LNER Air-Con Dispute

[PG87]

Hi all- I am sorry if this is in the wrong thread.

Two of us travelled from Kings X to Edinburgh earlier this month on one of the very hot days of the heatwave. We had seats assigned and the train was full.

The air-con was working in some carriages and not others, and we were one of the unlucky ones. The guard apologised but there didn't seem much he could do, and we couldn't move carriages unless we wanted to stand all the way to Scotland. (Same thing on the return journey, but this time our carriage was fine and on a much quieter weekday service the excellent staff moved everyone affected to a different coach).

I'm not sure what the policy is for a refund on this kind of thing, I wasn't optimistic but thought I would email anyway, with a detailed message including that the train manager had confirmed the failure. I was surprised when the reply came and they disputed our claim about the air-con being broken. The customer service team said they had checked the logs and there hadn't been a fault reported, so 'in the interests of fairness to other passengers' they won't take our claim further.
I'm fully aware I won't be seeing any money back, but it is irksome to essentially be accused of lying.

Just wondering if anyone has ever successfully been compensated for an uncomfortable journey (something I had never considered), and how they can wrongly think the air-con was working fine?

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

There are a few people on Twitter complaining about lack of aircon to Edinburgh on Aug 3rd and 4th. Perhaps one of them is the same train you were on and you could use this as evidence in your claim.

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=@lner air conditioning edinburgh&src=typd&lang=en

 

[gray1404]

Write back to the company and ask them to look at it again. If this fails take the matter to Transport Focus.

 

[JN114]

Write back to the company and ask them to look at it again. If this fails take the matter to Transport Focus.

What are Transport Focus meant to do? - by rights the OP isn’t automatically entitled to anything. Sure a claim under Consumer Rights Act could potentially be brought; but that would be a civil matter for courts to pass judgment on...

 

[Clip]

Write back to the company and ask them to look at it again. If this fails take the matter to Transport Focus.

youll have to find out the relevant parts of the contract that is formed which states that the train that conveys you must have aircon working on it rather than the contract which is just to get you from A to B on a train,any train, or maybe a bus or taxi as last resort which is what you pay for

 

[najaB]

youll have to find out the relevant parts of the contract that is formed which states that the train that conveys you must have aircon working on it rather than the contract which is just to get you from A to B on a train,any train, or maybe a bus or taxi as last resort which is what you pay for

I agree - the OP isn't entitled to anything, however by continuing to engage with LNER in a convivial manner they may be able to get a gesture of goodwill.

 

[Clip]

I agree - the OP isn't entitled to anything, however by continuing to engage with LNER in a convivial manner they may be willing to get a gesture of goodwill.

Indeed but i fail to see what TF would be able to do really as aircon isnt a contractual part of your journey

 

[island]

Sorry, but I cannot agree with any suggestion that compensation be paid for a journey that’s uncomfortably hot. Your contract is to be taken from A to B, which you were.

I had to rewrite this post several times to avoid being potentially insulting.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Sorry, but I cannot agree with any suggestion that compensation be paid for a journey that’s uncomfortably hot. Your contract is to be taken from A to B, which you were.

I had to rewrite this post several times to avoid being potentially insulting.

And yet some ToC's will compensate you if you reserve a seat but have to stand for example.
(note - my point isn't that OP should necessarily get compensated for it, I'm undecided, but more that ToC's do pay out for things other than delays or cancellations.)

 

[87 027]

When I travelled in a carriage with broken air con before now we got free drinks from the buffet for the duration of the journey (Manchester - Euston) as a gesture on the day but I don't recall any offer of refund on the ticket price

 

[Bensonby]

Sorry, but I cannot agree with any suggestion that compensation be paid for a journey that’s uncomfortably hot. Your contract is to be taken from A to B, which you were.

I had to rewrite this post several times to avoid being potentially insulting.

People are perfectly entitled to complain about whatever they see fit: it’s not all about what may or may not be actionable in law.

I once wrote a very polite and understanding complaint expressing my disappointment at there being no meal service on a VTWC first class trip between Manchester and London a good few years ago. I received an apology and a voucher. They didn’t need to provide the voucher but it was a gesture of goodwill. Sometimes just an acknowledgement or an outline of their plan to ensure it doesn’t happen again is good enough. In this instance I think the OP is most aggrieved at essentially being called a liar.

 

[PG87]

Thanks all for the replies. Wasn't expecting any compensation until I saw LNER's Twitter suggesting people contact customer services. Probably won't get into a large row with LNER over it, just found it odd how they contested the facts.

 

[Quaver]

In this instance I think the OP is most aggrieved at essentially being called a liar.

It may genuinely be that the records that the advisor who processed the complaint has, show that there was no issue, this may be a reporting issue where no one reported it for it to be logged that the air con was broke, so as far as the advisor knows, the Air Con was working with no record of the fault

 

[najaB]

I'm fully aware I won't be seeing any money back, but it is irksome to essentially be accused of lying.

They aren't saying you're lying - they've said that no fault was reported.

 

[The North Briton]

I would be very surprised if the complaint handler had access to the system where rolling stock defects are logged. Whereas, they will have access to systems which record train delays, lack of reservations, short formations, etc.

 

[Quaver]

I would be very surprised if the complaint handler had access to the system where rolling stock defects are logged. Whereas, they will have access to systems which record train delays, lack of reservations, short formations, etc.

Surely they should be able to check the recoedsrif it was logged

 

[gray1404]

There are two issues at play here. The OP has received a reply from LNER that they are unhappy with. Therefore, I have set out what their options are on how to take this further if they wish. There options in this case are limited to asking the train company to look at it again and then going to Transport Focus if they remain unhappy. As we all know, Transport Focus are not very effective but on occasion they can get a good result. I can understand the disappointment on the part of the OP, they travelled on a train on which some coaches had air con and others didn't. Their's didn't and the train manager applogised for such. Then when they complain to the company they receive a reply that implies there might not have even been a problem. Also, the "in fairness to other passengers" statement perhaps wasn't appropriate.

The other issue at play is if the OP has an contractual right to compensation. The answer on face value, if you look solely at the National Rail Conditions of Travel, would be no. The customer received transportation between the stations on their ticket and that is it, regardless of how bad the on board conditions were. However, if you looked at that alone then compensation under Delay Repay would not even apply and we all know that is an established system applied on most TOCs. The OP could argue that the service they paid for was not delivered with due care and skill or to a satisfactory quality. They may therefore have a valid complaint against the company and it would perhaps be wise to consider going via the company complaints process before considering a civil claim. If they paid for the ticket on a credit or debit card then they could also consider a dispute/chargeback via their bank on the same basis.

 

[Merseysider]

If they paid for the ticket on a credit or debit card then they could also consider a dispute/chargeback via their bank on the same basis.

For a lack of air conditioning?

I think that’s slightly over the top.

 

[gray1404]

I wouldn't do that personally. However, it is up to the OP to decide what they want to do from that options they have.

 

[najaB]

If they paid for the ticket on a credit or debit card then they could also consider a dispute/chargeback via their bank on the same basis.

What is the basis of the claim?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What is the basis of the claim?

I would have thought that the service is not delivered with reasonable skill and care. The fact that an overfilled train, or one without proper air conditioning, might entitle the customer to a partial refund in some circumstances seems to be an alien concept to much of the rail industry.

 

[najaB]

I would have thought that the service is not delivered with reasonable skill and care.

Unless the train was dangerously hot, I doubt any claim would succeed.

 

[AndrewE]

I think it is worth following up formally to make the point that on a very hot day people had to endure a long journey with allocated seats, failed air conditioning and no opening windows. It's not acceptable (and might put people off going by train again.) On an HST I think the windows and the vestibule doors can be locked open.
Even if you are not looking for compensation it's worth forcing the operator to admit that they left you in a most uncomfortable position that could have had health consequences if you were challenged in the lung department.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Unless the train was dangerously hot, I doubt any claim would succeed.

Trains can get very, very warm without air conditioning in the summer.

 

[najaB]

Trains can get very, very warm without air conditioning in the summer.

I know. But uncomfortably warm and dangerously hot are two different things. The former isn't grounds for a refund, the latter may well be.

 

[greyman42]

Do first class passengers get refunds if the air con fails on trains where there is no spare seats in other first class coaches?

 

[Haywain]

Do first class passengers get refunds if the air con fails on trains where there is no spare seats in other first class coaches?

In my experience, no.

 

[boxy321]

The TOC's other option would be to take the whole train out of service. This would be worse than carrying on? They should provide some compensation to those feeling the heat. It would be a tough thing to call on the day.

 

[35B]

I know. But uncomfortably warm and dangerously hot are two different things. The former isn't grounds for a refund, the latter may well be.

Define "dangerous". A journey I made mid-heatwave in a Hull Trains 180 came close to the boundary for me, and would have crossed it had I had my journey been much longer.

 

[PG87]

Thanks all for a range of very useful responses.