LNER : "this seat may get reserved"

[peteb]

This is overtalking the issue somewhat. Trains are designed to be able to move around them safely while in motion.

It's an annoyance, that's all. But it does have benefits - for instance, being able to reserve seats right up to departure and separate from ticket purchase makes the "Kings Cross scrum" rather less of an issue than the "Euston scrum".

Oh I agree for the starting station, eg: Euston or Kings X, it's the ability to reserve seats as the train progresses that concerns me.

I think they should have a cut-off time after which reservations aren't possible.

We don't want to get so reliant on reservations we end up with a RENFE type situation where every seat is reserved, no ability to turn up and go.

 

[Justin Smith]

If the light is green, it can't be reserved. Worth noting CrossCountry have the same thing on Voyager services, but without the colour light indicator, so you have to read the message. If it says available it won't be reserved later.

But that is of limited use if almost all the seats on the train say "may be reserved later".....

 

[Justin Smith]

Correct. As far as LNER are concerned theor trains are marked as 'reservations compulsory'. They won't sell you a ticket without a reservation.

Why are reservations compulsory ?
Whatever the answer to that I do not necessarily mind it, so long as it is not to the detriment of the turn up and go traveller. And having nearly all seats on a train marked as "may be reserved later" is undoubtedly doing that.
I thought the railways (as a whole) were heavily subsidised to try and encourage people out of their cars ? Most car drivers want to sacrifice as little flexibility as possible.

 

[Starmill]

But that is of limited use if almost all the seats on the train say "may be reserved later".....

It's more useful than on LNER because that message indicates the seat hasn't been reserved. If it's reserved later, it'll change. Also, the train manager on CrossCountry can reserve the seat for you once you're sat in it. But it does take a moment of time for them to do it and they may not be immediately available.

 

[Justin Smith]

No, once reservations are loaded on at origin station, the only way reservations update after that is if train managers manually go on to the on board train management system and refresh the reservations. That should in theory update the onboard systems.

I believe there is work ongoing in the back ground to make the Azuma auto update when people make a reservation once train has departed its origin.

That can only ever be acceptable if the system has some way of detecting if the seat is already taken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That can only ever be acceptable if the system has some way of detecting if the seat is already taken.

Avanti interestingly have installed such a thing though I don't believe it is in use yet.

 

[bramling]

Avanti interestingly have installed such a thing though I don't believe it is in use yet.

The biggest problem with LNER’s system seems to be that the trains don’t seem to update quickly. Recently I booked seats Edinburgh to Newcastle on an ex-Aberdeen service (we didn’t need to as the train was very lightly loaded, but I wanted to try the system out).

The seats we booked the day before were indeed showing on the train, but the ones we booked closer to time weren’t. It certainly doesn’t seem to work in real-time.

 

[800001]

The biggest problem with LNER’s system seems to be that the trains don’t seem to update quickly. Recently I booked seats Edinburgh to Newcastle on an ex-Aberdeen service (we didn’t need to as the train was very lightly loaded, but I wanted to try the system out).

The seats we booked the day before were indeed showing on the train, but the ones we booked closer to time weren’t. It certainly doesn’t seem to work in real-time.

The ones booked after reservations have been loaded at origin station (usually less than 20 min before departure) and any booked after departure, will not display, unless the train manager manually refreshes the system while train is on route.

A system upgrade should be coming soon to auto update any reservations booked less than 5 min before boarding.

 

[800001]

That can only ever be acceptable if the system has some way of detecting if the seat is already taken.

Same as Xc, display states that seat may be reserved route.

 

[WF4HA5HE]

That can only ever be acceptable if the system has some way of detecting if the seat is already taken

But if you haven't reserved a seat and have been warned by the message above saying it "may be reserved later" whats the issue with people reserving that seat?

 

[bramling]

The ones booked after reservations have been loaded at origin station (usually less than 20 min before departure) and any booked after departure, will not display, unless the train manager manually refreshes the system while train is on route.

A system upgrade should be coming soon to auto update any reservations booked less than 5 min before boarding.

That really must cause some arguments.

“Excuse me I have reserved this seat”
“It doesn’t say it’s reserved”

Certainly the case that fixing this can’t come soon enough, but really the reservation system should never have been implemented until this is addressed.

To be fair, LNER’s seat selector isn’t bad (part of my gripe with reservations is not being able to choose a specific seat, which this deals with), but completely falls down if you get on the train and the reservations aren’t up-to-date. Likewise if you want to change seats, for example if you get on and find there’s a hen party nearby, or whatever.

 

[AngusH]

But if you haven't reserved a seat and have been warned by the message above saying it "may be reserved later" whats the issue with people reserving that seat?

Because you're sitting in it presumably?

But if the previous message is correct the system doesn't display reservations made after the departure anyway,
so there is a good chance of an argument between the reservation holder and the seat occupant.

I can only assume that this wasn't adequately considered when these short notice reservation systems were designed
and that any complaints were either ignored or dismissed.

Closer to live updating will be good, as would a device (perhaps on the wall of the unreserved coach) that could issue reservations.


edit: tone was too harsh

 

[800001]

That really must cause some arguments.

“Excuse me I have reserved this seat”
“It doesn’t say it’s reserved”

Certainly the case that fixing this can’t come soon enough.

It says ‘may be reserved on route’. And displays orange light rather than green.

I agree it is bad for person sitting there.

 

[ricoblade]

I had a funny one today, booked the 15:33 from King's Cross back to Doncaster on the LNER website and it gave me an airline seat (ugh).

I used the seat selector to change it, there was a forward facing window table seat in the same coach, but I got the messgae "you can't change your seat as you've bought the last ticket" (or something to that effect).

Anyway, I've gone back on the website and managed to change the seat no problem (and just received a confirmation).

 

[bramling]

It says ‘may be reserved on route’. And displays orange light rather than green.

I agree it is bad for person sitting there.

It’s one thing saying “may be reserved”, but that doesn’t address the issue that the display doesn’t update when someone makes a reservation.

So as well as being bad for the person sitting there, it’s also bad for the person making the reservation if the sign makes no reference to that reservation then a lot of people already seated are - quite reasonably - going to tell them to do one.

 

[Royston Vasey]

It’s one thing saying “may be reserved”, but that doesn’t address the issue that the display doesn’t update when someone makes a reservation.

So as well as being bad for the person sitting there, it’s also bad for the person making the reservation if the sign makes no reference to that reservation then a lot of people already seated are - quite reasonably - going to tell them to do one.

Additionally, I can't personally differentiate at a glance the red "reserved" and red-orange "may he reserved" lights. I'm surely not the only one?

 

[Justin Smith]

But if you haven't reserved a seat and have been warned by the message above saying it "may be reserved later" whats the issue with people reserving that seat?

Maybe if it was a small minority of the seat's, but it is not, it applies to nearly all the seats on the train.
What we have here is on nearly every seat on the entire train it could be nicked from under your very bottom by anyone who has a smartphone and knows how to play the system. I am surprised you do think it is acceptable TBH.

 

[Justin Smith]

I had a funny one today, booked the 15:33 from King's Cross back to Doncaster on the LNER website and it gave me an airline seat (ugh).

I used the seat selector to change it, there was a forward facing window table seat in the same coach, but I got the messgae "you can't change your seat as you've bought the last ticket" (or something to that effect).

Anyway, I've gone back on the website and managed to change the seat no problem (and just received a confirmation).

Ahh, for the good old days where you could sit in any seat that wasn't actually reserved. And, in fact, you could confidently sit in that seat if it was before or after the section of journey it was booked for, or the train had left the station the intended passenger was supposed to board and it was still empty.
TBH I cannot believe we're having a discussion where the above no longer applies, and people are defending it ! The world is going mad.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What we have here is on nearly every seat on the entire train it could be nicked from under your very bottom by anyone who has a smartphone

Or who goes to a booking office or (I think) a TVM. A smartphone is not required.

and knows how to play the system.

How to use the system as intended.

I am surprised you do think it is acceptable TBH.

To be honest while I don't like to see the "sold out" nonsense which really needs to go away I'm all for this system, it's much less stressful to book a seat when I get to the station on my phone (or using the other options available) than to fight for one. Plus it gives me the information to decide if I might actually want to take a different train because there is only standing room available or very few seats.

With Avanti having installed seat occupancy detection (which can allegedly tell the difference between a person and a bag/coat) this should be the best of both worlds.

 

[WestAnglian]

It's been asserted in this thread that you can reserve a seat using the LNER app. I was told to do this by LNER recently when experiencing disruption. Yet the app appears to only allow this when you bought your ticket through LNER, and I never do. It also insists you create an account before you try to reserve. I have successfully reserved seats at short notice before, on LNER, Cross-Counrty and TPE, but only through the GWR site, which is more lenient. More often than not with LNER i've been told that no seats are available so I've had to take the chance of being turfed out of my seat.

I entirely agree with OP - it's an awful system; yet another way the railways impose stress unnecessarily.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's been asserted in this thread that you can reserve a seat using the LNER app. I was told to do this by LNER recently when experiencing disruption. Yet the app appears to only allow this when you bought your ticket through LNER, and I never do.

No, it doesn't. You can have booked via any retailer, or indeed not booked at all yet! (Just put 0 in as the ticket reference if you haven't booked or you bought from a booking office).

It also insists you create an account before you try to reserve.

This is pretty standard and takes seconds. Use a throwaway email address and a fake name if it really bothers you as if that's all you use it for it'll never process any payments and thus won't know or care.

I have successfully reserved seats at short notice before, on LNER, Cross-Counrty and TPE, but only through the GWR site, which is more lenient. More often than not with LNER i've been told that no seats are available so I've had to take the chance of being turfed out of my seat.

I entirely agree with OP - it's an awful system; yet another way the railways impose stress unnecessarily.

Removes stress, you mean. Fighting for a seat is one of the worst things about the railway and walk-up travel. Walk-up travel with the ability to reserve close to departure is to me the best of both worlds and allows informed choice (e.g. wait for another train or travel anyway knowing you'll be standing, depending on the urgency of the journey).

Of course LNER seeks to remove walk-up travel entirely (or at least to price it off) - and I don't support that!

 

[WestAnglian]

No, it doesn't. You can have booked via any retailer, or indeed not booked at all yet! (Just put 0 in as the ticket reference if you haven't booked or you bought from a booking office).

So how are you supposed to know that?

You also say that it takes seconds to create an account. That isn't my experience, once you consider the time to verify the email address and generate a secure password. And once you do that the app helpfully takes you to the home page or journey planner, not the reservations page you were on before it demanded you authenticate.

As for fighting for a seat, why is it better mid-jouney, maybe multiple times, rather than just when you board?

I'm not against the ability to book just before travel. I don't think anyone is. It's the fact that people choosing unreserved, not merely vacant, seats can get ejected mid-journey. I can't see any way you can justify treating people like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So how are you supposed to know that?

It literally says so if you tap on the (i) by the box. See attached screenshot (photo is a screenshot of the LNER app showing "Please enter 0 if you cannot locate your reference number").

I don't think they actually do anything with the number, it's just to passively discourage people from reserving seats on multiple trains only intending to travel on one of them.

You also say that it takes seconds to create an account. That isn't my experience, once you consider the time to verify the email address and generate a secure password. And once you do that the app helpfully takes you to the home page or journey planner, not the reservations page you were on before it demanded you authenticate.

Does it matter? You only do it once.

As for fighting for a seat, why is it better mid-jouney, maybe multiple times, rather than just when you board?

If you reserve, then you don't need to do it "mid journey, multiple times". I do accept that Avanti's occupancy detection system is better as it solves that, though (if it works!)

I'm not against the ability to book just before travel. I don't think anyone is. It's the fact that people choosing unreserved, not merely vacant, seats can get ejected mid-journey. I can't see any way you can justify treating people like that.

Booking just before travel other than at termini is only possible if you have some seats that "may be reserved later". It's literally impossible to do it otherwise.

 

[WestAnglian]

It literally says so if you tap on the (i) by the box. See attached screenshot (photo is a screenshot of the LNER app showing "Please enter 0 if you cannot locate your reference number").

I don't think they actually do anything with the number, it's just to passively discourage people from reserving seats on multiple trains only intending to travel on one of them.



Does it matter? You only do it once.



If you reserve, then you don't need to do it "mid journey, multiple times". I do accept that Avanti's occupancy detection system is better as it solves that, though (if it works!)



Booking just before travel other than at termini is only possible if you have some seats that "may be reserved later". It's literally impossible to do it otherwise.

I didn't click the i because I know perfectly well what a booking reference is. It's far from obvious that an information icon would inform you that a mandatory field, which may not be left blank, can be effectively ignored by filling with a dummy. And if it's that easy to override the need for a booking reference then it clearly wouldn't discourage the person making spurious reservations. I'm a very experienced rail user and I didn't know about this, so at the least I thank you for information that I will find useful in the future.

Your final sentence, and the earlier assertions that seats with a green light may not be booked mid-journey, are also both news to me and I'm sure others. I could have sworn I've booked short-notice seats on XC and found them unreserved when I've taken them. Have you any cites for this? Does it apply on LNER, XC, Avanti and TPE? I note that even GA now offers Seatfrog so the menace is spreading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't click the i because I know perfectly well what a booking reference is.

Well, I guess you didn't know it didn't have to be a LNER booking reference. If unsure, clicking the help icon is a good idea.

Your final sentence, and the earlier assertions that seats with a green light may not be booked mid-journey, are also both news to me and I'm sure others. I could have sworn I've booked short-notice seats on XC and found them unreserved when I've taken them. Have you any cites for this? Does it apply on LNER, XC, Avanti and TPE? I note that even GA now offers Seatfrog so the menace is spreading.

GA do not do seat reservations at all, so presumably they just get a counted place with Seatfrog.

I have no idea how XC do it I'm afraid, but knowing XC generally the answer is likely "badly".

 

[Mainline421]

Seatfrog can only be taken up to 30 minutes before departure from the origin anyway so doesn't inconvenience walk ups in this way (although does list the seat as reserved for the whole journey when I've had one starting en route) .

The GA system is still better than what LNER currently do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seatfrog can only be taken up to 30 minutes before departure from the origin anyway

Eh? Seatfrog auctions initially happen a day or two in advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The GA system is still better than what LNER currently do.

I think I'd say:

First preference: LNER style so I can choose my seat once I know which train I'm taking, removing stress at the time of travel
Second preference: GA style i.e. a whole long train with no seats reserved at all
Least preference: the traditional way with a lot of reserved seats and walk-up fighting over a few (I suspect that this isn't the case at Kings X is why there isn't as bad a scrum there as Euston)

 

[Mainline421]

Eh? Seatfrog auctions initially happen a day or two in advance.

... Until 30 minutes before departure. Although unless someone uses skip the auction (never a good price) they don't sell before then either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

... Until 30 minutes before departure. Although unless someone uses skip the auction (never a good price) they don't sell before then either.

That isn't the case. There are also threshold bids which result in an upgrade being issued well in advance of that if there's more than one seat on offer, which has happened to me both times I've used it - in both cases the upgrade was issued a day or two in advance of travel.