London Buses Discussion

[YorkRailFan]

Mayor unveils plan to create 'Superloop 2' bus network if re-elected

New routes would reach into areas previously untouched by Superloop services, including Edgware and Havering

www.standard.co.uk

Sadiq Khan has unveiled plans for a second Superloop network of express bus services as part of his re-election bid.
If granted a third term at City Hall, the capital’s Labour mayor is proposing to double the number of Superloop services from 10 to 20. The new collection of routes, dubbed ‘Superloop 2’, will include the recently announced ‘Bakerloop’ service, designed to provide an alternative to the unfunded £10bn Bakerloo line Tube extension.
The proposed Superloop 2 routes, all subject to consultation, are:

• Harrow to Barnet, via Edgware
• Barnet to Stratford, via Enfield and Chingford
• Leytonstone to South Havering, via Gants Hill and Romford
• North Greenwich to Thamesmead, via Woolwich
• ‘Bakerloop line’: Elephant and Castle to Lewisham, via Old Kent Road and New Cross
• Streatham to Eltham, via Tulse Hill and Lee
• Richmond to Wimbledon, via Roehampton
• Ealing Broadway to Kingston, via Great West Road and Richmond
• Hounslow to Hammersmith, via Great West Road
• Hendon to Ealing Broadway, via Brent Cross and Hanger Lane

Mr Khan said: “The success of the Superloop is one of my proudest achievements as mayor, connecting Londoners to key locations in outer London and getting more people onto public transport. It has been nothing short of a game changer - making journeys quicker and more convenient.
“The proposed new routes will all be subject to consultation with Londoners, but I’ve asked Transport for London to start looking at how they could best serve key locations – whether popular town centres, other transport hubs or public services like hospitals.”
When the Superloop was first announced by the mayor last year, backed by £6million of funding, it was attacked by his Tory critics as “nothing more than a repackaging of existing routes and vague promises” and “a microscopic level of investment”.
“The proposed new routes will all be subject to consultation with Londoners, but I’ve asked Transport for London to start looking at how they could best serve key locations – whether popular town centres, other transport hubs or public services like hospitals.”
When the Superloop was first announced by the mayor last year, backed by £6million of funding, it was attacked by his Tory critics as “nothing more than a repackaging of existing routes and vague promises” and “a microscopic level of investment”.
It is not yet clear whether any of the Superloop 2 routes will use existing services, but the mayor’s campaign team pointed out that even the re-badged routes have seen increased ridership.
For example, the SL7 – which runs from Heathrow to West Croydon – saw a 56 per cent ridership rise between June and November following its rebrand and frequency boost.

Khan is proposing a Superloop 2 if reelected on May 2nd, the "Bakerloop" service is part of this. The services won't be in a loop shape unlike most of the Superloop 1 services. I particularly like the Richmond-Wimbledon service, as the train is inconvenient for this service and I believe there is a gap in the afternoon on the bus service. These bus services will provide express connections between different tube branches which is handy for those who need to get between two different branches of the Tube. Overall, I like this idea as it will provide new express connections.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Mayor unveils plan to create 'Superloop 2' bus network if re-elected

New routes would reach into areas previously untouched by Superloop services, including Edgware and Havering

www.standard.co.uk

Khan is proposing a Superloop 2 if reelected on May 2nd, the "Bakerloop" service is part of this. The services won't be in a loop shape unlike most of the Superloop 1 services. I particularly like the Richmond-Wimbledon service, as the train is inconvenient for this service and I believe there is a gap in the afternoon on the bus service. These bus services will provide express connections between different tube branches which is handy for those who need to get between two different branches of the Tube. Overall, I like this idea as it will provide new express connections.

I also like the idea. So from that list, it's not actually a 2nd loop at all but, as you say, turning the Superloop into a full network of express buses. That does have the potential to transform the London bus network for the better. My only teensy complaint is that if that was the plan, then 'Superloop' really wasn't an accurate name for it.

 

[H&I]

Mayor unveils plan to create 'Superloop 2' bus network if re-elected

New routes would reach into areas previously untouched by Superloop services, including Edgware and Havering

www.standard.co.uk

Khan is proposing a Superloop 2 if reelected on May 2nd, the "Bakerloop" service is part of this. The services won't be in a loop shape unlike most of the Superloop 1 services. I particularly like the Richmond-Wimbledon service, as the train is inconvenient for this service and I believe there is a gap in the afternoon on the bus service. These bus services will provide express connections between different tube branches which is handy for those who need to get between two different branches of the Tube. Overall, I like this idea as it will provide new express connections.

I love the idea of more express bus routes in London! Since moving to London, I have held the view that there are too few fast bus routes, especially in outer London. Expanding the Superloop network would go some way towards fixing this problem.

 

[LUYMun]

How about TFL transform the former X68 route to run all-day in both directions? It's quite an anomaly running peak flows only the way I see it.

 

[eh_oh]

How about TFL transform the former X68 route to run all-day in both directions? It's quite an anomaly running peak flows only the way I see it.

There's surely not the demand?

 

[HullRailMan]

Is there any evidence that these routes are actually increasing ridership
overall rather than just shifting passengers from existing routes? I note that Khan always quotes the increase in passengers on the X26/SL7 while not pointing out the there was also a doubling of frequency which will inevitably increase ridership.
I’d also much rather these routes were referred to as ‘limited stop’ rather than express.

 

[H&I]

I’d also much rather these routes were referred to as ‘limited stop’ rather than express.

Express seems to be the more common term describing this type of bus route in the UK as it is more widely understood.

 

[PGAT]

Wait is it true that the SL7 will be cut back to Sutton and SL5 will be extended to cover for it?

 

[sprunt]

If you get your sums right in London, then the risk (insufficient passengers travelling) is low, so your margins can be low.

I thought the revenue risk was with TfL for London buses?

 

[Deerfold]

Wait is it true that the SL7 will be cut back to Sutton and SL5 will be extended to cover for it?

Where did you hear this?

 

[PGAT]

Where did you hear this?

Its on the map Sadiq posted on Twitter

 

[Bishopstone]

Leytonstone to the Rainham area via Eastern Avenue (A12) and Upper Rainham Road would be relatively swift. A promising proposal, albeit with quite a lot of abstraction from the existing route 66, I expect.

Stratford to Barnet sounds like a long journey, whichever routing is chosen - I hope the drivers have strong bladders!

 

[greenline712]

I thought the revenue risk was with TfL for London buses?

That's what I said ... if no passengers travel, then the operator gets paid the same mileage rate.

 

[johncrossley]

Is there any evidence that these routes are actually increasing ridership

The more pertinent question is what could this money have been spent on if it wasn't spent on limited stop services? Ken Livingstone wasn't a fan of limited stop buses and presided over cuts to the 726 before it became the X26. So when there was huge investment, express buses were not a priority.

The politics of the situation is that spending money on improving existing bus routes wouldn't have been noticed. By contrast, the Superloop scheme is highly visible to voters in outer London. It is almost impossible for there *not* to be *some* increase in ridership as a result of Superloop. But maybe even better increases could have been made by spending the money elsewhere.

 

[MotCO]

Wait is it true that the SL7 will be cut back to Sutton and SL5 will be extended to cover for it?

That would equalise the lengths of the routes, but I would have thought Bromley to Croydon and Croydon to Kingston and beyond) were the main traffic flows.

 

[Bishopstone]

The politics of the situation is that spending money on improving existing bus routes wouldn't have been noticed. By contrast, the Superloop scheme is highly visible to voters in outer London. It is almost impossible for there *not* to be *some* increase in ridership as a result of Superloop. But maybe even better increases could have been made by spending the money elsewhere.

Maybe. I'm not a huge admirer of the Mayor, but I have some respect for decision-makers who crack-on and deliver schemes like Superloop at pace, versus appointing committees or consultants to agonise for months/years over ten alternative ways of spending the money.

And if the objective is to encourage modal shift from cars, then the visibility of Superloop in the suburbs has to be an advantage versus (eg) adding one bus per hour to a selection of routes.

 

[PGAT]

That would equalise the lengths of the routes, but I would have thought Bromley to Croydon and Croydon to Kingston and beyond) were the main traffic flows.

It also raises questions about how the SL5 will cope. Right now it's short and sweet but it is already very crowded

 

[Deerfold]

It also raises questions about how the SL5 will cope. Right now it's short and sweet but it is already very crowded

So long as it's not simply a misprint on a first draft.

 

[HullRailMan]

Maybe. I'm not a huge admirer of the Mayor, but I have some respect for decision-makers who crack-on and deliver schemes like Superloop at pace, versus appointing committees or consultants to agonise for months/years over ten alternative ways of spending the money.

And if the objective is to encourage modal shift from cars, then the visibility of Superloop in the suburbs has to be an advantage versus (eg) adding one bus per hour to a selection of routes.

On the one hand I agree that someone who is innovative can be admired. On the other hand, the public’s money isn’t there just to be spend to make it look like you’re doing something. The effectiveness and value of money of public investment needs to be measured to see if it has been a success and should be kept or even expanded. That said, defining ‘success’ or ‘Value for money’ is opening another can of worms.

I’m all for service improvements and encouraging modal shift as long as the investment is effective and achieves something.

 

[Busaholic]

It also raises questions about how the SL5 will cope. Right now it's short and sweet but it is already very crowded

It would also mean single, rather than double, deckers on the Croydon to Sutton section. Where in Sutton would the two routes terminate?

 

[PGAT]

It would also mean single, rather than double, deckers on the Croydon to Sutton section. Where in Sutton would the two routes terminate?

The SL7 could set down at Sutton Police Station, stand at Chalk Pit Way and pick up at Grove Road. I suppose the SL5 could do the inverse movement or go to Sutton Station

 

[London Trains]

The SL7 could set down at Sutton Police Station, stand at Chalk Pit Way and pick up at Grove Road. I suppose the SL5 could do the inverse movement or go to Sutton Station

Makes more sense for the SL7 to go to Sutton Station, to connect with the trains to West Croydon (which would be faster than the existing SL7 even with the interchange time at Sutton Station).

Both would easily fit on the stand at Sutton Station providing the 164 is extended to Belmont as planned, so I don't think a choice needs to be made anyway.

 

[PGAT]

Makes more sense for the SL7 to go to Sutton Station, to connect with the trains to West Croydon (which would be faster than the existing SL7 even with the interchange time at Sutton Station).

Both would easily fit on the stand at Sutton Station providing the 164 is extended to Belmont as planned, so I don't think a choice needs to be made anyway.

164's extension is not a given at the moment because it would be serving an unbuilt hospital along a road that is probably overbussed

 

[Bedford OB]

Maybe. I'm not a huge admirer of the Mayor, but I have some respect for decision-makers who crack-on and deliver schemes like Superloop at pace, versus appointing committees or consultants to agonise for months/years over ten alternative ways of spending the money.

And if the objective is to encourage modal shift from cars, then the visibility of Superloop in the suburbs has to be an advantage versus (eg) adding one bus per hour to a selection of routes.

I am afraid I could not disagree more, exactly the opposite is happening. The reality round here is that people are abandoning rail feeder bus journeys and reverting to use their cars instead, parking in areas near rail stations, which are clogged as a result, because they are fed up with having to let overcrowded buses on the inadequate established network go, and consequently late for work.

For example, I have observed and listened to the anger of people at Barking Station watching empty and useless SL2s go up and down every morning - a politically motivated waste of a large fleet of double deck vehicles - while they have been waiting and waiting to try to get on a bus. A specific and aggravating example of this classic penny pinching on one hand and massive waste on the other has been with the effect of roadworks at Romford Town Centre; the headways on the 5 were widened, whereas in the past a bus would have been instered to maintain the service, just causing the inadequacy down the route to be even worse. And that is by no means the only example in this area.

 

[PGAT]

I am afraid I could not disagree more, exactly the opposite is happening. The reality round here is that people are abandoning rail feeder bus journeys and reverting to use their cars instead, parking in areas near rail stations, which are clogged as a result, because they are fed up with having to let overcrowded buses on the inadequate established network go, and consequently late for work.

For example, I have observed and listened to the anger of people at Barking Station watching empty and useless SL2s go up and down every morning - a politically motivated waste of a large fleet of double deck vehicles - while they have been waiting and waiting to try to get on a bus. A specific and aggravating example of this classic penny pinching on one hand and massive waste on the other has been with the effect of roadworks at Romford Town Centre; the headways on the 5 were widened, whereas in the past a bus would have been instered to maintain the service, just causing the inadequacy down the route to be even worse. And that is by no means the only example in this area.

I think this varies from place to place. I've never had heard fuss when using the SL5, SL6 or SL1

 

[Edsmith]

Is there any evidence that these routes are actually increasing ridership
overall rather than just shifting passengers from existing routes? I note that Khan always quotes the increase in passengers on the X26/SL7 while not pointing out the there was also a doubling of frequency which will inevitably increase ridership.
I’d also much rather these routes were referred to as ‘limited stop’ rather than express.

I've wondered the same, obviously loadings will increase if the frequency is doubled but I suspect it's mostly people who would have previously used other routes.

How about TFL transform the former X68 route to run all-day in both directions? It's quite an anomaly running peak flows only the way I see it.

It's a commuter service, just because it's been included in Superloop don't assume that it will become an all day service.

 

[Busaholic]

I am afraid I could not disagree more, exactly the opposite is happening. The reality round here is that people are abandoning rail feeder bus journeys and reverting to use their cars instead, parking in areas near rail stations, which are clogged as a result, because they are fed up with having to let overcrowded buses on the inadequate established network go, and consequently late for work.

For example, I have observed and listened to the anger of people at Barking Station watching empty and useless SL2s go up and down every morning - a politically motivated waste of a large fleet of double deck vehicles - while they have been waiting and waiting to try to get on a bus. A specific and aggravating example of this classic penny pinching on one hand and massive waste on the other has been with the effect of roadworks at Romford Town Centre; the headways on the 5 were widened, whereas in the past a bus would have been instered to maintain the service, just causing the inadequacy down the route to be even worse. And that is by no means the only example in this area.

That's very interesting. The 5 is a route (I'd say the route) crying out to have the now out of favour decades-long London practice of having scheduled 'short' journeys inserted into the timetable, preferably from each end of the route. It's a longer than usual route by present-day standards, one that was created in part so that the 87 number could be transferred far away to renumber the last suffixed route, the 77A, and its present set-up is almost guaranteed to fall apart badly on a regular basis.

The SL2 to me was the most intriguing of the genuine Superloop routes, in that I didn't envisage many passengers on it making anything like the full journey. I have to say, if I was minded to go from Walthamstow to North Woolwich I'd first think of changing at Stratford, and Walthamstow to Barking is a rare radial journey that the Goblin railway line takes in its stride. If the SL2 really is carrying so few at this almost midway point in the route, it'll surely need amending once the Superloop through the Silvertown Tunnel is introduced, which itself could meet at the Greenwich end with a new express route to Thamesmead.

 

[Bedford OB]

That's very interesting. The 5 is a route (I'd say the route) crying out to have the now out of favour decades-long London practice of having scheduled 'short' journeys inserted into the timetable, preferably from each end of the route. It's a longer than usual route by present-day standards, one that was created in part so that the 87 number could be transferred far away to renumber the last suffixed route, the 77A, and its present set-up is almost guaranteed to fall apart badly on a regular basis.

The SL2 to me was the most intriguing of the genuine Superloop routes, in that I didn't envisage many passengers on it making anything like the full journey. I have to say, if I was minded to go from Walthamstow to North Woolwich I'd first think of changing at Stratford, and Walthamstow to Barking is a rare radial journey that the Goblin railway line takes in its stride. If the SL2 really is carrying so few at this almost midway point in the route, it'll surely need amending once the Superloop through the Silvertown Tunnel is introduced, which itself could meet at the Greenwich end with a new express route to Thamesmead.

I don't disagree, but there is a lot of carryover at most of the logical turning points for the 5 - Becontree Heath, Barking, East Ham, so a decent through service remains necessary as it always has. The EL2 has been strengthened in the past to address the inadequate capacity between Becontree Heath and Barking, but not sufficiently; due to continuous development and increased population and demand, there are regularly large crowds of people at stops en route who just cannot get on buses that are already full.

From my experience of using and watching the SL2, those people who do use it are just abstracted from other routes. They get it from Barking to Ilford or from Ilford to Gants Hill to avoid the intermediate stops on the other services, but their efforts are of limited benefit, especially between Barking and Ilford. because it just gets mired in the traffic and crawls along anyway. My concern, because I wouldn't trust TfL these days as far as I could throw them, is that they will start cutting other services to seek to force people on to it - they have to find some way to show off about what a success it has been. It was telling to stand at Ilford station yesterday watching SL2s towards Walthamstow picking up three or four while people piled on to the 123 like they always have.

For longer journeys, the Goblin line is a perfectly decent option since its enhancement to a 15 minute service, and it provides for a journey from Barking to Walthamstow in 15 minutes - the SL2 is scheduled for up to 14 minutes from Barking to Ilford Station alone, and that is often a fantasy. If I want to go from Ilford towards Walthamstow, it is way quicker for me to take a five minute Elizabeth Line journey to Forest Gate, cross over, and get the Goblin Line from Wanstead Park.

In response to @PGAT, I am sure what you say is right, I was not suggesting all of the Superloop routes are a waste of time. My citicism is of SL2, which in itself is an investment quite large enough in itself to fund all sorts of much more needed enhancements elsewhere in the area. But I have to say also that I have a lot of friends in the Walthamstow area, and they are pretty scathing about SL1 too.

 

[NorthKent1989]

My two cents on the proposed new Superloop routes.

North Greenwich to Thamesmead: Overkill, there are already 3 routes that traverse the NG to Woolwich corridor, and in the age of the Elizabeth line I find it hard to justify 3 routes covering this corridor, the 180 definitely didn’t need to have any changes since it’s now another 472, the 161 also isn’t needed west of Woolwich, if this express route goes ahead one route will definitely be axed and it’ll be the 472 most likely.

Eltham to Streatham: On paper looks good but let’s be honest such a route will have to use the South Circular Road which is rammed with traffic at the best of times, such a express route really wouldn’t be that much faster than a regular stopping route.

What TfL fails to understand is the demand for cross South London travel in the inner areas.

I’d rather a route that started at Thamesmead, then via Woolwich, Blackheath Sun in the Sands, A2 Road, Westhorne, Lewisham, Catford, Sydenham, Crystal Palace, then either onto Streatham or Brixton, this would ease the loads off the 54, 122 & 202 routes.

Another route could be one that parallels the 227/358 routes

 

[dodecahedron67]

My two cents on the proposed new Superloop routes.

North Greenwich to Thamesmead: Overkill, there are already 3 routes that traverse the NG to Woolwich corridor, and in the age of the Elizabeth line I find it hard to justify 3 routes covering this corridor, the 180 definitely didn’t need to have any changes since it’s now another 472, the 161 also isn’t needed west of Woolwich, if this express route goes ahead one route will definitely be axed and it’ll be the 472 most likely.

Eltham to Streatham: On paper looks good but let’s be honest such a route will have to use the South Circular Road which is rammed with traffic at the best of times, such a express route really wouldn’t be that much faster than a regular stopping route.

What TfL fails to understand is the demand for cross South London travel in the inner areas.

I’d rather a route that started at Thamesmead, then via Woolwich, Blackheath Sun in the Sands, A2 Road, Westhorne, Lewisham, Catford, Sydenham, Crystal Palace, then either onto Streatham or Brixton, this would ease the loads off the 54, 122 & 202 routes.

Another route could be one that parallels the 227/358 routes

I think an Orpington - Locksbottom - Bromley - Shortlands - Beckenham - Penge - Crystal Palace ‘express’ could do really well, or alternatively an ‘SL227’ Chislehurst - Chislehurst Station - Bickley - Bromley - Shortlands - Beckenham - Penge - Crystal Palace