London Buses Discussion

[Goldfish62]

Maybe that's the plan, empty it out, get rid of the old legacy staff on ex Tower Transit and First conditions. Then move Park Royal routes into it. Park Royal (Atlas Road) is on remainder of shortish lease pending site redevelopment.

London Transit Ltd, with its sole garage Westbourne Park, is a complete financial basket case. Something has got to give. I don't disagree with your suggested scenario.

 

[Cesarcollie]

London Transit Ltd, with its sole garage Westbourne Park, is a complete financial basket case. Something has got to give. I don't disagree with your suggested scenario.

I believe now wholly owned by RATP Dev London?

 

[Simon75]

In addition to the SL5, today was also the first day in service for GB Kite Electroliners; not on the E7, but on rail replacement duties in lieu of Elizabeth line services.

(Not my pictures)

(Saturday 3rd February 2024) Transport UK | Wright GB Kite

LV73FHE 1708 is seen on stand at Stratford City waiting to depart on rail replacement service C (UL18) to Romford, this batch of buses are new for the E7 however have strayed onto rail replacement before running on route E7

www.flickr.com

Transport UK 1709 LV73FHF Romford 03-02-2024

Explore Dave Heath. London & Provincial Bus Photos' 23924 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Do all news buses have LED displays, not roller blinds?

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone else think the Superloop SL5 livery is reminiscent of the first (and infinitely preferable imo) Croydon Tramlink livery? Not sure I liked the sounds emanating from a couple of the buses I watched YouTube videos of, though!

 

[Goldfish62]

I believe now wholly owned by RATP Dev London?

Yes, but still a separate company from London United and London Sovereign. RATP bought Tower Transit's holding for £1 last September.

 

[Edvid]

On that topic, the 2022 accounts for RATP Dev Transit London and its three subsidiaries were published on Companies House last autumn. They were collectively subject to an impairment loss of almost £63 million for that year; the outcome of RATP's strategic review can't be far off now.

Sovereign / United (dated 11 October 2023)
Transit / RATP Dev Transit London (dated 23 November 2023)

Do all news buses have LED displays, not roller blinds?

Not all. There are 73-reg Streetdecks with blinds on the 199.

 

[Goldfish62]

Do all news buses have LED displays, not roller blinds?

As I understand it, it's currently left to the operators to choose. Only Stagecoach have opted to continue with roller blinds.

It just goes to show how different managers have different views. In the past Stagecoach London was one of the most vociferous about wanting to change to LEDs.

Anyone else think the Superloop SL5 livery is reminiscent of the first (and infinitely preferable imo) Croydon Tramlink livery? Not sure I liked the sounds emanating from a couple of the buses I watched YouTube videos of, though!

Yes, that and NBC dual purpose livery!

 

[Bishopstone]

Sampled the SL5 today, mid-morning between Croydon and Bromley in grey weather that wouldn’t have encouraged unnecessary travel.

My favourite seat on dual door, single deck buses is nearside, directly behind the rear door. However, a gang of sharp-elbowed twirlies barged on first, denying this meek youth, and I had to settle for a seat further forward, which I then realised was next to the irritating sticker/vinyl logo applied across the window.

Stupid window blockage aside, all was positive. We loaded circa 25-30 maximum, between Shirley Library and Bromley South, and few of the other passengers looked like they were travelling for the experience alone. I thought this was a decent haul for week one, in February.

The chosen route was reasonably free-flowing, and is perhaps the best way to approach Bromley town centre without getting held-up unduly. The end-to-end running time was 35 minutes, compared to a timetabled 50 minutes on the 119 between the same points, at the same time of day: a useful saving.

I’ll be interested to see how this builds over the next few months.

 

[Busaholic]

Sampled the SL5 today, mid-morning between Croydon and Bromley in grey weather that wouldn’t have encouraged unnecessary travel.

My favourite seat on dual door, single deck buses is nearside, directly behind the rear door. However, a gang of sharp-elbowed twirlies barged on first, denying this meek youth, and I had to settle for a seat further forward, which I then realised was next to the irritating sticker/vinyl logo applied across the window.

Stupid window blockage aside, all was positive. We loaded circa 25-30 maximum, between Shirley Library and Bromley South, and few of the other passengers looked like they were travelling for the experience alone. I thought this was a decent haul for week one, in February.

The chosen route was reasonably free-flowing, and is perhaps the best way to approach Bromley town centre without getting held-up unduly. The end-to-end running time was 35 minutes, compared to a timetabled 50 minutes on the 119 between the same points, at the same time of day: a useful saving.

I’ll be interested to see how this builds over the next few months.

That's all very encouraging to those of us who favour bus travel, other perhaps than those whose political sympathies prejudice them against these new routes.

 

[alex397]

In regards to the SL5, Roger French pointed out in Geoff Marshall’s video on the new route, that it’s now the quickest way to get from the Bromley area to the Brighton mainline, rather than catching the train into central London. Thats certainly a good thing to hear, and exactly why we need these express bus routes. New express routes like these should have been introduced years ago, but it’s good it’s happening now.

 

[MotCO]

In regards to the SL5, Roger French pointed out in Geoff Marshall’s video on the new route, that it’s now the quickest way to get from the Bromley area to the Brighton mainline, rather than catching the train into central London. Thats certainly a good thing to hear, and exactly why we need these express bus routes. New express routes like these should have been introduced years ago, but it’s good it’s happening now.

The Green Line 726 (and 725) used to provide a service which covered the SL5 and SL7, but was cut back and back until it was only Croydon - Heathrow. Presumably it was cut back because there was insufficient demand, so what's now changed?

The northern equivalent (724) still runs, but goes a bit further north than Superloop.

 

[Goldfish62]

In regards to the SL5, Roger French pointed out in Geoff Marshall’s video on the new route, that it’s now the quickest way to get from the Bromley area to the Brighton mainline, rather than catching the train into central London. Thats certainly a good thing to hear, and exactly why we need these express bus routes. New express routes like these should have been introduced years ago, but it’s good it’s happening now.

And unlike some comments on this thread that no one is going to use it he and other industry commentators are clearly of the opinion it's going to be very well used.

The Green Line 726 (and 725) used to provide a service which covered the SL5 and SL7, but was cut back and back until it was only Croydon - Heathrow. Presumably it was cut back because there was insufficient demand, so what's now changed?

What's changed? Increased demand.

Why was it cut back? Despite several operators trying their best such a long route was impossible to operate to anything like an acceptable standard of reliability.

And to pre-empt another potential question. Traffic levels have worsened considerably over recent decades, hence what was possible to operate half a century ago isn't now.

 

[Deerfold]

The Green Line 726 (and 725) used to provide a service which covered the SL5 and SL7, but was cut back and back until it was only Croydon - Heathrow. Presumably it was cut back because there was insufficient demand, so what's now changed?

When the Green Line ran, it was hourly (maybe half hourly at some times). After Green Line, as the 726 and X26 it was very unreliable - I was involved in the early Countdown system which involved checking all the routes it was introduced on. It wasn't unknown for two buses to be following one anther despite being timetabled an hour apart.

 

[MotCO]

When the Green Line ran, it was hourly (maybe half hourly at some times). After Green Line, as the 726 and X26 it was very unreliable - I was involved in the early Countdown system which involved checking all the routes it was introduced on. It wasn't unknown for two buses to be following one anther despite being timetabled an hour apart.

Nothing seems to be new. A couple of weeks ago, I saw three SL7s within sight of each other at New Malden, at around 10.30, all going to Croydon with a fourth about 10 minutes behind.

I think the 725 and 726 were both hourly, making a joint half hour service.

 

[Sussexwatch]

Nothing seems to be new. A couple of weeks ago, I saw three SL7s within sight of each other at New Malden, at around 10.30, all going to Croydon with a fourth about 10 minutes behind.

I think the 725 and 726 were both hourly, making a joint half hour service.

They were indeed both hourly, I often used them in 1977/8 when I lived in Chislehurst and found them generally quite reliable. I mostly used them in the evenings to and from Croydon. They were well used but I don't recall ever seeing one full at any time of day.

 

[Edsmith]

Sampled the SL5 today, mid-morning between Croydon and Bromley in grey weather that wouldn’t have encouraged unnecessary travel.

My favourite seat on dual door, single deck buses is nearside, directly behind the rear door. However, a gang of sharp-elbowed twirlies barged on first, denying this meek youth, and I had to settle for a seat further forward, which I then realised was next to the irritating sticker/vinyl logo applied across the window.

Stupid window blockage aside, all was positive. We loaded circa 25-30 maximum, between Shirley Library and Bromley South, and few of the other passengers looked like they were travelling for the experience alone. I thought this was a decent haul for week one, in February.

The chosen route was reasonably free-flowing, and is perhaps the best way to approach Bromley town centre without getting held-up unduly. The end-to-end running time was 35 minutes, compared to a timetabled 50 minutes on the 119 between the same points, at the same time of day: a useful saving.

I’ll be interested to see how this builds over the next few months.

The 119 is timetabled to do Bromley North to East Croydon in 45 minutes off peak. The SL5 I travelled on did it 42 minutes.

 

[Bishopstone]

The 119 is timetabled to do Bromley North to East Croydon in 45 minutes off peak. The SL5 I travelled on did it 42 minutes.

The times I quoted for both routes were from Croydon town centre, not East Croydon station, but traffic being what it is, journey times for 119 or SL5 will become extended on occasion. I reckon the SL5 will be able to sustain a 10-20 minute advantage quite reliably, but we’ll see.

 

[Busaholic]

They were indeed both hourly, I often used them in 1977/8 when I lived in Chislehurst and found them generally quite reliable. I mostly used them in the evenings to and from Croydon. They were well used but I don't recall ever seeing one full at any time of day.

Well, I did certainly did, firstly in 1967/8 when I worked at Beckenham Library and in 1978/9 when I co-owned and worked in a shop just by Shortlands Station. Peak hour 'extras' were scheduled on the Croydon to Dartford section in the 1960s, providing a ten minute service at the height of the peak, and in the late '70s London Country's sole remaining RF performed unscheduled extras, always on the 725 iirc.

In regards to the SL5, Roger French pointed out in Geoff Marshall’s video on the new route, that it’s now the quickest way to get from the Bromley area to the Brighton mainline, rather than catching the train into central London. Thats certainly a good thing to hear, and exactly why we need these express bus routes. New express routes like these should have been introduced years ago, but it’s good it’s happening now.

I was travelling regularly on the 119 from my family home just off Westmoreland Road, Bromley, to East Croydon and then Brighton back in the sixties. I'd have only travelled via Victoria if I was very late back and needed to get the 00.25 slow Victoria to Bromley South. Roger French is usually proved right in the long term!

 

[MotCO]

and in the late '70s London Country's sole remaining RF performed unscheduled extras,

RF202?

 

[Goldfish62]

The 119 is timetabled to do Bromley North to East Croydon in 45 minutes off peak. The SL5 I travelled on did it 42 minutes.

So you're comparing the scheduled running time on one route with the actual running time you had on the other route.

Comparing both routes on BusTimes around midday today the SL5 was doing Bromley North to East Croydon about 15 minutes quicker than the 119. That's a 30%+ saving.

 

[Busaholic]

RF202?

Indeed, out of Northfleet. Saw it many times, always too busy to ride on it!

So you're comparing the scheduled running time on one route with the actual running time you had on the other route.

Comparing both routes on BusTimes around midday today the SL5 was doing Bromley North to East Croydon about 15 minutes quicker than the 119. That's a 30%+ saving.

119s often get held up on the Colonnades to East Croydon section too, meaning more chances of bunching and gaps than should be the case with the shorter SL5. I suspect the SL5 may well be the most needed-by-passengers of the entirely new routes, though the SL2 shows some promise too.

 

[Goldfish62]

I suspect the SL5 may well be the most needed-by-passengers of the entirely new routes, though the SL2 shows some promise too.

Yes indeed, as pointed out by experienced industry people and industry commentators, despite efforts on this thread to try to assert the complete opposite!

 

[Edsmith]

So you're comparing the scheduled running time on one route with the actual running time you had on the other route.

Comparing both routes on BusTimes around midday today the SL5 was doing Bromley North to East Croydon about 15 minutes quicker than the 119. That's a 30%+ saving.

The SL5 should be 14 minutes quicker although whether that actually happens in practice is another matter. If I were waiting for a bus from Bromley to Croydon or vice versa I'd get whatever came first.

 

[PGAT]

The SL5 should be 14 minutes quicker although whether that actually happens in practice is another matter. If I were waiting for a bus from Bromley to Croydon or vice versa I'd get whatever came first.

The SL5 has an advantage in that sense, since although it has the same frequency as the 119 it's also going to be more reliable (I am unaware of any curtailments on the SL5 as of yet)

 

[Goldfish62]

The SL5 should be 14 minutes quicker although whether that actually happens in practice is another matter. If I were waiting for a bus from Bromley to Croydon or vice versa I'd get whatever came first.

I've just evidenced two journeys showing the time difference actually happening in practice! What more evidence do you want?!

 

[Edsmith]

I've just evidenced two journeys showing the time difference actually happening in practice! What more evidence do you want?!

Evidence? This isn't a court of law, I'd rather hear real life experiences.

 

[Deerfold]

Evidence? This isn't a court of law, I'd rather hear real life experiences.

Evidence is used to support good decisions and argue against bad ones. It shouldn't be confined to a court of law.

They were quoting the actual times achieved. How is that not real life?

 

[Goldfish62]

Evidence? This isn't a court of law, I'd rather hear real life experiences.

So are you saying that Bustimes.org is incorrect?

You may have an agenda, for whatever reason, to try to prove that the SL5 is no quicker than the 119, but surely the data produced by Bustimes is good enough rather than having to go out there and personally ride on every trip? Or is it a case of because the evidence doesn't fit your argument you'll decide to ignore it?

 

[Edsmith]

Evidence is used to support good decisions and argue against bad ones. It shouldn't be confined to a court of law.

They were quoting the actual times achieved. How is that not real life?

And many other journeys have taken a lot longer than 30 minutes but of course we don't want to hear about those do we?

I can't see Superloop as anything more than a quickfix bodge job from a mayor who is desperate to deflect attention away from the ULEZ expansion with an election coming up. I'd much rather see something more long term like Tramlink extensions to Bromley and Sutton and a lot more investment in orbital rail links as is happening in other capital cities around the world. Express bus services are generally just rail replacement services, the Croydon to New Addington express bus services were withdrawn once Tramlink opened because there was no need for them anymore.

We'll see what happens after the mayoral election but I don't see the 119 and SL5 surviving in their current form in the long term.

 

[MotCO]

We'll see what happens after the mayoral election but I don't see the 119 and SL5 surviving in their current form in the long term.

in what sense? Revised routes? Reduced timetables? Route cancelled?