London Blackfriars - Thameslink - 20-21/4/2024

[Mcq]

Does anyone know why there do not appear to be any trains stopping at this station on these dates.
Can't seem to find any info.

 

[poffle]

Does anyone know why there do not appear to be any trains stopping at this station on these dates.
Can't seem to find any info.

Thameslink Core is closed on Sat/Sun 20th 21st for planned engineering works. Not unusual at weekends.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/planned-engineering-work?date=2024-04-20#engineering-departure-board

 

[Mcq]

Thanks very much _ I missed that

 

[modernrail]

I don’t really understand why it is not unusual at weekends though. Is there not a way they could try and get ahead in the core with some intense activity and reduce the amount of engineering. For both this route and what is now the Windrush overground the downtime at weekends seems well in excess of other routes.

 

[AM9]

I don’t really understand why it is not unusual at weekends though. Is there not a way they could try and get ahead in the core with some intense activity and reduce the amount of engineering. For both this route and what is now the Windrush overground the downtime at weekends seems well in excess of other routes.

As a guess, the TL core is one of the most intensively used sections of the railway. Despite it having a number of measures to assist its continued operation when disruption occurs, (e.g. full bidirectional working and a DC 3rd rail and ac OLE overlap), the underlying infrastructure needs regular maintenance which owing to the restricted clearances requires full engineering possession. Remember that Thameslink services through the core run 24/7 so there is no 4 hour gap every night in which minor jobs can be undertaken.

 

[Mcq]

Perhaps closing the core over night at times would be less inconvenient to the majority than weekend closures.
Looking at my local London trains they are at their busiest over the weekend, especially Saturday.
I appreciate at times there would still need to be a longer (weekend) closure.

 

[AM9]

Perhaps closing the core over night at times would be less inconvenient to the majority than weekend closures.
Looking at my local London trains they are at their busiest over the weekend, especially Saturday.
I appreciate at times there would still need to be a longer (weekend) closure.

Night closures effectively yield about 4 hours possession for engineering. For anything more than fixing single failures, it is very inefficient and disrupts a fair few passengers as there would be no alternatives outside Zone 6. At weekends, most of London's transport infrastructure is fully operational.

 

[Horizon22]

Night closures effectively yield about 4 hours possession for engineering. For anything more than fixing single failures, it is very inefficient and disrupts a fair few passengers as there would be no alternatives outside Zone 6. At weekends, most of London's transport infrastructure is fully operational.

Indeed. The core is easily traversable via alternative Underground or bus routes for an added 15 mins or so of travel time.

 

[modernrail]

Is there a policy of putting bullet proof as possible kit in the core to reduce overall requirements to close the core.

Those other routes are pretty packed at the weekend and it seems to be that we lose the whole of the Sutton loop pretty regularly for which there are less alternatives.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thameslink core is undergoing a programme to make it more resilient after a number of high profile infrastructure failures. This is requiring more weekend closures whereas the standard maintenance closures are usually just Sunday only. There is a blockade of the Thameslink core coming up this Christmas for that work.

ELL has a lot of closures at the minute at weekends because they are rebuilding Surrey Quays station.

 

[Mcq]

Thanks @Peregrine 4903 - it's a massively important core and not that easy to cross London without - takes a fair amount of traffic from N of London to Gatwick, Brighton etc - especially at weekends.

 

[LBMPSB]

As a guess, the TL core is one of the most intensively used sections of the railway. Despite it having a number of measures to assist its continued operation when disruption occurs, (e.g. full bidirectional working and a DC 3rd rail and ac OLE overlap), the underlying infrastructure needs regular maintenance which owing to the restricted clearances requires full engineering possession. Remember that Thameslink services through the core run 24/7 so there is no 4 hour gap every night in which minor jobs can be undertaken.

Unfortunately the Core section doesn't have full bi-directional working, it is more like the old BR Simbids(simplified bi-directional) with only a few signals & ETCS sections in the opposite direction. Between City Thameslink and St Pancras, over the Northbound line going north, there are 14 signal section/19 ECTS sections, but over the Northbound line going south there are only 7 signal & ETCS sections. Over the same section on the Southbound line going south, there are 14 signal sections/18 ETCS sections. In the opposite direction, going north over the Southbound line, there are only 5 signal and ETCS sections. That coupled with only a couple of poorly located crossover point work, makes the use of birectional working through the core very slow and delay accumulation. If only more crossovers were planned, such either ends of station platforms, and more signal/ETCS sections, it could have been better and used more.

 

[Mcq]

Thanks @LBMPSB

 

[Jan Mayen]

Thameslink core is undergoing a programme to make it more resilient after a number of high profile infrastructure failures. This is requiring more weekend closures whereas the standard maintenance closures are usually just Sunday only. There is a blockade of the Thameslink core coming up this Christmas for that work.

ELL has a lot of closures at the minute at weekends because they are rebuilding Surrey Quays station.

Has information about this upcoming Christmas 2024 blockade been made available online please?

 

[Somewhere]

Has information about this upcoming Christmas 2024 blockade been made available online please?

Maybe its to do with the continual pantograph strikes?

 

[Jan Mayen]

I wouldn't be surprised. Anyone know the actual dates, and if trains will be terminating at Blackfriards from the south?

Maybe its to do with the continual pantograph strikes?

S

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t really understand why it is not unusual at weekends though. Is there not a way they could try and get ahead in the core with some intense activity and reduce the amount of engineering. For both this route and what is now the Windrush overground the downtime at weekends seems well in excess of other routes.

There is a weekend closure of the core every 13 weeks (4 times per year) to do the heavier maintenance and renewal that needs a longer duration of time than 7.5 hours. For example some rerailing takes longer than on regular lines, partly because of it being in tunnel, and partly because some parts have special track fixing (for engineering reasons) which takes longer to remove.

Don’t forget the only maintenance access all week in a standard week is 0150-0915 Sunday morning, as the line is open all night every other night. This is about a third of the maintenance access for most underground lines for example, and a quarter of what the Elizabeth Line core gets.

Is there a policy of putting bullet proof as possible kit in the core to reduce overall requirements to close the core.

Yes, and this was a principle of the Thameslink programme back when the route was upgraded. For example the conductor bar rather than OLE, special hardened rail, slab track in places, Bi-di (which is full bidi, not simbids, albeit not as many signal sections as on the right line running), Proceed on sight signals (POSAs), auto-reconfigurable signalling power supplies, little in the way of trackside equipment other than what must be there, etc etc.


To add, the core closures are coordinated with TfL, so passengers can get across London. It is also often the case that a core closure happens on marathon weekend, as the whole of the inner Southeastern network has to be kept open to get runners to the start, and London Bridge depot would otherwise have nothing to do

Maybe its to do with the continual pantograph strikes?

Nope. They are not ‘continual’ either. How many this year?

 

[43066]

Don’t forget the only maintenance access all week in a standard week is 0150-0915 Sunday morning, as the line is open all night every other night. This is about a third of the maintenance access for most underground lines for example, and a quarter of what the Elizabeth Line core gets.

That does put its reliability into perspective, to be fair, and reflects my own personal experience. It’s the other parts of the network that lead to Thameslink’s frequent delays. Issues in the core are pretty rare.

 

[Bald Rick]

That does put its reliability into perspective, to be fair, and reflects my own personal experience. It’s the other parts of the network that lead to Thameslink’s frequent delays. Issues in the core are pretty rare.

Indeed. That‘s what ‘bullet proof’ spec, weekly light maintnenace and 4 x per year weekend maintenance gets you.

By far the most troublesome aspects of the core are failed Insulated Rail Joints between Farringdon and Blackfriars (caused by arcing across them as a result of DC return current flows), and flooding in Clerkenwell tunnels (caused partly during periods of heavy rain, but also a repeatedly failing Thames water pipe, and drains that had catch pits filling up much more quickly than they should have. The pipe and the drains have now fixed and the flooding seems to have been resolved).

 

[jon0844]

The core does seem very resilient and has proved some of the most cynical people (and I count myself as one of those early on) wrong.

 

[Magdalia]

The core does seem very resilient and has proved some of the most cynical people (and I count myself as one of those early on) wrong.

I was cynical about resilience in the core at 24tph and I think that I have yet to be proved wrong.

I was saying 10 years ago that 20tph in the core was the maximum that could be delivered resiliently and nothing has happened yet to change my view.

 

[jon0844]

I was cynical about resilience in the core at 24tph and I think that I have yet to be proved wrong.

I was saying 10 years ago that 20tph in the core was the maximum that could be delivered resiliently and nothing has happened yet to change my view.

That's a fair point. But as it stands, the services run pretty well and it doesn't look like we'll be testing max capacity for a while.

The platforms don't get so overcrowded that it becomes potentially dangerous. A big fear I had was that with so many different destinations and stopping patterns, people would get in the way of others waiting for a later train. As it turns out, most people stand well back, or sit (and there could easily be more seating added to further help) and only get up when their train is coming in.. and they all stand right by the floor vinyls for the doors.

I am speaking mostly of St Pancras here. Farringdon is somewhat cramped and potentially dangerous. City Thameslink and Blackfriars also seem pretty well controlled.

 

[AM9]

That's a fair point. But as it stands, the services run pretty well and it doesn't look like we'll be testing max capacity for a while.

The platforms don't get so overcrowded that it becomes potentially dangerous. A big fear I had was that with so many different destinations and stopping patterns, people would get in the way of others waiting for a later train. As it turns out, most people stand well back, or sit (and there could easily be more seating added to further help) and only get up when their train is coming in.. and they all stand right by the floor vinyls for the doors.

I am speaking mostly of St Pancras here. Farringdon is somewhat cramped and potentially dangerous. City Thameslink and Blackfriars also seem pretty well controlled.

I've found that those feeling uncomfotable when the platform at Farringdon gets crowded tend to congregate at the southern end of the platform where the new build has given much more room. The Lizzy has drawn a lot of the interchange traffic away from the LU end of the station so it is mainly those who want to travel to stations with exits at the northern end and have a short walk to the exit that squeeze near the front of the train. I assume that a similar distribution exists on the southbound platform except that the front of the train is in the area with the most platform space, (which given Brighton has a concourse gateline, works better for thos passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've found that those feeling uncomfotable when the platform at Farringdon gets crowded tend to congregate at the southern end of the platform where the new build has given much more room. The Lizzy has drawn a lot of the interchange traffic away from the LU end of the station so it is mainly those who want to travel to stations with exits at the northern end and have a short walk to the exit that squeeze near the front of the train. I assume that a similar distribution exists on the southbound platform except that the front of the train is in the area with the most platform space, (which given Brighton has a concourse gateline, works better for thos passengers.

Slightly OT, but I’m astonished how many people are now boarding at Farringdon in the morning and then alighting at City TL. It can’t be much quicker than walking!

 

[43066]

Slightly OT, butI’, astonished how many people are now boardign at Farringdon in the mornign and then alighting at City TL. It can’t be much quicker than walking!

Presumably interchanging from the Lizzy line, and feeling lazy!

 

[Mcq]

Hi @Bald Rick - I started this thread because I needed to make this journey - somehow.
From a position of ignorance, I am much informed by your care and knowledge in painting the fuller picture - a very big thank you.
This is when these posts are at their best, when they inform - as opposed to being point scoring/whinges.
Thanks @Bald Rick for all you bring to the forum - you must have to bite your tongue at times

 

[modernrail]

Hi @Bald Rick - I started this thread because I needed to make this journey - somehow.
From a position of ignorance, I am much informed by your care and knowledge in painting the fuller picture - a very big thank you.
This is when these posts are at their best, when they inform - as opposed to being point scoring/whinges.
Thanks @Bald Rick for all you bring to the forum - you must have to bite your tongue at times

Agreed!

The one thing I find confusing at Farringdon is the super time restricted exit times on the Turnmill St exit. It seems crazy to me not to encourage as much traffic as possible out of/into that exit to reduce footfall at the other end of the platforms where space is quite restricted and there are lots of cross-flows with the Elizabeth Line.

I wonder what the justification is for not having such a useful exit open at such a now very busy central London station.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There is a weekend closure of the core every 13 weeks (4 times per year) to do the heavier maintenance and renewal that needs a longer duration of time than 7.5 hours. For example some rerailing takes longer than on regular lines, partly because of it being in tunnel, and partly because some parts have special track fixing (for engineering reasons) which takes longer to remove.

Don’t forget the only maintenance access all week in a standard week is 0150-0915 Sunday morning, as the line is open all night every other night. This is about a third of the maintenance access for most underground lines for example, and a quarter of what the Elizabeth Line core gets.

The Victoria Line doesn't have this level of access and runs a far more intensive train service although probably comparable in tonne-miles

 

[Bald Rick]

The Victoria Line doesn't have this level of access and runs a far more intensive train service although probably comparable in tonne-miles

Vic line has 4.5hrs access, 5 nights a week, with almost an extra hour in the early hours of Mondays. I make that 23hrs / week, every week (compared to 7.5 for Thameslink) plus occasional longer closures at weekends on both lines. The Vic also has a traction system fully insulated from the running rails, which (as above) makes quite a difference.

The 2009 stock is also less than half the weight of a 700/1.

 

[Somewhere]

Nope. They are not ‘continual’ either. How many this year?

Its only April