical order need not be the first to enter traffic.

So you need to read the report very carefully to be sure that 5000 refers to that specific loco not just an unidentified loco from the 5000 class.

As an aside, when did the "5000 class" first get called "Black Fives"?

I understand that initially they were referred to as "Black 'uns" to distinguish them from the red Jubilees. I suspect that "Black 5" was post war.

 

[RWLDproject]

Thank you all so much for this really helpful conversation and detail - it's greatly appreciated. I've been back to the report and it just says 'Engine No. 5000' - so guessing it is a case of the general class number being used for an engine from that class, rather than the specific loco. Thanks to @Bevan Price especially for the allocation info - reckon those Newton Heath engines would be good contenders. (FYI, the accident involved a passenger guard, John Hull, who was injured during a stock movement.)

 

[norbitonflyer]

5020 was the first to be built (at Horwich),

Horwich did not build any Black 5s until 1945 (no 4932). Of the first 125, Crewe built 25 (No 5000-5019 and 5070-5074) and Vulcan Foundry builtthe rest.
Totals:
Vulcan Foundry 100 (from 1934 to 1935)
Armstrong Whitworth 327 (from 1935 to 1937)
Crewe Works 241 (from 1935 to 1938 and 1944-49)
Derby Works 54 (from 1943 to 1944)
Horwich Works 120 (from 1945 to 1950)
Total 842

(Data from Hugh Longworth's BR Steam Locomotives 1948-1968)

 

[Bevan Price]

Bevan Price said:


5020 was the first to be built (at Horwich),

Horwich did not build any Black 5s until 1945 (no 4932). Of the first 125, Crewe built 25 (No 5000-5019 and 5070-5074) and Vulcan Foundry builtthe rest.
Totals:
Vulcan Foundry 100 (from 1934 to 1935)
Armstrong Whitworth 327 (from 1935 to 1937)
Crewe Works 241 (from 1935 to 1938 and 1944-49)
Derby Works 54 (from 1943 to 1944)
Horwich Works 120 (from 1945 to 1950)
Total 842

(Data from Hugh Longworth's BR Steam Locomotives 1948-1968)

Thanks for the correction. I was writing from (incorrect) memory, as the part of the RCTS book I was looking at did not show the builder, only the dates of entry into service.