LNER seat reservation system claiming to have reserved a seat when none are available

[TUC]

I tried this morning to reserve a seat on a LNER service from Grantham to Kings Cross. Although the system claimed to have allocated me a seat, and sent me an email stating 'seat reservation confirmed', on reviewing it it states xx against the carriage and seat numbers in the confirmation within the website, and says further down the email 'no reservable seats available'.

It may well be that no seats are available, but why doesn't the system simply say that when seeking to reserve a seat, rather than purporting to have reserved one, with the actual situation only stated further down the email?

 

[Royston Vasey]

The bizarre situation that they'll give you a "reservation" for a "sold out" train but wouldn't sell you a ticket for it because they've sold out of reservations.

 

[Adam Williams]

Presumably it's made a counted place reservation?

This was a bodge introduced because operators were setting the "Mandatory Reservations" flag on their timetabled service. So, now, because it's undesirable to give up on selling tickets once the physical accommodation is occupied (particularly because there is unreserved seating and people who don't turn up to their train, or who bought a flexible ticket and don't want a reservation), rather than simply removing the timetable flag, RDG have asked operators to give out an allocation of counted places once the actual seats are used up.

Some operators were already doing this (to an extent); but it's now been codified into a "code of practice" of sorts.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Sounds like a positive change. For far too long the LNER app has been listing trains as "sold out" so you cannot select them even when just wanting to buy an anytime ticket which was incredibly annoying and probably made plenty think they weren't allowed to travel on that train

 

[yorkie]

Sounds like a positive change. For far too long the LNER app has been listing trains as "sold out" so you cannot select them even when just wanting to buy an anytime ticket which was incredibly annoying and probably made plenty think they weren't allowed to travel on that train

This is not the solution, though! The solution is for LNER to stop fudging the data to mark the trains as 'reservations compulsory'.

However, my understanding is that the DfT and LNER are in cahoots with each other over this anti-passenger policy, and therefore LNER are going to continue to behave this way, as no-one can stop them.

 

[800001]

Sounds like a positive change. For far too long the LNER app has been listing trains as "sold out" so you cannot select them even when just wanting to buy an anytime ticket which was incredibly annoying and probably made plenty think they weren't allowed to travel on that train

This isn’t new! They have been doing this for several years.

This is when you just make a seat reservation, not when you attempt to purchase a ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just counted places so they "oversell" the train in a controlled way. You can end up with these if you do a reservation or buy a ticket. Unfortunately the system isn't clever enough to know that issuing these when asking for a reservation is pointless and confusing.

They aren't the only TOC who do this (if you use the GWR site to get a reservation after buying a ticket).

 

[TUC]

I understand the counted places arrangements when it comes to buying tickets. It's hard to see the purpose or benefit of it for passengers already with a ticket who are simply seeking to make a sest reservation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understand the counted places arrangements when it comes to buying tickets. It's hard to see the purpose or benefit of it for passengers already with a ticket who are simply seeking to make a sest reservation.

There is no benefit, apart from placating people who think reservations are actually compulsory (and can you blame them given that the railway likes to fine people for all manner of other minor infractions?)

However I don't think it's for that reason, it's just that the software isn't clever enough to tell and just say "no reservations left, just board and look for a seat in the unreserved coach".

I believe some changes have been made (or are being) to stop issuing these coupons for ToD-fulfilled bookings, though, as they're rather a waste of cardboard.

 

[800001]

There is no benefit, apart from placating people who think reservations are actually compulsory (and can you blame them given that the railway likes to fine people for all manner of other minor infractions?)

However I don't think it's for that reason, it's just that the software isn't clever enough to tell and just say "no reservations left, just board and look for a seat in the unreserved coach".

I believe some changes have been made (or are being) to stop issuing these coupons for ToD-fulfilled bookings, though, as they're rather a waste of cardboard.

The daft thing is when this system was first implemented, even just for a seat reservation it did used to say ‘unavailable’ at the page where you select time of train and class of travel.
Then for some stupid reason it was changed to go through the whole process like the OP has done this morning.

 

[Flying Snail]

Unknowing foreign visitors are even sold these counted place reservations by ACP Rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unknowing foreign visitors are even sold these counted place reservations by ACP Rail.

I can see that putting their mind at rest - in most countries if you board a train that is shown as "reservations compulsory" you are hit with a hefty penalty if you don't have one, and that's if you get past any dateline or boarding check at all. Here it's one of the few infractions that isn't really one.

Of course we all know what the fix is...

Curiously it's not just us - Poland does a similar thing - I recall being very surprised to see an IC I thought genuinely had compulsory reservations was in fact full and standing and the guard was flogging even more tickets to people who boarded without. Only the EIP (Pendolino) carries a penalty if I recall.

 

[rg177]

Only the EIP (Pendolino) carries a penalty if I recall.

Yes and I was surprised back in 2022 when I took such a service, as quite a few passengers were in very animated conversations with the conductor who was charging them a penalty for either lacking the right supplement or reservation.

On the topic of LNER - I used to commute to/from London on a Friday, and it used to really tick me off getting into the situation as the OP describes. I'd usually buy a Super Off-Peak Return from Newcastle to West Hampstead (when LNER had done single-leg pricing to Kings Cross but hadn't done their daft 'Simpler Fares') and would usually get on whatever train back suited me. If I wanted to be sure, I'd get myself a reservation for my preferred service back to Newcastle on the day. More than once, I was given a pointless counted place.

In the end it was usually more effective to wait on the bridge and get ahead of everyone else before taking a seat in Coach C.

 

[Mainline421]

Sounds like a positive change. For far too long the LNER app has been listing trains as "sold out" so you cannot select them even when just wanting to buy an anytime ticket which was incredibly annoying and probably made plenty think they weren't allowed to travel on that train

Counted places are used since the insane situation was introduced. It's not a positive as it doesn't reserve anything, but still blocks others from purchasing tickets for the train online. Unlike most apps, the LNER app will at least tell you to buy tickets at the station if you want to travel on service without any reservations available.

I can see that putting their mind at rest - in most countries if you board a train that is shown as "reservations compulsory" you are hit with a hefty penalty if you don't have one, and that's if you get past any dateline or boarding check at all.

But they're actually being charged €6 for nothing, that's almost a scam just for the sake of "reassurance."

 

[TUC]

There is no benefit, apart from placating people who think reservations are actually compulsory (and can you blame them given that the railway likes to fine people for all manner of other minor infractions?)

However I don't think it's for that reason, it's just that the software isn't clever enough to tell and just say "no reservations left, just board and look for a seat in the unreserved coach".

I believe some changes have been made (or are being) to stop issuing these coupons for ToD-fulfilled bookings, though, as they're rather a waste of cardboard.

But this issue isn't about cardboard. It's about emails confirming what turn out to be non-existent seat reservations, with no coupons involved. It is surely possible to amend the email message that is generated, regardless of the limitations of the software which generates physical coupons?

 

[Kite159]

Yes and I was surprised back in 2022 when I took such a service, as quite a few passengers were in very animated conversations with the conductor who was charging them a penalty for either lacking the right supplement or reservation.

On the topic of LNER - I used to commute to/from London on a Friday, and it used to really tick me off getting into the situation as the OP describes. I'd usually buy a Super Off-Peak Return from Newcastle to West Hampstead (when LNER had done single-leg pricing to Kings Cross but hadn't done their daft 'Simpler Fares') and would usually get on whatever train back suited me. If I wanted to be sure, I'd get myself a reservation for my preferred service back to Newcastle on the day. More than once, I was given a pointless counted place.

In the end it was usually more effective to wait on the bridge and get ahead of everyone else before taking a seat in Coach C.

Wouldn't surprise me if LNER at some point decide to do away with the unreserved coach completely, in their drive to be an airplane on rails and hatred of flexible tickets.

But I've done similar, aimed straight for coach C when the website was giving out counted place reservations.

 

[800001]

Wouldn't surprise me if LNER at some point decide to do away with the unreserved coach completely, in their drive to be an airplane on rails and hatred of flexible tickets.

But I've done similar, aimed straight for coach C when the website was giving out counted place reservations.

They have already got rid of half of coach C unreserved seating!

 

[LickeyIncliner]

But this issue isn't about cardboard. It's about emails confirming what turn out to be non-existent seat reservations, with no coupons involved. It is surely possible to amend the email message that is generated, regardless of the limitations of the software which generates physical coupons?

I strongly agree, and have complained about this before. LNER advertise that passengers can reserve seats up to 5 minutes before departure. When I do so, using the LNER app on my phone, the usual outcome is that the app tells me I have a seat reservation and will get an email confirming it, an email arrives with a subject line saying "Seat reservation confirmation", and it's only when I try to find the coach and seat details in the email text that I find I don't have a seat after all. Unless the legal definition of "having a reserved seat" includes "trying to find somewhere to stand", the app and the email subject are simply lying.

 

[yorkie]

...In the end it was usually more effective to wait on the bridge and get ahead of everyone else before taking a seat in Coach C.

I suspect that LNER reduced unreserved seating as a result of too many people realising they could get a seat in Coach C

Wouldn't surprise me if LNER at some point decide to do away with the unreserved coach completely, in their drive to be an airplane on rails and hatred of flexible tickets.

I suspect LNER have already tried this, but the DfT perhaps said no. I am sure both parties would want this, but they realise they can't quite get away with it.

I strongly agree, and have complained about this before. LNER advertise that passengers can reserve seats up to 5 minutes before departure. When I do so, using the LNER app on my phone, the usual outcome is that the app tells me I have a seat reservation and will get an email confirming it, an email arrives with a subject line saying "Seat reservation confirmation", and it's only when I try to find the coach and seat details in the email text that I find I don't have a seat after all. Unless the legal definition of "having a reserved seat" includes "trying to find somewhere to stand", the app and the email subject are simply lying.

Indeed, LNER are addicted to misleading claims. I won't go into other misleading claims on this thread, but there are a lot of claims about their website which are misleading.

Sadly, there is no effective regulator, watchdog or ombudsman with the power to do anything, the desire to do anything or the knowledge to actually realise what they are up to.

 

[rg177]

Just as LNER changed to only making C03-42 (or C01-38ish on five-car Azumas) unreservable, an LNER TM complained to me that she and her colleagues had fed back that it was a daft idea to reduce the amount of unreserved seating.

As staff, it'll be far easier to communicate that Coach C is unreserved rather than a specific end!

 

[GW43125]

Just as LNER changed to only making C03-42 (or C01-38ish on five-car Azumas) unreservable, an LNER TM complained to me that she and her colleagues had fed back that it was a daft idea to reduce the amount of unreserved seating.

As staff, it'll be far easier to communicate that Coach C is unreserved rather than a specific end!

Been caught out by this before, reservation displays packed up on a 225 (but res still enforced), took our seats in C... only to be turfed out by a very apologetic family because we picked the "wrong" end...

 

[TUC]

Tonight, around 15 minutes before the journey, I reserved a Kings Cross-Doncaster seat on the 1930 ex-Kings Cross. A seat number was given in the reservation confirmation. However, when I got on the train I found that seat had a Kings Cross-Newcastle reservation against it. It leaves me to wonder whether LNER's last minute reservations system really works effectively at all?

 

[Watershed]

Tonight, around 15 minutes before the journey, I reserved a Kings Cross-Doncaster seat on the 1930 ex-Kings Cross. A seat number was given in the reservation confirmation. However, when I got on the train I found that seat had a Kings Cross-Newcastle reservation against it. It leaves me to wonder whether LNER's last minute reservations system really works effectively at all?

It could well be that it's a seat that's "pre-reserved" for the entire journey, kept back for last minute reservations. It can then be allocated to multiple customers throughout the journey. I think that's how XC's "10 minute reservation" system used to work.

 

[43096]

LNER need to have a look at their systems - if I book a ticket for another TOC for a non-reservable train, I get a message reminding me that I am booked in “Coach 1, Seat 00”. Utterly stupid.

 

[TUC]

It could well be that it's a seat that's "pre-reserved" for the entire journey, kept back for last minute reservations. It can then be allocated to multiple customers throughout the journey. I think that's how XC's "10 minute reservation" system used to work.

So how is a passenger such as myself meant to know for sure that it really is my Kings Cross- Doncaster reserved seat rather than for someone travelling from Kings Cross to Newcastle?

 

[Watershed]

So how is a passenger such as myself meant to know for sure that it really is my Kings Cross- Doncaster reserved seat rather than for someone travelling from Kings Cross to Newcastle?

Because you have the email that shows you which seat you have reserved.

 

[TUC]

Because you have the email that shows you which seat you have reserved.

Oh I do. It's more the feeling that someone else will also turn up with an email showing their reservation for the same seat for London-Newcastle.

It is needlessly ambiguous and confusing.

 

[800001]

Tonight, around 15 minutes before the journey, I reserved a Kings Cross-Doncaster seat on the 1930 ex-Kings Cross. A seat number was given in the reservation confirmation. However, when I got on the train I found that seat had a Kings Cross-Newcastle reservation against it. It leaves me to wonder whether LNER's last minute reservations system really works effectively at all?

The reservations will of already been downloaded to the train.

So for starting a journey at Kings Cross any reservation reserved roughly 25-30min prior will not show on the reservation screens, neither will anyone making a reservation on route up to 5 minutes before departure.

However, for a couple of years they keep saying a ‘fix’ is coming where the system should update when you make a reservation.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Tonight, around 15 minutes before the journey, I reserved a Kings Cross-Doncaster seat on the 1930 ex-Kings Cross. A seat number was given in the reservation confirmation. However, when I got on the train I found that seat had a Kings Cross-Newcastle reservation against it. It leaves me to wonder whether LNER's last minute reservations system really works effectively at all?

Was it a Seatfrog upgrade ?

The reservations will of already been downloaded to the train.

So for starting a journey at Kings Cross any reservation reserved roughly 25-30min prior will not show on the reservation screens, neither will anyone making a reservation on route up to 5 minutes before departure.

However, for a couple of years they keep saying a ‘fix’ is coming where the system should update when you make a reservation.

Sometime this year apparently.

 

[kkong]

The reservations will of already been downloaded to the train.

So for starting a journey at Kings Cross any reservation reserved roughly 25-30min prior will not show on the reservation screens, neither will anyone making a reservation on route up to 5 minutes before departure.

But how would that square with a reservation being issued for a seat which already had another reservation against it?