LNER Livery

[tbtc]

Any blue is fine by me (as long as it doesn't look too "Thameslink"), as is green... Note that of the actual LNER (and not BR) liveries shown in that image, you have silver, apple green, garter blue and wartime black (with slight BR modificiation). Red, however, is only being used because it's Virgin's colour and is therefore less effort to replace completely. It's not historically associatied with the ECML to any great extent (although there is a bit of a connection with the LNER's ex-GCR division) and dosn't do much to differentiate it from other routes. People will be confusing it with Virgin for quite a long time, I suspect.

Maybe if Virgin lose the WCML and it goes to an operator that doesn't use red...

Most passengers don't give a stuff which colour was "historically associatied with the ECML to any great extent".

Red has been used for the past few years, it's probably the colour that most actual passengers associate with the ECML. If not that then probably the dark blue GNER scheme (you know, the one with the red stripe and the red doors).

Essentially, LNER used lots of colours on the ECML (as did BR, with their green, blue, silver etc), but you don't like red because.... something something Virgin something?

Plus, you are complaining about GWR being too similar to the SWR colours, but feel that red doesn't differentiate the ECML (even though no other route has predominantly red trains on it)?

To today's passengers, red is colour of the trains to/from London on the East Coast mainline. Very few of them will know or care about apple green or garter blue. LNER have decided (for the time being) that they're going to stick with red. Who knows what might happen in the future.

Things. Change.

Agreed.

Shall we start fitting fake chimnies onto the Azume roofs since they are what passengers of a certain vintage historically associate with expresses on the ECML?

 

[mallard]

Most passengers don't give a stuff which colour was "historically associatied with the ECML to any great extent".

Well, then we better tell Southern to change their name and livery immediately; otherwise someone might confuse them with a heritage railway! Having a historical connection doesn't make a brand/colour scheme isn't "bad" or "old fashioned" or whatever you're claiming. Nor does it make it inherently good. Having an indistinct and bland brand identity is bad. Since they're taking the new name from the route's "heritage", it surely makes sense to do so for other elements of the brand.

Essentially, LNER used lots of colours on the ECML (as did BR, with their green, blue, silver etc), but you don't like red because.... something something Virgin something?

Not specifically because "Virgin something", but because it's too similar to another, now unrelated, operator. I'm not keen on the fact that Southern and GWR's colours are fairly similar, but at least they're not running services to the same destination from the same stations where getting on the wrong one could result in several hundred pounds of financial penalty (yes, I know that was a problem already, as if that excuses the opportunity to fix it...).

Plus, you are complaining about GWR being too similar to the SWR colours

What? No, I'm doing the exact opposite; pointing out that they're totally different, despite not being totally unrelated! Unlike, for example, Virgin Trains (West Coast, especially, the new "white" livery) and the LNER livery (both the current and "Azuma" versions). Thus, there's little scope for confusion between GWR and SWR at shared stations (e.g. Exeter, Reading), but plenty at VT/LNER stations (e.g. Edinburgh, Haymarket, Glasgow Central). There's also no clear differentiation of the branding of the old vs. new operator, so many who don't follow railway news won't notice that it is a new operator. You only had to have a quick look at the Twitter feeds to see the widespread confusion that having two different "Virgin Trains" companies caused.

It's been annouced that the DfT considers the LNER brand, obviously including the red colour scheme inherited from Virgin, to be the "long term" brand for ECML services. It's a real missed opportunity and, by taking the name and applying it to other elements from an unrelated company for the sole reason of saving a little bit of cash, shows a real disrespect for history.

If you want to use a "heritage" name, show some respect for what that name means. If you want to keep the Virgin colour scheme to save costs, use a different name (what was wrong with the old "EAST COAST" name that DOR used anyway?).

 

[transmanche]

Well, then we better tell Southern to change their name and livery immediately; otherwise someone might confuse them with a heritage railway!

Other than "it's got a bit of green in it", the modern Southern livery looks nothing like the old Southern Railway's livery!


377467, Gatwick, March 18th 2009 by Matt Taylor, on Flickr 4SUB 20080926 York by steam60163, on Flickr

 

[transmanche]

It's been annouced that the DfT considers the LNER brand, obviously including the red colour scheme inherited from Virgin, to be the "long term" brand for ECML services.

You are confusing 'brand name' with 'colour palette'. The two are not the same.

The DfT consider the LNER brand name to be the long-term brand name for ECML InterCity services to/from London: yes, that is true. But I have no idea why you assume that means they are restricted to using the colour red in the long-term. It's not 'obvious' at all...

 

[mallard]

Other than "it's got a bit of green in it", the modern Southern livery looks nothing like the old Southern Railway's livery!


377467, Gatwick, March 18th 2009 by Matt Taylor, on Flickr 4SUB 20080926 York by steam60163, on Flickr

But it's clearly inspired by it. I'm not asking for anything to be identical...

Have you seen Southern's logo? (Admittedly they tweaked it a bit and dropped the yellow when they became GTR.)

Tell me that's not based on the logotype as applied to their namesake's steam locomotives (combined with a shape based on the old BR "totem" station signs):

 

[transmanche]

But it's clearly inspired by it.

As I said, it's got a bit of green in it. A small amount. That's a different shade. So?

 

[A0]

Because it's a modernish working railway not a heritage line for trainspotters. Things have moved on a touch since 1948.....

Welcome to the world of 'muddythefish' - the poster who was arguing the MML was better 40 years ago with slow, infrequent and unreliable services but (s)he preferred them because they were 10 coach peak services replete with a tablecloth in the buffet car.

Those of us on the other hand that actually use them for the purpose the railways exist for i.e. to get from one place to another, much prefer the regular, faster, comfortable air-con'd Meridians.

I'm surprised ol' muddy hasn't demanded the return of BR blue and grey - which looked drab on pretty much everything - be applied to the 91 and Mk4s and the Azumas.

 

[A0]

Why? Today's LNER is not a heritage railway. And even if the original LNER was still in operation, it's really unlikely they'd still be using the same colour scheme(s) that they used for 25 years almost a century ago.

What next...?

Source

Is it wrong to like this? I reckon the NYMR should paint one up in those colours, if only to get some of the posters around here frothing with synthetic rage......

 

[mallard]

As I said, it's got a bit of green in it. A small amount. That's a different shade. So?

The typeface is near identical! That's manifestly not a co-incidence. You're the one trying to claim that taking inspiration from history is "bad" and makes it look like a "heritage railway". Should Southen be rebranded for that reason (there are other good reasons to drop the brand, due to the poor performance in recent years)? Perhaps they should use their red "express" livery everywhere, to rid the world of all that nasty heritage you seem to dislike so much... Maybe we should paint all our trains red like the Germans do if that's such a good colour?

Admittedly, "Southern" is a very geographic name and could be used with any colour scheme for almost any purpose (and has been, e.g. the American "Southern Railway", which co-incidentally also used a similar green colour scheme with yellow text, Southen Airways, Southern Television, etc.), but "London and North Eastern Railway" has only ever been used by once company and has a very specific heritage. One that's disrespected by simply using it as a generified version of Virgin Trains. How about we apply the new logo and Virgin livery to all surviving LNER steam locomotives and coaching stock? Although I assume you'd rather see them scrapped since you hate heritage so much.

You are confusing 'brand name' with 'colour palette'. The two are not the same.

The DfT annoucement doesn't say "brand name". It said:

"So on that same day we will start with the launch of the new, long-term brand for the East Coast Mainline through the recreation of one of Britain’s iconic rail brands, the London North Eastern Railway (LNER)."

To me, "recreating" a brand means more than just coming up with a new logo to slap on an old colour scheme, but that's what they've done. It says "long-term brand". A brand is more than just a name, it includes elements such as the colour scheme.

 

[transmanche]

The typeface is near identical!

I haven't made any comment about the typeface.

You're the one trying to claim that taking inspiration from history is "bad" and makes it look like a "heritage railway".

You are just making stuff up! I said the ECML is not a heritage railway and suggested there is no need to copy a livery that was used on locomotives for a short period in the last century when (and this is the important bit that you seem to miss) the brand people seem to think there is value in sticking with red for the time being. Or better still, just re-read my previous posts.

One that's disrespected by simply using it as a generified version of Virgin Trains.

'Disrespected'? It's really time to climb off your tall equine.

The DfT annoucement doesn't say "brand name". It said:

 

[mallard]

I haven't made any comment about the typeface.

No, you said that the only similarity between the brands was "a bit of green" (and tried to imply that they're completely dissimilar shades of green due to their appearance in two photos taken in very different lighting conditions). Completely ignoring the logo...

You are just making stuff up! I said the ECML is not a heritage railway and suggested there is no need to copy a livery that was used on locomotives for a short period in the last century when (and this is the important bit that you seem to miss) the brand people seem to think there is value in sticking with red for the time being.

Who are these "people" who seem to think there is value in permanently (lets be real here, it's going to be red for at least the next 20 years, your idea that it's "temporary" has no basis in reality) in sticking with read for the sake of the price of a bit of paint/vinyl? Anybody apart from bean counters at the DfT?

The silver/grey livery used by NX and DOR (which, by pure co-incidence, is an "LNER colour") lasted much longer than Virgin's red. Why is the last 3 years of red somehow concrete proof that it's the best identity that the line's ever had, yet the 7 years of NX/DOR isn't? Or maybe the previous 10 years of GNER (a brand that was based entirely around invoking the image of a historic railway company) and their dark blue?

There's no "need" to copy a name that was used on locomotives for a short period in the last century when either, but they are. I've even said that'd I'd have no problem with slapping the previous "EAST COAST" name over Virgin red. Why crib a name from history and forget everything else? It's in a similar vein (although not nearly as offensive; I suspect you'll ignore this bit when quoting me...) as the far-east companies/individuals that use imagery from 1933-1945 Germany without understanding its origin (and that's a complete subversion of Goodwin's Law).

 

[transmanche]

No, you said that the only similarity between the brands was "a bit of green" (and tried to imply that they're completely dissimilar shades of green due to their appearance in two photos taken in very different lighting conditions).

Well, they are 'completely dissimilar shades of green'. The only part of the livery which is remotely like the old Southern Railway's green is the dark green used on the doors.

(lets be real here, it's going to be red for at least the next 20 years, your idea that it's "temporary" has no basis in reality)

I can't quite understand why you think the livery is going to stay the same forever.

By my reckoning, Virgin Trains (West Coast) have had three distinctly different liveries during their 21 years.

WAGN had three different logos and at least two completely different liveries in its ten years.

Why is the last 3 years of red somehow concrete proof that it's the best identity that the line's ever had,

Nobody, literally nobody has said that. But it's probably the best colour to be using right here and right now.

Things. Change.

 

[mallard]

Well, they are 'completely dissimilar shades of green'. The only part of the livery which is remotely like the old Southern Railway's green is the dark green used on the doors.

The "major" shade of green on the doors and window surrounds is, as best as can be done with modern pigments, a very close match with Southern "malachite" green (which wasn't perfectly consistent throughout the Southern Railway's use of it either).

Of course they've "modernised" the livery, adding a "minor" shade of green and some white and, of couse, a proper "respectful" LNER brand would do similar. I quite like the blue version from "TomTheDoodler" on Twitter, although I'm not saying it's perfect. Even a predominently white livery with green/blue highlights would work well (in another thread, I suggested that green could be used to highlight the all-electric Cl801's "eco-friendly" status).

By my reckoning, Virgin Trains (West Coast) have had three distinctly different liveries during their 21 years.

Red and black/dark grey (for "legacy" trains), red and silver (for Voyagers and Pendolinos) and "mostly white because the trains need repainting and the DfT won't let use use red this close to the end of the franchise, but we'll stick some red stickers on it anyway" (corporate strop)... There are a few variations depending on whether they've bothered with door stripes and the below-the-windows decals on that particular unit/carriage. Sure, "distinctly different"... All red.

WAGN had three different logos and at least two completely different liveries in its ten years.

As far as I can tell, WAGN had a few "experimental" mostly-white liveries, the very Stagecoach-esque "refurbished trains" livery (with purple as the main "accent") and a later all-purple livery. The use of purple was fairly consistent.

Of course, neither VTWC or WAGN had their branding dictated by the DfT, so had much more freedom to change things than the "caretaker" or next ECML franchise does/will.

The "new" Azuma livery looks like a rehash of the Virgin "legacy" livery. Very uncreative, very Virgin-esque and very much not what I'd imagine as a "recreation" of the LNER brand that the DfT pretends they're doing.

Nobody, literally nobody has said that. But it's probably the best colour to be using right here and right now.

Yes, there's little point in repainting the Cl91s, Cl43s, Mk3s and Mk4s. Keeping some of the red on those for a couple of years is pragmatic (although removing the vinyls and going with mostly white with red doors is also an option). Painting the new trains that will (probably) never be operated by Virgin Trains into what is very obviously a Virgin Trains livery isn't.

 

[transmanche]

The "major" shade of green on the doors and window surrounds

The 455s have green window surrounds, but the Electostars and Turbostars (which make up the bulk of the fleet) do not.

The 313s have a different livery: dark green and grey around the windows, but use the pale green shade for the doors.

Of course they've "modernised" the livery, adding a "minor" shade of green and some white

'Some' white? The majority of the livery is white. The dark green is very much the minority colour. Look again.


377467, Gatwick, March 18th 2009 by Matt Taylor, on Flickr

Red and black/dark grey (for "legacy" trains), red and silver (for Voyagers and Pendolinos) and "mostly white because the trains need repainting and the DfT won't let use use red this close to the end of the franchise, but we'll stick some red stickers on it anyway"

So you agree. Three different liveries.

Sure, "distinctly different"... All red.

Virgin Trains 87010 by Mr Graham, on Flickr Virgin Trains 390049 by Sam Pedley, on Flickr

You don't think those two liveries are 'distinctly different'? O... K...

As far as I can tell, WAGN had a few "experimental" mostly-white liveries, the very Stagecoach-esque "refurbished trains" livery (with purple as the main "accent") and a later all-purple livery. The use of purple was fairly consistent.

No purple here:


317663 A Liverpool Street [Public domain], by Peter Skuce, from Wikimedia Commons

Plenty of purple here:

Same brand: WAGN. But very different colours.

Of course, neither VTWC or WAGN had their branding dictated by the DfT, so had much more freedom to change things than the "caretaker" or next ECML franchise does/will.

What have the DfT 'dictated' other than the name?

 

[43096]

Because what better way to run a modern railway than to pretend it's the 1930s...

The East Coast Mainline is not a heritage railway.

But the use of the LNER name is clearly an attempt to use the past. All about style over substance - pretty pathetic when you have to use some supposed by-gone "golden age" to prop up your service/brand. See also GWR.

 

[gazthomas]

I must admit though, why not keep consistent geographical brands, as per ScotRail and to a point, GWR and now LNER and just have an "operated by" moniker?

 

[jon0844]

All staff with new uniforms, which must have had a pretty high cost.

I did notice they've missed something though...


And if they keep putting new route maps over old ones, soon there won't be any room left in the vestibules!

 

[muddythefish]

"Teak" is obviously taking it a bit far, but some form of blue would certainly be more appropriate (and more attractive IMHO) for the route. If GWR can paint their trains with a colour scheme based on the locomotive green of their namesake (which, ironically, makes them look more like the trains of their main rival, the Southern Railway), surely it can't be beyond the wit of man to come up with an attractive use of something approaching "garter blue" for the ECML.

If teak coaches and blue locos are not seen as realistic, the old (real) LNER used green and cream on their "tourist" stock - a pleasing combination that would not look out of place today.

And of course the famous LNER Silver Jubilee liner train was all silver.

Anything but the horrendous garish red as proposed by the fake new LNER.

 

[Rail Blues]

But the use of the LNER name is clearly an attempt to use the past. All about style over substance - pretty pathetic when you have to use some supposed by-gone "golden age" to prop up your service/brand. See also GWR.

Yes, but Gwr use a different shade of green to the historic company of the same name, they also haven't painted their Mk3s in chocolate and cream that it's namesake did. Clearly they've used the name and a logo that has design elements from the original. Therefore they've introduced elements that evoke a supposed golden age of rail travel, they've not slavishly copied a long defunct livery.

 

[156443]

One of the Azumas is currently on display outside of the Discovery Museum in Newcastle with this livery. I’m guessing this is just a temporary livery possibly.

 

[mde]

View attachment 48887 One of the Azumas is currently on display outside of the Discovery Museum in Newcastle with this livery. I’m guessing this is just a temporary livery possibly.

This one has appeared a few times in the thread early on - it's a promotional livery (at least in part) for the Great Exhibition of the North. You can see a slightly better version in this post where the GEtN branding is on the rear door.

There's also a 91 floating around with that part of the branding which was launched by the then VTEC in March (picture shows a VTEC liveried class 91, number 91106, in the familiar red 'Virgin' livery with the multicoloured pattern/text branding for the Great Exhibition of the North).

 

[Hadders]

Just passed Bounds Green on a Shambleslink service. One of the coaches in an LNER liveried rake has been covered in graffiti.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Just passed Bounds Green on a Shambleslink service. One of the coaches in an LNER liveried rake has been covered in graffiti.

Branson taking it all a bit personally?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The physicist in me suspects that's due to the wavelengths (and thus relavtive energy levels) of the colours... If we pretend that the paint/ink/dye is a perfect reflector of a particular wavelength of red light and a perfect absorber of all other wavelengths, then it's reflecting only the lowest energy light (red being at the low end of the spectrum) and absorbing the rest. For blue, the situation is the opposite, it's reflecting the highest energy light (blue/violet being at the high end of the spectrum) and absorbing the rest. Energy that's absorbed must go somewhere (thermodynamics), most is converted to heat, but some of that energy will be absorbed by breaking down the paint/ink/dye.

However, the difference in energy isn't that great. Red light is around half as energetic as blue, so there's probably other effects involved, such as the relative stability of the chemical compounds used to give the paint/dye/ink its colour.

it was particularly noticable in the mid to late 90s when paints started removing all the 'nasty' for the environment but good for colourfatness and retaining a finish chemicals ... faded and 'chalky' solid red cars only a few years old were really common

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Yes, it is.

Do you think that if the original LNER had continued in existence, it would still be using teak-effect brown and blue?

I doubt it very much; but i suspect that the base colours would be green and silver/ grey

 

[mde]

it was particularly noticable in the mid to late 90s when paints started removing all the 'nasty' for the environment but good for colourfatness and retaining a finish chemicals … faded and 'chalky' solid red cars only a few years old were really common

Royal Mail vans are one of the worst for it - the lightfastness of that shade of red they use is rather poor.

 

[xotGD]

I noticed an HST power car with LNER branding this morning 43310, iirc.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I noticed an HST power car with LNER branding this morning 43310, iirc.

A quick flickr search by date uploaded shows your correct.

 

[Harbornite]

The typeface is near identical! That's manifestly not a co-incidence. You're the one trying to claim that taking inspiration from history is "bad" and makes it look like a "heritage railway". Should Southen be rebranded for that reason (there are other good reasons to drop the brand, due to the poor performance in recent years)? Perhaps they should use their red "express" livery everywhere, to rid the world of all that nasty heritage you seem to dislike so much... Maybe we should paint all our trains red like the Germans do if that's such a good colour?

Admittedly, "Southern" is a very geographic name and could be used with any colour scheme for almost any purpose (and has been, e.g. the American "Southern Railway", which co-incidentally also used a similar green colour scheme with yellow text, Southen Airways, Southern Television, etc.), but "London and North Eastern Railway" has only ever been used by once company and has a very specific heritage. One that's disrespected by simply using it as a generified version of Virgin Trains. How about we apply the new logo and Virgin livery to all surviving LNER steam locomotives and coaching stock? Although I assume you'd rather see them scrapped since you hate heritage so much.

wibble

 

[Roger100]

A quick flickr search by date uploaded shows your correct.

Yes, 43310 was running on the 27th with 43320, both LNER branded.