London Buses Discussion

[Dstock7080]

Do you have a source?

LOTS are reporting both changes:

London Omnibus Traction Society

Britain's biggest bus enthusiasts' group.

www.lots.org.uk

However the X26 (Croydon & Heathrow) is well within the loop concept and will become SL7 from 19 August. This latter will be doubled in frequency to x15 mins

 

[Busaholic]

LOTS are reporting both changes:

London Omnibus Traction Society

Britain's biggest bus enthusiasts' group.

www.lots.org.uk

It strikes me, on reflection, that seeing as how the 607 and X68 are to be integrated into the Superloop concept, that further 'straight line' express routes should be considered from central London to northern and eastern parts of Superloop territory e.g. express versions of the 25 from Holborn to Stratford and the 134 from Warren Street/Tottenham Court Road to where it meets a Superloop route. The X68 would need to become an all-day route in both directions too, which I think would be well justified anyway. Who knows. many of those passengers who've stopped using the 25 since the stupid shortening a while back might even return. The PVRs of the combined express/ordinary routes needn't be much above current arrangements, if at all.

 

[Wolfie]

It strikes me, on reflection, that seeing as how the 607 and X68 are to be integrated into the Superloop concept, that further 'straight line' express routes should be considered from central London to northern and eastern parts of Superloop territory e.g. express versions of the 25 from Holborn to Stratford and the 134 from Warren Street/Tottenham Court Road to where it meets a Superloop route. The X68 would need to become an all-day route in both directions too, which I think would be well justified anyway. Who knows. many of those passengers who've stopped using the 25 since the stupid shortening a while back might even return. The PVRs of the combined express/ordinary routes needn't be much above current arrangements, if at all.

My understanding is that Superloop is intended to provide missing transport links. Your proposal for the 25 would duplicate the Central line and merely cost TfL fares revenue. As such it won't and indeed shouldn't happen.

 

[PGAT]

It strikes me, on reflection, that seeing as how the 607 and X68 are to be integrated into the Superloop concept, that further 'straight line' express routes should be considered from central London to northern and eastern parts of Superloop territory e.g. express versions of the 25 from Holborn to Stratford and the 134 from Warren Street/Tottenham Court Road to where it meets a Superloop route. The X68 would need to become an all-day route in both directions too, which I think would be well justified anyway. Who knows. many of those passengers who've stopped using the 25 since the stupid shortening a while back might even return. The PVRs of the combined express/ordinary routes needn't be much above current arrangements, if at all.

I heavily doubt the X68 could justify off-peak services. Because its an express service, connections are rather limited and only really are useful to 9-5 commuters.

 

[Busaholic]

I heavily doubt the X68 could justify off-peak services. Because its an express service, connections are rather limited and only really are useful to 9-5 commuters.

It could be adapted in some way. The 607 and 427 were formed out of the 207 just as the X68, the 168 and 468 emanated from the 68. Offpeak, a definite routeing would have to be part of it, with (possibly) a fixed stop at Brixton Station or Camberwell Green.

My understanding is that Superloop is intended to provide missing transport links. Your proposal for the 25 would duplicate the Central line and merely cost TfL fares revenue. As such it won't and indeed shouldn't happen.

You're missing my point, which is intended to query why the X68 and 607 are included in the concept at all other than some bureaucratic 'tidying up' obsession at City Hall. I'm not actively advocating the routes I mentioned, except I do strongly feel the Thornton Heath to Knights Hill corridor is deserving of receiving much better and quicker bus links in this railway-deprived area.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I heavily doubt the X68 could justify off-peak services. Because its an express service, connections are rather limited and only really are useful to 9-5 commuters.

And it's not an express in the sense of limited stop (as the new SL routes round the suburbs are planned to be) - it's an end-to-end route; after a handful of pick-ups in the centre of an evening, it's then non-stop all the way down to Croydon. It's a very different concept of "express" from the main SL routes, in more ways than one. It seems a bit false to include it in their numbering - or maybe the idea is to number anything out of the ordinary as an SL asap, to get the SL idea promoted!

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm told the operator has managed to remove the crosslinking with the 188 at no cost to PVR thus allowing a dedicated fleet to be branded.

 

[busesrusuk]

LOTS are reporting both changes:

London Omnibus Traction Society

Britain's biggest bus enthusiasts' group.

www.lots.org.uk

I thought I had seen it somewhere ...

 

[Simon75]

Ignoring the X239/SL4 which is going to start at least a year later than all of the other routes, I think this is the best route I can work out using current info available:

Start at West Croydon 5:50am, X68/SL6 to Russell Square, walk to TCR, Elizabeth Line to Abbey Wood, any bus to Thamesmead, SL3 to Bromley, SL5 to West Croydon, X26/SL7 to Heathrow Central, X140/SL9 to Harrow, SL10 to North Finchley, SL1 to Walthamstow, SL2 to North Woolwich, 474 to Custom House, Elizabeth Line to Bond Street, Central Line to Shepherd's Bush, 607/SL8 to Uxbridge, finish in Uxbridge.

Obviously there are no timetables for most of the routes yet so I can't work out if this is feasible in one day. The 5:50 start time is assuming the X68/SL6 timetable is the same as now when all of the routes are running.

What's TCR ?

 

[mugam4]

What's TCR ?

Tottenham Court Road

 

[Mikey C]

My understanding is that Superloop is intended to provide missing transport links. Your proposal for the 25 would duplicate the Central line and merely cost TfL fares revenue. As such it won't and indeed shouldn't happen.

But then all bus routes partially duplicate rail routes, whether TfL or NR. Without the X68 presumably the passengers would take NR services into London, or a bus to Brixton for the Victoria Line.

 

[Edvid]

Any recent developments or findings accrued from the six-month pre-service trial of the converted-to-electric New Routemaster?

 

[duncanp]

But then all bus routes partially duplicate rail routes, whether TfL or NR. Without the X68 presumably the passengers would take NR services into London, or a bus to Brixton for the Victoria Line.

And some people will use buses like the 25 to travel to the nearest railway or tube station for onward connections.

 

[Via Bank]

But then all bus routes partially duplicate rail routes, whether TfL or NR. Without the X68 presumably the passengers would take NR services into London, or a bus to Brixton for the Victoria Line.

The X68 is slightly different in that it serves a rail desert in Upper Norwood where the nearest railway station may be a mile or more away, with a big hill in the way. And once you do get there, the service is less frequent & dumps you in Victoria, leaving you to get one or two tube lines again to reach your ultimate destination. So not only is it maybe more expensive than a single bus fare, there's also a convenience aspect.

Compare to route 25 where yes, there's clearly some demand to ride end-to-end to save money, but there are also significantly better alternatives to the 25 (Central line, Elizabeth line, District line, CS2 for the last mile from the station etc.) that are faster and more cost-effective than an express bus would be able to achieve.

 

[PGAT]

But then all bus routes partially duplicate rail routes, whether TfL or NR. Without the X68 presumably the passengers would take NR services into London, or a bus to Brixton for the Victoria Line.

Duplicating rail routes isn’t a bad thing as it offers a reliable alternative during disruption. Route 470 was a massive help for travelling between Cheam and Sutton today, for example

 

[MotCO]

Any recent developments or findings accrued from the six-month pre-service trial of the converted-to-electric New Routemaster?

According to London Vehicle Finder, LT11 went missing between the middle of March and the beginning of June, then was in service in most days in June, but has not appeared since 6 July since working a full days shift the previous day.

 

[Edvid]

Ah, so I guess TfL aren't yet ready to decide whether or not a conversion of (up to) 997 NRMs is economically viable.

 

[Busaholic]

And it's not an express in the sense of limited stop (as the new SL routes round the suburbs are planned to be) - it's an end-to-end route; after a handful of pick-ups in the centre of an evening, it's then non-stop all the way down to Croydon. It's a very different concept of "express" from the main SL routes, in more ways than one. It seems a bit false to include it in their numbering - or maybe the idea is to number anything out of the ordinary as an SL asap, to get the SL idea promoted!

Absolutely right, not only false but counter-productive though as it immediately devalues the Superloop 'brand.' The X68 is what it is, the answer to a specific passenger need in an area poorly served by Southern Railway and ignored by the Underground. Why can't it retain its unique status?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Absolutely right, not only false but counter-productive though as it immediately devalues the Superloop 'brand.' The X68 is what it is, the answer to a specific passenger need in an area poorly served by Southern Railway and ignored by the Underground. Why can't it retain its unique status?

And the X68 was born when the 68 was split into the 68 and 68A (which became the 468), to retain through journeys to Central London during the peaks

 

[Edsmith]

And the X68 was born when the 68 was split into the 68 and 68A (which became the 468), to retain through journeys to Central London during the peaks

The X68 began in 1986 when the 68 was converted to OPO

 

[alholmes]

Consultations and plans for SL2 (Walthamstow - North Woolwich), SL3 (Thamesmead - Bromley) and SL5 (Bromley - Croydon) have been published today at https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/

Personally, I think SL2 should include Custom House to give interchange to the Elizabeth Line (a handy way of reaching Abbey Wood on the SL3).

 

[Busaholic]

Consultations and plans for SL2 (Walthamstow - North Woolwich), SL3 (Thamesmead - Bromley) and SL5 (Bromley - Croydon) have been published today at https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/

Personally, I think SL2 should include Custom House to give interchange to the Elizabeth Line (a handy way of reaching Abbey Wood on the SL3).

I hope you suggest it as part of the consultation.

 

[317 forever]

Ah, so I guess TfL aren't yet ready to decide whether or not a conversion of (up to) 997 NRMs is economically viable.

Judging by how all current tender results involving LTs are for 5 year terms, I reckon they will remain hybrid and be withdrawn around the end of those 5 year terms or once their replacement vehicles enter service.

 

[Snow1964]

Judging by how all current tender results involving LTs are for 5 year terms, I reckon they will remain hybrid and be withdrawn around the end of those 5 year terms or once their replacement vehicles enter service.

I think it will come down to potential subsidy and cost of conversion.

At the moment, TfL are issuing contracts for the LTs ending in 2029 or early 2030. The TfL Board papers make it clear the aim is to be zero emission by 2034 latest, with aspirations for it to be by 2030 (if someone else, eg Government etc funds it).

But the earlier LTs are already 10 years old, so if electric conversion does happen, they might only do those below a certain age. Economically to justify the conversion they're probably going to want at least 8 more years use, so they're either going to have to extend the nominal 14 years (which was expected life quoted when they were ordered), or restrict the number converted.

 

[Busaholic]

I see the SL5 is taking an interesting route out of Bromley, via Chinese Garage, Eden Park and Royal Bethlem Hospital, thus avoiding the centre of West Wickham. Chinese Garage is not too far from Beckenham Junction, and even nearer where the X26 used to pass through in its Bromley-bound days. The 119 doesn't receive any cut in service either.

 

[MotCO]

I see the SL5 is taking an interesting route out of Bromley, via Chinese Garage, Eden Park and Royal Bethlem Hospital, thus avoiding the centre of West Wickham.

Does this also avoid the potential punters?

(So the proposal initially follows the 358?)

 

[Busaholic]

Does this also avoid the potential punters?

I'm not sure! My interpretation would incline to the thought that, more than the other routes on the loop itself, many passengers are expected to travel almost end-to-end.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

What is the likely operators and vehicles for the Queens Park - Harrow block on a weekday? Its starting 23rd July running through to 30th or so July

Not my area of expertise so would like to know what might appear on the 718/719, I assume its something from Metroline?

 

[Deerfold]

What is the likely operators and vehicles for the Queens Park - Harrow block on a weekday? Its starting 23rd July running through to 30th or so July

Not my area of expertise so would like to know what might appear on the 718/719, I assume its something from Metroline?

All I know is Reading Buses have the tender, but I'm unaware of any subcontracting.

 

[Bishopstone]

The SL2 will be pretty slow from Gants Hill through to Barking, via Cranbrook Road and the traffic nightmare of Ilford Lane. I’d have been tempted to route it via the North Circular Road, coming off at both the Ilford and Barking junctions to serve the nearest convenient bus stop (for connections), then straight back on to the A406.