London Buses Discussion

[Simon75]

Looking on the gov.uk website, it says TFL (transport for London) routes, can't claim the Bus Service Operators Grant?, why is that?

 

[markymark2000]

Looking on the gov.uk website, it says TFL (transport for London) routes, can't claim the Bus Service Operators Grant?, why is that?

Because they are 'minimum cost' (contractor, in this case TFL, retains the revenue) not 'minimum subsidy' (operator keeps onboard revenue) contracts.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm surprised that the 88 has not been cancelled for the same reason (if it still goes down Marsham Street and the DfT is still there - it has been many years since I last worked in that vacinty).

The 88 does still go down Marsham Street. The main DfT offices are on Horseferry Road, just off Marsham Street. Also around that area are Home Office, DEFRA, DLUHC, DfE and BEIS. I work for one of that lot (not DfT!).

 

[Busaholic]

Mike Harris has already published a map of the proposed service changes

https://www.busmap.co.uk/free-downloads/GLBM%20-%20Central%20London%20Consultation%20Bus%20Map.pdf

It's very good of him to take the trouble, but it's hard to try to combat these (mainly) pernicious changes just by showing them on a map. It's not as though more than a handful of roads or a slightly larger number of stops are no longer going to be served. Regardless of the number on the bus, there are bus corridors which have existed and thrived for decades, and it's not apathy on TfL's part that has let these run, but because actual passengers find them useful. Take Sloane Square and the Kings Road westward to Piccadilly Circus, not a journey easily done by tube. Until a couple of years ago there were the 19 and 22, now just the 19, in future nothing. Nothing from Victoria, Victoria Street and Whitehall up Charing Cross Road, when 24s and 29s not so long ago provided a bus every four or five minutes maximum? I refuse to believe the demand is not there, though I believe how the 24 has been controlled has probably lost a number of those would-be passengers.

 

[MotCO]

Nothing from Victoria, Victoria Street and Whitehall up Charing Cross Road, when 24s and 29s not so long ago provided a bus every four or five minutes maximum? I refuse to believe the demand is not there, though I believe how the 24 has been controlled has probably lost a number of those would-be passengers.

The 24 and 29 suffered (pre Covid at least) for horrendous traffic delays between Leicester Square and Trafalgar Square. How the drivers coped with it, and how you could run a reliable service, is beyond me.

 

[Man of Kent]

It's very good of him to take the trouble, but it's hard to try to combat these (mainly) pernicious changes just by showing them on a map. It's not as though more than a handful of roads or a slightly larger number of stops are no longer going to be served. Regardless of the number on the bus, there are bus corridors which have existed and thrived for decades, and it's not apathy on TfL's part that has let these run, but because actual passengers find them useful. Take Sloane Square and the Kings Road westward to Piccadilly Circus, not a journey easily done by tube. Until a couple of years ago there were the 19 and 22, now just the 19, in future nothing. Nothing from Victoria, Victoria Street and Whitehall up Charing Cross Road, when 24s and 29s not so long ago provided a bus every four or five minutes maximum? I refuse to believe the demand is not there, though I believe how the 24 has been controlled has probably lost a number of those would-be passengers.

Sadly journey times are now so slow in central London, it is simply painful to try to make longer journeys by bus. Unsurprisingly this has done nothing for passenger numbers. On a recent visit, the District Line had severe disruption, and the alternative 3 mile bus journey from Cannon Street to Victoria took around 40 minutes - that's an average speed of just below 5mph. Much the same to get from Victoria to Holborn, a route chosen so that my aging and less mobile father did not have to deal with the steps found at many of central London's underground stations.

It should be no surprise really - transport strategies have for some considerable time made it clear that central London priorities are for pedestrians and cyclists ahead of buses. In some ways, this is a good thing, for a lot of effort has gone into making it easier for would-be bus passengers to cross busy roads. Trafalgar Square is undoubtedly more pleasant now that it does not function as a giant roundabout, but it and similar measures have come at a cost, and that is considerably slower bus services, resulting in fewer passengers.

 

[johncrossley]

Mike Harris has already published a map of the proposed service changes

https://www.busmap.co.uk/free-downloads/GLBM%20-%20Central%20London%20Consultation%20Bus%20Map.pdf

Hardly any road is left with just one route with several roads still having three or more routes. The famously overbussed Kingsway still has six routes. TfL are still wasting a lot of money because of their refusal to integrate bus and tube fares.

 

[Deerfold]

I believe TfL recently said only 91% (might have been 95% cannot find article at moment) of Bus stops are fully accessible

The others aren’t either because of vehicle crossovers, wrong height kerbs, grass verges, shared cycle spaces preventing deployment of ramps, or curves etc preventing buses stopping close enough to kerbs (most TfL ramps are in middle, not front, so buses need to stop parallel and close to kerb)

So the notion that buses are 100% accessible, but tube isn’t is, is misleading

I don't remember suggesting that to be the case.

But a far higher proportion of bus stops are accessible than tube stops. And it's a lot easier to move on to the next bus stop than the next tube stop.

When 31% of tube stations are accessible, it seems odd to use the word "only" in front of 91%.

 

[duncanp]

Mike Harris has already published a map of the proposed service changes

https://www.busmap.co.uk/free-downloads/GLBM%20-%20Central%20London%20Consultation%20Bus%20Map.pdf

Isn't it amazing how one individual can publish this map, yet TfL can't be bothered to get off their backsides and do the same?

 

[johncrossley]

Isn't it amazing how one individual can publish this map, yet TfL can't be bothered to get off their backsides and do the same?

But if a map is being produced anyway, then is there any need for TfL to spend taxpayers' money duplicating it? With transport apps I find that ones produced by enthusiasts are better than 'official' apps.

 

[duncanp]

But if a map is being produced anyway, then is there any need for TfL to spend taxpayers' money duplicating it? With transport apps I find that ones produced by enthusiasts are better than 'official' apps.

There isn't any need for TfL to spend money producing a map if this is being done by an enthusiast, but TfL are the ones who should be producing the map in the first place.

It is a sad comment on TfL and their woeful publicity and communications that an enthusiast should feel it necessary to produce a map in the first place.

TfL should also be producing "before" and "after" spider maps for all the affected areas, so that people can visualise the effect of the changes.

But there again, maybe TfL don't want people to realise what changes are proposed, so that when the "consultation" closes, they can just implement them anyway.

 

[johncrossley]

I note that Horseferry Road will continue to be served seven days a week. It wasn't that long ago that the 507 ran Monday to Friday only. I don't remember TfL getting flak for not serving Horseferry Road at the weekends.

There isn't any need for TfL to spend money producing a map if this is being done by an enthusiast, but TfL are the ones who should be producing the map in the first place.

It is a sad comment on TfL and their woeful publicity and communications that an enthusiast should feel it necessary to produce a map in the first place.

TfL should also be producing "before" and "after" spider maps for all the affected areas, so that people can visualise the effect of the changes.

But there again, maybe TfL don't want people to realise what changes are proposed, so that when the "consultation" closes, they can just implement them anyway.

Mike Harris has been producing his independent maps for a long time, well before TfL stopped making their own. TfL used to have all of London on one sheet but then split it into five separate maps, so the Mike Harris map may have been produced to maintain the tradition of a single map covering the whole of London.

The concept of a spider map is somewhat out of date because that only gives direct services. TfL have, belatedly, and only because of financial problems, finally worked out that you can't have direct services from everywhere to everywhere.

 

[Busaholic]

I note that Horseferry Road will continue to be served seven days a week. It wasn't that long ago that the 507 ran Monday to Friday only. I don't remember TfL getting flak for not serving Horseferry Road at the weekends.




Mike Harris has been producing his independent maps for a long time, well before TfL stopped making their own. TfL used to have all of London on one sheet but then split it into five separate maps, so the Mike Harris map may have been produced to maintain the tradition of a single map covering the whole of London.

The concept of a spider map is somewhat out of date because that only gives direct services. TfL have, belatedly, and only because of financial problems, finally worked out that you can't have direct services from everywhere to everywhere.

Horseferry Road, as you state, continues to host a bus service seven days a week. The weekend service probably only continues because of TfL's obsession that almost all routes must run seven days a week well into the evening, refusing to countenance short workings over part route for instance. Even frequencies barely vary much at these times either. Replacing the 507 with the 3 on this road retains the link to Victoria, which is fairly walkable from most of the road for many people, but removes the St Thomas's Hospital/Waterloo Station link which is not only further but pedestrian-unfriendly, and has existed since 1940. There are no tube stations very near to hand either.

I am sure Mike Harris would be willing to let TfL distribute his maps if suitable recompense, acknowledgement etc could be organised. Mind you, their predecessors' treatment of Harry Beck wouldn't give him much encouragement.

The last people at London Transport HQ who believed 'everywhere should be connected with everywhere' buswise (accepting your deliberate exaggeration) retired in the 1970s and 1980s. After that it was only a proportion of bus spotters/enthusiasts/transport forum users who might advocate this. That doesn't mean,though, that major arteries in the centre of London should only be served by one or two bus routes, especially with the gaps and deficiencies in our Underground system.

 

[johncrossley]

Horseferry Road, as you state, continues to host a bus service seven days a week. The weekend service probably only continues because of TfL's obsession that almost all routes must run seven days a week well into the evening

However, the 521 doesn't run on weekends.

but removes the St Thomas's Hospital/Waterloo Station link which is not only further but pedestrian-unfriendly, and has existed since 1940. There are no tube stations very near to hand either.

The 77 looks like it has been diverted that way.

The last people at London Transport HQ who believed 'everywhere should be connected with everywhere' buswise (accepting your deliberate exaggeration) retired in the 1970s and 1980s.

There was never a time when you could travel from anywhere to anywhere by direct bus.

After that it was only a proportion of bus spotters/enthusiasts/transport forum users who might advocate this. That doesn't mean,though, that major arteries in the centre of London should only be served by one or two bus routes, especially with the gaps and deficiencies in our Underground system.

The Mike Harris map shows that many roads in central London will still have at least three routes.

 

[Busaholic]

However, the 521 doesn't run on weekends.







There was never a time when you could travel from anywhere to anywhere by direct bus.

The 521 won't be running at all if these plans come to fruition, so TfL's 'one size fits all' policy will get nearer to 100% compliance.


It is you who keeps claiming that changes to London's network will help to dismantle your strange notion that London bus planners have been wasting huge resources trying to maintain as many direct links as possible. I have noticed very similar arguments over the years on this and another forum by a contributor who disappears and then seems to reappear under a new identity, on occasion running both identities together for a while.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It is you who keeps claiming that changes to London's network will help to dismantle your strange notion that London bus planners have been wasting huge resources trying to maintain as many direct links as possible. I have noticed very similar arguments over the years on this and another forum by a contributor who disappears and then seems to reappear under a new identity, on occasion running both identities together for a while.

I would love to know how some think it’s a “waste of resources” to maintain direct links to where people want to go? Very strange notion indeed especially since not long ago TfL ran tv ad campaigns encouraging Londoners to ditch the car and get the bus, it would be an even bigger waste sending buses somewhere where very few people want to go.

 

[Busaholic]

I would love to know how some think it’s a “waste of resources” to maintain direct links to where people want to go? Very strange notion indeed especially since not long ago TfL ran tv ad campaigns encouraging Londoners to ditch the car and get the bus, it would be an even bigger waste sending buses somewhere where very few people want to go.

Quite. I think there are very few with a genuine interest or expertise in bus operation who hold these views, but they can be very vocal on forums. There appear to be certain political views shared too, but the reality may be multiple accounts held over a period of time by an individual or individuals, so not all simultaneously.

 

[Astradyne]

There isn't any need for TfL to spend money producing a map if this is being done by an enthusiast, but TfL are the ones who should be producing the map in the first place.

It is a sad comment on TfL and their woeful publicity and communications that an enthusiast should feel it necessary to produce a map in the first place.

TfL should also be producing "before" and "after" spider maps for all the affected areas, so that people can visualise the effect of the changes.

But there again, maybe TfL don't want people to realise what changes are proposed, so that when the "consultation" closes, they can just implement them anyway.

The same could be said for timetables, but requests for timetables are normally directed to the independent site londonbusroutes.net

 

[duncanp]

The same could be said for timetables, but requests for timetables are normally directed to the independent site londonbusroutes.net

Surely the provision of maps and timetables should be the responsibility of the company or transport authority operating the service?

It just shows how standards at TfL have fallen if they rely on an enthusiast to do their job for them.

 

[Statto]

Surely the provision of maps and timetables should be the responsibility of the company or transport authority operating the service?

It just shows how standards at TfL have fallen if they rely on an enthusiast to do their job for them.

Agreed, TfL publicity is dreadful when it comes to buses, & has been for a few years now, which is shocking for a major capital City & a tourist destination, we on Merseyside, Merseytravel regularly update timetables from commercial routes, when routes & or times change, & have good network of bus maps

 

[Wolfie]

Agreed, TfL publicity is dreadful when it comes to buses, & has been for a few years now, which is shocking for a major capital City & a tourist destination, we on Merseyside, Merseytravel regularly update timetables from commercial routes, when routes & or times change, & have good network of bus maps

To be fair buses probably form a much bigger part of the overall transport system on Merseyside than in London.

 

[Timmyd]

I don’t understand why TFL hasn’t looked to remove duplication of services from all the new services added in the past 30 years. For instance, the 363, 417 and 432 are short extensions of the 63, 137 and 2 to Crystal Palace respectively (I think designed in the latter two cases to eliminate crew operation on quiet sections), which then duplicate the parent route along long sections. If TFL were to ditch being wedded to running every bus the full route (ie in each case to extend 50% of the buses to Crystal Palace) it could reduce unnecessary duplication (which always leads to bunching as the timetables aren’t co-ordinated), maybe add a few buses to the parent route if needed (it wouldn’t be in the case of the 137) and then save 3 whole routes just in this one part of London

 

[158756]

To be fair buses probably form a much bigger part of the overall transport system on Merseyside than in London.

You could say the same about buses being less important in e.g. Paris, but that doesn't stop RATP producing excellent maps.

 

[Wolfie]

You could say the same about buses being less important in e.g. Paris, but that doesn't stop RATP producing excellent maps.

Fair comment albeit that RATP don't have the same financial issues.

 

[richardcoughla]

Arriva's HV4 caught fire this morning while on the 333

 

[hkstudent]

I wonder why TfL has opted for stopping bus midway to space out buses rather asking for one of the bus to do non stop service to catch up the delay, which will further delay the journey if everyone, ending up terminating short some buses.

 

[150249]

Arriva's HV4 caught fire this morning while on the 333

Shame. This is one of the only buses I travelled on during my time in London

 

[Busoccultation]

Confirmed on londonbusroutes.net that the transfer of Tower Transit Lea Interchange garage to Stagecoach will take place tomorrow with the routes and likely all the buses currently based there.

 

[richardcoughla]

It looks like VW1881 has been involved in a RTC in I think Wembley with a car and a unidentified DE.

 

[Snow1964]

Andy Lord (TfL commissioner) has told London Assembly that the proposed central London bus cuts (16 routes, with 78 others altered) will save £35m per year.

TfL is currently holding a public consultation on plans to axe up to 16 bus routes entirely and make amendments to 78 more in order to meet savings targets imposed by the Governmentas part of an emergency funding deal. The consultation has been extended until August 7 to allow Londoners more time to have their say.
Under the terms of the Government bailout, TfL is required to make savings of £730 million per year to achieve financial sustainability.

Speaking at a meeting of the London Assemblytransport committee at City Hall on Wednesday, TfL Chief Operating Officer Andy Lord revealed that the proposed bus cuts would contribute £35 million per year towards that savings target.

Biggest bus cuts in a decade to save TfL £35 million per year

The proposed cuts to bus services in London will only lead to savings of £35 million per year for TfL, it has been revealed.

www.standard.co.uk

The consultation for these has been extended and will now close on 7th August instead of 12th July

Central London Bus Review

Update 6 March 2023 Today we have published our Response to issues raised document. This sets out our response to the key issues raised during the Central London Bus Review (CLBR) consultation held in summer 2022. We once again thank everyone that took part in this

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk