LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)

[YorksLad12]

Each Mark 4 coach (and I believe this includes the DVTs) is 23m long. 91s are 19.4m long. 800s and 801s are 26m long.
Total IC225 length: 249.4m, but 207m of effective passenger-carrying length. Total 9-car Azuma length: 234m.

Indeed. That would make the Azuma effective passenger carrying length around 208m then? The 2x5 sets fit all platforms where they run, even P6 at Leeds. But if there was a plan for a 10th car, by the time it was authorised, built, paid for and delivered we'd probably have HS2 so they wouldn't be needed...

What gets me is that there are fewer seats on a 10-car (2x5) set than a nine-car set. You think you're getting more but you're actually getting less.

 

[59CosG95]

Indeed. That would make the Azuma effective passenger carrying length around 208m then? The 2x5 sets fit all platforms where they run, even P6 at Leeds. But if there was a plan for a 10th car, by the time it was authorised, built, paid for and delivered we'd probably have HS2 so they wouldn't be needed...

What gets me is that there are fewer seats on a 10-car (2x5) set than a nine-car set. You think you're getting more but you're actually getting less.

The effective passenger carrying length removes the DVT and loco from the equation, although I don't know more specifically how much space is sacrificed by kitchens/buffets on either train off the top of my head.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Don't suppose anyone knows why there's a 5 car Azuma in Inverness just now? It seems to have come up from Neville Hill this morning and is going back this evening.

Realtime Trains - 5Z80 0517 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Inverness

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 5Z81 1405 Inverness to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[_toommm_]

Don't suppose anyone knows why there's a 5 car Azuma in Inverness just now? It seems to have come up from Neville Hill this morning and is going back this evening.

Realtime Trains - 5Z80 0517 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Inverness

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 5Z81 1405 Inverness to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Possibly route retention? They're not running to Inverness at the moment because of problems with crew lodging.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Don't suppose anyone knows why there's a 5 car Azuma in Inverness just now? It seems to have come up from Neville Hill this morning and is going back this evening.

Realtime Trains - 5Z80 0517 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Inverness

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 5Z81 1405 Inverness to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It went back this afternoon, about 10 minutes early at Culloden. Difficult to see number on my photos, but I think it was 800209.
Quite rare to see a 5 coach set on the Highland Main Line, could it be the first 800/2 up here? The tests I'd seen were 800/1s

 

[MML]

Given LNER have notified their intention to retain 10 sets of Class 91 with Mark 4 coaching stock for the short to medium-term service improvements, could the 12 x 5-car 801/1 electric units be extended to 9-car 801/2 electric units in the fullness of time ? As most 801/1 appear to work in multiple (2 x 5-car), then extension to 9-car would be equivalent to adding an additional 6 electric units for LNER services. Meaning a further order of 4 x 9-car electric units would be sufficient to replace the remaining old stock in entirety.

What was the reason for ordering 5-car electric units in the first place ?
I can understand the benefit for some bi-mode units to be 5-car length given there are some LNER destinations away from the primary electrified ECML. But I can't think of any benefit of 5-car electric units on the core trunk routes.

 

[YorksLad12]

Extensions from Leeds, for example. Bradford FS and Skipton are both under wires. Arrive in Leeds as 2x5 car, and split. From memory I think they and the evening Harrogate (diesel) extension are 30 minutes apart (1733, 1803, 1833 from London). If the onward paths from Leeds could be found you could run a sensible evening service to Bradford and Skipton using the one departure from London at, say, 1803.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Pretty sure there's now a booked divide on that 1803 from London (when the timetable is reinstated) - half to Huddersfield, and half to Skipton.

Other than that, wasn't there some discussion that that 80x will not be dividing in service particularly regularly? Not splitting the Bradford/Harrogate extensions at Leeds seems to somewhat negate the point of having those 5-car electrics...

 

[YorksLad12]

Wasn't sure which departure it was, but yes; I saw the Huddersfield half there on 16 March while waiting for a train to Leeds at around 9pm. Which sort-of makes my point that you could combine those peak-time extensions and get everyone home for a reasonable hour by splitting.

No, I heard it wasn't going to be a regular thing as well. I'd guess though that you have to have them running as pairs at some point during the day so that they're in the correct place for when they do need to split. Someone will know that diagram...

 

[gsnedders]

Given LNER have notified their intention to retain 10 sets of Class 91 with Mark 4 coaching stock for the short to medium-term service improvements, could the 12 x 5-car 801/1 electric units be extended to 9-car 801/2 electric units in the fullness of time ? As most 801/1 appear to work in multiple (2 x 5-car), then extension to 9-car would be equivalent to adding an additional 6 electric units for LNER services. Meaning a further order of 4 x 9-car electric units would be sufficient to replace the remaining old stock in entirety.

What was the reason for ordering 5-car electric units in the first place ?
I can understand the benefit for some bi-mode units to be 5-car length given there are some LNER destinations away from the primary electrified ECML. But I can't think of any benefit of 5-car electric units on the core trunk routes.

For one remember that the IET production line is full for a fair while yet, but probably more significantly any change to the IEP contract is likely to be expensive (where will Agility Trains keep the stock when its in their depots, etc.).

The reason was for new services: remember that there's enough 9-car units to replace all the existing 91+Mk4 and HST sets. The 5-cars are purely expansion, and in part to serve routes where there isn't the demand for a 9-car service.

 

[ainsworth74]

The reason was for new services: remember that there's enough 9-car units to replace all the existing 91+Mk4 and HST sets. The 5-cars are purely expansion, and in part to serve routes where there isn't the demand for a 9-car service.

Yes I think that people sometimes loose sight of that fact and in particular that there were only a handful of the thirty 9-car 801s in service before the move to emergency timetables in March. I'm not sure if LNER have been able to continue commissioning 9-car 801 sets but before we all run out and demand that 5-car sets be extended to 9-car (or more) sets it's worth recalling that this is the fleet of Azumas that LNER will end up with:

13x 9-car 800
10x 5-car 800
30x 9-car 801
12x 5-car 801

So there's a total of forty-three full length sets in LNERs fleet which I think it's pretty much one for one compared to the fleet of HSTs and 91+Mk4s that they used to have. With the twenty-two 5-car units therefore being extras. This isn't the same situation as GWR where there are a lot more 5-car sets which gives rise to legitimate questions about whether the correct proportion of train lengths were ordered by the DfT. LNER, thankfully as a regular user(!), doesn't have that issue as their core fleet is going to remain 9-car (once they're all in service).

 

[Energy]

Yes I think that people sometimes loose sight of that fact and in particular that there were only a handful of the thirty 9-car 801s in service before the move to emergency timetables in March. I'm not sure if LNER have been able to continue commissioning 9-car 801 sets but before we all run out and demand that 5-car sets be extended to 9-car (or more) sets it's worth recalling that this is the fleet of Azumas that LNER will end up with:

13x 9-car 800
10x 5-car 800
30x 9-car 801
12x 5-car 801

So there's a total of forty-three full length sets in LNERs fleet which I think it's pretty much one for one compared to the fleet of HSTs and 91+Mk4s that they used to have. With the twenty-two 5-car units therefore being extras. This isn't the same situation as GWR where there are a lot more 5-car sets which gives rise to legitimate questions about whether the correct proportion of train lengths were ordered by the DfT. LNER, thankfully as a regular user(!), doesn't have that issue as their core fleet is going to remain 9-car (once they're all in service).

There were 31 91/mk4s and 14 HSTs, the order is pretty close with only being 1 short which is fine as less units will be out of service with the increased reliability of them. And on slightly off topic GWR's 9 car sets were originally meant to be electric only with the presumably bimode 5 car units splitting of where electrification was originally going to end.

 

[ainsworth74]

There were 31 91/mk4s and 14 HSTs, the order is pretty close with only being 1 short which is fine as less units will be out of service with the increased reliability of them.

In theory at least! But for the time being at least the reliability of the Azumas leaves a lot to be desired...

 

[Energy]

In theory at least! But for the time being at least the reliability of the Azumas leaves a lot to be desired...

What are the reliability figures compared to the 91/mk4s and HSTs?

 

[MML]

If LNER will have an expanded fleet of Azuma compared to Class 91 and HST as suggested, then I wonder why a fleet of 10 x Class 91 and Mark 4 are going to be retained until 2023. And the comment in the attached article that they are at least 6 sets short of what will be required.

LNER to keep Class 91s until 2023

Class 91s to remain as LNER hunts for new trains

www.railmagazine.com

 

[samuelmorris]

What are the reliability figures compared to the 91/mk4s and HSTs?

Latest MTIN figures from Modern Railways:

https://i.imgur.com/Pj4xd9A.png

 

[Energy]

Latest MTIN figures from Modern Railways:

https://i.imgur.com/Pj4xd9A.png

Thanks, the Azuma's reliability isn't too consistent

 

[hexagon789]

What gets me is that there are fewer seats on a 10-car (2x5) set than a nine-car set. You think you're getting more but you're actually getting less.

2 seats less in Standard and 5 less in First; hardly a mammoth difference

 

[samuelmorris]

Bear in mind the legacy fleet data is taken from an annual average rather than recorded every month, since MR don't publish monthly data for every fleet. A large degree of variability is to be expected.

 

[43096]

There were 31 91/mk4s and 14 HSTs, the order is pretty close with only being 1 short which is fine as less units will be out of service with the increased reliability of them. And on slightly off topic GWR's 9 car sets were originally meant to be electric only with the presumably bimode 5 car units splitting of where electrification was originally going to end.

It was 30 Mark 4 sets (one lost at Great Heck) and 15 HSTs, of which 26 Mk4 and 14 HST sets were diagrammed from memory.

 

[43096]

What are the reliability figures compared to the 91/mk4s and HSTs?

You need availability (sets available for service) as well as reliability, really. The evidence suggests Hitachi are struggling with availability.

 

[ainsworth74]

If LNER will have an expanded fleet of Azuma compared to Class 91 and HST as suggested, then I wonder why a fleet of 10 x Class 91 and Mark 4 are going to be retained until 2023. And the comment in the attached article that they are at least 6 sets short of what will be required.

If we scroll back to the original VTEC proposed Azuma timetable there was always going to be a stud of Mk4 sets retained to run, I believe, the fast London - Edinburgh in four hours service which is on top of all the other frequency increases. That plan seemed to fall away slightly at one point and at another LNER announced their intention to procure additional units (not specified which type but everyone anticipated they'd design a tender which would only deliver one winner, Hitachi) and then this plan has come back to run some Mk4 sets into the mid-2020s.

So considering the legacy fleet was already being sweated to deliver the timetable of a few years ago (remember LNER actually suspended some services to try and deal with unreliability caused, in part, by the legacy fleet being utilised more than ever before) it's logical that to increase the service even beyond that would require additional trains. The point remains however that the base LNER fleet is going to remain a fleet of 9-car trains bolstered by the 5-car units and then also by the Mk4 sets (and maybe some new units, I'm not sure whatever happened to that tender).

 

[swt_passenger]

If LNER will have an expanded fleet of Azuma compared to Class 91 and HST as suggested, then I wonder why a fleet of 10 x Class 91 and Mark 4 are going to be retained until 2023. And the comment in the attached article that they are at least 6 sets short of what will be required.

LNER to keep Class 91s until 2023

Class 91s to remain as LNER hunts for new trains

www.railmagazine.com

Because theres a load of timetable changes yet to be achieved, such as extra Leeds, more Edinburghs, more Newcastle and new Middlesbrough? The future timetable was planned by Virgin on the basis of 6 Mk 4 sets being retained, so Rail isn’t really correct to say they are ALL covering for a shortage.

 

[YorksLad12]

2 seats less in Standard and 5 less in First; hardly a mammoth difference

Not mammoth, true. But most people would expect a set with 10 cars to have more seats than one with nine, so to find out there are actually fewer... well, I was surprised.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not mammoth, true. But most people would expect a set with 10 cars to have more seats than one with nine, so to find out there are actually fewer... well, I was surprised.

An extra kitchen, an extra buffet, two extra disabled access toilets and two extra cabs all eat up the space on a 10-car compared to a 9-car so I suppose at first glance you might expect the 10-car to seat more than the 9-car but in reality it's perhaps more surprising that it only has seven less seats!

 

[hexagon789]

Not mammoth, true. But most people would expect a set with 10 cars to have more seats than one with nine, so to find out there are actually fewer... well, I was surprised.

It's surprising how much duplicated cabs, accessible toilets, kitchens and buffets costs in seats. By way of a comparison GWR's sets have identical Std capacity for a 10-car against a 9-car and 2 extra seats in First.

 

[Gaz55]

I have noticed that one half of a 10 car can be rammed and the other half be relatively quiet, compared to a 9 car unit. Not hard and fast, you would have thought people would spread out more, especially if they don't have a reserved seat.

 

[800001]

Yes I think that people sometimes loose sight of that fact and in particular that there were only a handful of the thirty 9-car 801s in service before the move to emergency timetables in March. I'm not sure if LNER have been able to continue commissioning 9-car 801 sets but before we all run out and demand that 5-car sets be extended to 9-car (or more) sets it's worth recalling that this is the fleet of Azumas that LNER will end up with:

13x 9-car 800
10x 5-car 800
30x 9-car 801
12x 5-car 801

So there's a total of forty-three full length sets in LNERs fleet which I think it's pretty much one for one compared to the fleet of HSTs and 91+Mk4s that they used to have. With the twenty-two 5-car units therefore being extras. This isn't the same situation as GWR where there are a lot more 5-car sets which gives rise to legitimate questions about whether the correct proportion of train lengths were ordered by the DfT. LNER, thankfully as a regular user(!), doesn't have that issue as their core fleet is going to remain 9-car (once they're all in service).

Yes, they have been accepting and commissioning units during lockdown, after a brief pause, to change the way of working.

At the moment 801204 is out on commissioning runs, 801202 has just completed it.
And 801218 is due to start Fault free running.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, they have been accepting and commissioning units during lockdown, after a brief pause, to change the way of working.

At the moment 801204 is out on commissioning runs, 801202 has just completed it.
And 801218 is due to start Fault free running.

Oh that is a bit of good news. I suppose they're going to be after every unit they can get their hands on if the availability is as poor as I've heard rumours of it being!

 

[800001]

Oh that is a bit of good news. I suppose they're going to be after every unit they can get their hands on if the availability is as poor as I've heard rumours of it being!

Reliability is actually very good, the issues are more with the way the exams were scheduled by Hitachi, which resulted in large amounts of units been stopped for exams at same time, rather than spreading out.

Lner now have input and are working very closely with Hitachi to change the exam scheduling.

It's been trialled on the 801/2s and if a success (which it seems to be) then they will roll out the change to the rest of fleet.

Obviously less units required at present time, so will be interesting to watch when more units are required from 6th July.