LNER proposal to withdraw Stirling and Glasgow Central direct services: what do you think should happen?

[Peter0124]

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On 22 January LNER will begin an 8-week consultation to remove two direct services to and from Glasgow Central and Stirling from the December 2024 timetable. The proposed changes will enable LNER to deliver a more efficient and reliable timetable of services for our customers now and into the future. These stations are served by other train operators and the rail industry will work together to ensure customers continue to be well served by rail links. These services will still operate between Edinburgh and London King's Cross.

LNER would still call at Stirling as part of it's daily service to and from Inverness.

Stirling will still be served by the Chieftain. Was the 1E03 05:34 morning departure from Stirling popular between there and Edinburgh?

Realtime Trains | 2P02 0514 Dunblane to Edinburgh | 21/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 2P02 0514 departure from Dunblane to Edinburgh on 21/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If 1E03 was to go, would this service have a much shorter layover at Stirling? It's currently 17 minutes.

 

[Class 170101]

Stirling will still be served by the Chieftain. Was the 1E03 05:34 morning departure from Stirling popular between there and Edinburgh?

Realtime Trains | 2P02 0514 Dunblane to Edinburgh | 21/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 2P02 0514 departure from Dunblane to Edinburgh on 21/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

If 1E03 was to go, would this service have a much shorter layover at Stirling? It's currently 17 minutes.

I reckon it would start later from Dunblane and run as booked from Stirling.

These through services are nowhere near as popular as the Aberdeen and Inverness services. This is probably due to their weird positioning in the timetable and only being once a day. I don't think it's a big deal to see them go personally, ScotRail seem to do just fine for connections.

In terms of the Stirling service its too early, it would be better if a later service eg the 09:3o from Edinburgh started back instead of the 05:34 as it is now.

For Glasgow its a bit dishonest to say that Cross Country run seven trains a day from Glasgow currently its one each way. Additionally its not fo London journeys but for intermediate journeys along the East Coast Main Line.

 

[gingerheid]

These through services are nowhere near as popular as the Aberdeen and Inverness services. This is probably due to their weird positioning in the timetable and only being once a day. I don't think it's a big deal to see them go personally, ScotRail seem to do just fine for connections.

If you're going from an ECLM station to Glasgow Central then that's true; connections to Glasgow as a whole are fine and adding a connection doesn't make much difference.

However if you're going from somewhere that's already a connection or two away from the ECML to somewhere that's a connection away from Glasgow Central then it really does make a huge difference. Potentially a kinda "maybe flying isn't so awful" type of difference.

 

[swt_passenger]

If you're going from an ECLM station to Glasgow Central then that's true; connections to Glasgow as a whole are fine and adding a connection doesn't make much difference.

However if you're going from somewhere that's already a connection or two away from the ECML to somewhere that's a connection away from Glasgow Central then it really does make a huge difference. Potentially a kinda "maybe flying isn't so awful" type of difference.

If you‘re connecting into the southbound departure from Glasgow, then presumably for any significant distance you’d be doing that the night before?

 

[hux385]

If you‘re connecting into the southbound departure from Glasgow, then presumably for any significant distance you’d be doing that the night before?

I agree. I would love to see more direct Glasgow-ECML trains, but running 1x LNER per day each way at unpopular times probably isn't the best way to do it. These particular trains won't be a big loss, it might have been a different story if these trains left Glasgow around 1000 or so.

 

[Peter0124]

Ironically, LNER run a daily ECS between Edinburgh and Glasgow. I'd imagine that'll go too, or the diagram redirected to Carlisle for example.

 

[Chester1]

LNER will have run the numbers and revenue from a later service to London will be predicted to be higher.

Don't Scotrail have spare mini HSTs? Maybe they could use the path between Stirling and Edinburgh.

 

[Tayway]

The Glasgow trip is really just a relic of when WCML London services were only two-hourly – there isn't any real need for it given the time penalty. However given Cross Country's Glasgow offering is equally sparse since COVID, it would be good to use this as an opportunity to look again at restoring a regular link to Yorkshire and North East England.

Re-extending the Cross Country is probably the easiest option, although I wonder whether curtailing the Edinburgh-Plymouth at York and having TPE take it's path on the ECML and run a Nottingham-Glasgow service using 802s would make more sense (so that Voyagers can be focused on Cross Country's core routes).

As for Stirling, the 05:30 service is obviously of limited use, but the 15:00 off King's Cross likely wouldn't be heading down south again and so provides a useful connection – if the southbound could be retime then that would be far preferable to just saying "can't be bothered" as LNER seem to be doing.

 

[Darandio]

Ironically, LNER run a daily ECS between Edinburgh and Glasgow. I'd imagine that'll go too, or the diagram redirected to Carlisle for example.

Well you'd think so given it won't be needed! Why would it redirected to Carlisle though?

I'll be honest, I always thought a unit stabled at Polmadie instead. Been a while since I looked closely.

 

[Peter0124]

Well you'd think so given it won't be needed! Why would it redirected to Carlisle though?

I'll be honest, I always thought a unit stabled at Polmadie instead. Been a while since I looked closely.

It got redirected to Carlisle a few times a few months ago on an STP basis. Probably to cover route knowledge of the diversionary when ECML is closed. It's a route learner from Glasgow also. 5S04 and 3E21. Sits in Glasgow P1 around 1pm.

 

[Darandio]

It got redirected to Carlisle a few times a few months ago on an STP basis. Probably to cover route knowledge of the diversionary when ECML is closed. It's a route learner from Glasgow also.

Ahh, understood.

 

[Bishopstone]

Do LNER serve First Class complimentaries from Stirling on the early morning train? If so, I wonder whether it has a few regulars in (eg) the Edinburgh finance sector, who need early starts and will mourn its loss.

 

[snookertam]

LNER will have run the numbers and revenue from a later service to London will be predicted to be higher. Don't Scotrail have spare mini HSTs? Maybe they could use the path between Stirling and Edinburgh.

Even if ScotRail had any spares, they’d be unlikely to utilise one for a Stirling to Edinburgh working. Outside of Inverness services this is strictly 385 country.

As was implied by a previous post, 1E03 basically is shadowed by a Dunblane to Edinburgh service. Anyone travelling to Edinburgh or points beyond at that time in the morning would comfortably be accommodated on this.

Likewise the practice of running the through KGX to Glasgow Central service seems a relic, but the danger here is the affect on NE England to Glasgow traffic, and Edinburgh to Motherwell direct traffic. unless Cross Country reinstate their former offering, I’d predict they might not be allowed to drop that one.

 

[gaillark]

This proposal is nothing new - EastCoast operators have have been trying for decades to offload anything north of Edinburgh.
Elaine Holt when MD of East Coast trains wanted nothing north of Edinburgh.
The case was that there would be more London to Edinburgh trains (the core market) however the Scottish Government objected to the loss of through trains especially Aberdeen and Inverness. Glasgow was retained at one train a day. The Stirling service is a fairly new creation (in history terms). Sunderland is also useless service at 2000 off the Cross.

Personally speaking the Stirling service would be no great loss but as for the Glasgow service it really needs two trains a day (one in the morning and one in the afternoon from both London and Glasgow) that would provide greater contectivity to places like Peterborough and East Anglia.

I guess also the quality of the Hitachi trains regularly needing 'more trains requiring repair than usual' it would given them extra time.

There is also going to be a fares increase for the public as its going to be two operators (or two separate tickets) for those on advances and that is what LNER wants.

 

[hux385]

In the last couple of timetables, ScotRail have gradually increased their services via Carstairs and Motherwell. I think the best thing would be for ScotRail to run some additional early morning/later evening services on this route. A single 3-car 385 would probably be enough?

 

[brad465]

This proposal is nothing new - EastCoast operators have have been trying for decades to offload anything north of Edinburgh.
Elaine Holt when MD of East Coast trains wanted nothing north of Edinburgh.
The case was that there would be more London to Edinburgh trains (the core market) however the Scottish Government objected to the loss of through trains especially Aberdeen and Inverness. Glasgow was retained at one train a day. The Stirling service is a fairly new creation (in history terms). Sunderland is also useless service at 2000 off the Cross.

Are the Aberdeen and Inverness services not very profitable then? Aberdeen services, especially the 10:00 from KGX, don't just serve the key destinations on the Scottish East Coast, but also the ferry to Shetland (although I don't know how popular that last bit is and the fact I once sat next on that service with a few passengers doing that probably isn't a reliable measure). The Chieftain from experience seems popular, but I wonder if having only 1 a day each way means more hassle relative to passenger numbers?

 

[swt_passenger]

This proposal is nothing new - EastCoast operators have have been trying for decades to offload anything north of Edinburgh.
Elaine Holt when MD of East Coast trains wanted nothing north of Edinburgh.

About 13 years ago we had a thread about this. It was then quite clearly a Transport Scotland proposal to withdraw ECML services north of Edinburgh. It was a serious consultation proposal for 2014, and I think turning it into a TOC proposal, (or Elaine Holt’s personal idea), is rewriting history:

Transport Scotland Rail 2014 consultation

http://mobile.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/reports/j203179/j203179.pdf The two biggest, and utterly ludicrous, points are: > Proposal to cut all cross-border services north of Edinburgh, forcing passengers onto ScotRail > Proposal to cut at least one of the Caley Sleeper routes...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Avenger20]

In the last couple of timetables, ScotRail have gradually increased their services via Carstairs and Motherwell. I think the best thing would be for ScotRail to run some additional early morning/later evening services on this route. A single 3-car 385 would probably be enough?

Thing is, the Scotrail service hasn't been increased at all - it's simply been returned to pre-covid levels.

 

[A S Leib]

Makes sense for LNER to look at saving costs and cutting back some of the token daily services to focus more on their core market.

Aren't they still trying to introduce a daily Cleethorpes service within the next year or two, as well as having recently added Middlesbrough?

 

[John R]

Scotrail run perfectly adequate services to Stirling and Glasgow this is the sort of sensible decisions that lower the cost of running the railway.

Also gets rid of dead ECS mileage and route knowledge.

However, you’d really expect a regular fast direct service between Glasgow and Newcastle, something we had 20 years ago, and no longer do, despite having an electrified line the whole way.

 

[dk1]

However, you’d really expect a regular fast direct service between Glasgow and Newcastle, something we had 20 years ago, and no longer do, despite having an electrified line the whole way.

Extending some or all TPx services would solve that problem.

 

[Kilopylae]

Re-extending the Cross Country is probably the easiest option, although I wonder whether curtailing the Edinburgh-Plymouth at York and having TPE take it's path on the ECML and run a Nottingham-Glasgow service using 802s would make more sense (so that Voyagers can be focused on Cross Country's core routes).

If this would improve XC reliability it can only be a net good for the south west.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Extending some or all TPx services would solve that problem.

I’m not sure they have the stock for that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure they have the stock for that.

They are about to do a new order, though, so now would be the time to think about it.

I don't know how big the Glasgow-south ECML flows are, though, I suspect not that big or it wouldn't have been 1tpd.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Also gets rid of dead ECS mileage and route knowledge.

The inbound set on the Glasgow service stables at Polmadie to work the return service the following day, so very little dead running.

 

[snookertam]

About 13 years ago we had a thread about this. It was then quite clearly a Transport Scotland proposal to withdraw ECML services north of Edinburgh. It was a serious consultation proposal for 2014, and I think turning it into a TOC proposal, (or Elaine Holt’s personal idea), is rewriting history:

Transport Scotland Rail 2014 consultation

http://mobile.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/reports/j203179/j203179.pdf The two biggest, and utterly ludicrous, points are: > Proposal to cut all cross-border services north of Edinburgh, forcing passengers onto ScotRail > Proposal to cut at least one of the Caley Sleeper routes...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yes I recall th is being the case as well. It was a ludicrous and incoherent suggestion to withdraw all ECML services beyond Edinburgh, including to Inverness and Aberdeen. But that’s TS for you….

Even placing it in the context of the 2014 referendum makes no sense when you consider how most continental European rail networks operate.

 

[Kite159]

The question for both services is the percentage of Cross Edinburgh passengers there is (ie passengers from Stirling/Glasgow to Newcastle & points south) compared to the percentage who use those trains solely to reach Edinburgh in the morning (and board at Edinburgh in the evening using LNER rather than using ScotRail). I guess under ORCATS LNER will be getting hardly anything from flexible tickets between Edinburgh & Glasgow/Stirling.

Similar to some of the other token daily trains, the percentage of passengers remaining on board the Skipton train who were on the train when it arrived at Wakefield/Leeds etc

 

[Failed Unit]

The inbound set on the Glasgow service stables at Polmadie to work the return service the following day, so very little dead running.

I wonder if they are getting a nice cost saving out of that, or if there are things going on at Polmadie that prevent the current arrangement continuing in the future that could result in the need to go for ECS.

The Stirling train isn't a big surprise to be honest, a 4am start for the ECS. As others have said it was really too early Southbound.

Never used it to know what the loading were like. I know people prefer direct trains, but I suspect that a well connecting Scotrail service would be preferred by the greater number of passengers. (If the 0514 Dunblane - Edinburgh was a valid connection then more large towns would benefit)

The Glasgow service is more interesting. Not sure who was the driving force behind this, but it did free up a train to enhance the general ECML timetable. But then Cross-Country were supposed to step in with a 2 hourly service to cover the majority of the demand (Stations towards York) - If This service returns I suspect the objections will be low. I know a number of people that did use it but none of them travelling beyond York.

 

[DanNCL]

The Stirling train isn't a big surprise to be honest, a 4am start for the ECS. As others have said it was really too early Southbound.

Never used it to know what the loading were like. I know people prefer direct trains, but I suspect that a well connecting Scotrail service would be preferred by the greater number of passengers. (If the 0514 Dunblane - Edinburgh was a valid connection then more large towns would benefit)

I used it once in January 2020. The southbound service was virtually empty, the few other passengers on it were (like myself) only there for the novelty of having a 91 to Stirling.

The northbound one was better used but still not busy, I think about a quarter of the seats were occupied in my carriage.

 

[thealexweb]

LNER sounds so defeated. Should be moving the other way. Go hourly in place of XC if we care so much about going green.